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Origins and Characteristics of Wars - incl Futility

Which are common in the characteristics of war (ok to vote more than once)

  • Religion is involved

    Votes: 24 75.0%
  • Territorial expansionism is involved

    Votes: 20 62.5%
  • Payback is involved

    Votes: 12 37.5%
  • Resources (oil minerals) are involved

    Votes: 21 65.6%
  • National pride is involved

    Votes: 13 40.6%
  • Stupidity and lack of forethought is involved

    Votes: 10 31.3%
  • FUTILITY is involved

    Votes: 6 18.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 6 18.8%

  • Total voters
    32
  • Poll closed .
good thread, and the polls are tying up with my thinking...

when you look at religion, territory and resources, it all boils down to one thing.... POWER.
 
The Russian War in Afghanistan?
land grab obviously - backfired bigtime
- or did it ? (cold war implications)
- on Russia? on everybody? (AQ roots)

I'll just throw this quick post in here .... promo for upcoming movie... Charlie Wilson's War
based on the Russian War in Afghanistan plus Cold War (apparently) ...
looks like a good movie in a few weeks ... (Haven't seen it - just guessing that it will be worth watching )

JULIA ROBERTS & TOM HANKS GO TO WAR
Julia Robers opens up to ReelzChannel about her new movie Charlie Wilson's War Tom Hanks


btw, the movie includes the USA helping the mujahadeen to beat the Russians
and (not unlike Rambo III) the muja are portrayed as good guys.
They evolved into Taliban, now teamed / almost synonymous with AQ.

implications and ironies are many and varied
(including Hicks of course).
 
Very confusing this multiple choice poll. Some Dictators, who would like everyone to believe they are all for democracy, would love it. 360% of the people voted and that's why I was voted for as President and got 300% of the vote.

Most wars were fought to plunder the enemy one way or another.
 
Very confusing this multiple choice poll.
agreed - then again - it still picks up the "first impulse(s)" to "most common" contributing causes - those effects scoring highest call loudest.

OR As I said - we may end up more confused than ever. lol.

PS
a) I'm assuming people will only vote for 3 or 4 - doesn't matter if more or less I guess
b) arguably I should have added "all of the above" as nioka suggested
c) probaby if I did the poll again, I'd limit people to max of (say) 3 (or 4) votes - but (as I understand it) no way this "limit per customer" can be set, so no biggie..

d) Perhaps it's more important to post facts, discuss facts, talk about facts / qualify them as necessary - than to quantify them?

PS - "other" is an interesting one - Kimosabi's "End Game" , numbercruncher's Rothschilds etc -
definitely beyond my original choices - individual greed / power !! -

or like the US senators in Fahrenheit 9/11 , almost none of whom had any family in the military etc... should be compulsory - they should all have their eldest son in the bludy infantry. ! - and none of the chickenhawks (political sense) in US govt should have the right to tell the world where to queue up for the next war ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickenhawk_(politics)
 
Summary of the following ? - don't go our of your way to insult another countrie's religions I guess
Also :- "The rebellion or the war for independence had diverse political, economic, military, religious,and social causes"

Detail :- . on the subject of the causes of wars / uprisings - (1857 - just had the 150th anniversary - First "War of Independence" of India- big news in Bolliwood ) .... the alleged "cause" (as against trigger) of the Indian uprising was the grease and pig fat on the Enfield rifles , managing to upset both the Hindis and the Moslems

except that according to Churchill,

a) neither of these types of grease were ever applied in India (although there was an earlier incident where some bullets from England did have beef fat)
b) the Indians (Hindi and Moslem alike) refused to believe the assurances
c) The "trigger" for the mutiny might have been this ( eg when men were jailed for refusing to touch the bullets - only to be broken out of jail with bloody consequences that sipiralled out of control ) Never after, did the two races ever get along as well (or fully trust each other etc ... or rather "left an enduring and bitter mark" - although as he says India played magnificent roll in WWI and WWII
d) but the real reasons were the policies of recent administration policies , annexations, taking over land when Indian Rajas died without heirs - not permitting adopted heirs to do so as had been the custom till then etc ... (major greed creeping into the Brit East India Coy policies, gold and jewels going back to England - farmers forced to change from subsistence to commercial mainly for taxing them etc)

As for the extend of the mutiny .. ( inreality rather than Bolliwood)
e) only a small percentage of the sepoys took part, even when the mutiny was its height - 3/4 of the sepoys remained loyal
f) oly involved less than 1/3rd of the territory was affected
f) it was never a national revolt, - or "partiotic struggle for freedom or independence - much later
When Delhi recaptured - all over
g) Sorted out be "Clemency" Canning
"but terrible attrocities had been committed by both sides" (mutineers blown apart after streadeagled across a cannon
India's first War of Independence (part 2) - "The Beginning"

loss of caste etc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Rebellion_of_1857
 
The US Civil War ? According to the North it was about slavery - according to the south it was about "honour" and "states rights" etc

This latter ( southern) argument sounds like a very confusing argument to me - so many contradicting quotes by Robert E Lee for example.

eg Robert E Lee himself was against slavery ... this quote by him from one of Churchill's history books.


Also quotes by Lee...
"I think it better to do right, even if we suffer in so doing, than to incur the reproach of our consciences and posterity."

"This war is not about slavery." - R.E.Lee ???

Meanwhile Abraham Lincoln had no doubts ...
"Without slavery, the rebellion could never have existed. Without slavery, it could not continue."

Abraham Lincoln, December 1, 1862, Message to Congress, James Ford Rhodes, "History of the Civil War, 1861–1865", 1917, page 198

The other thing that's apparent is that the powerful few in the south dictated to the "silent moral majority" - so what's new.?

And the church were not necessarily included in said moral majority lol - so what's new again.



Presumably the 94 percent approx who didn't own slaves had some other motive than slavery. (?) :2 twocents

PS speaking of confusing quotes .. some more by Lee... (who is revered btw)
"It is well that war is so terrible. We should grow too fond of it"

Maybe this one the most sensible .... !!!
The war... was an unnecessary condition of affairs, and might have been avoided if forebearance and wisdom had been practiced on both sides... Robert E Lee
 
Civil War (1861-1865).
Fourteen years beforehand, 1847, the US War against Mexico (the Alamo , and the subsequent march against Mexico City) - i.e. we are talking only 160 years ago

"officers of the US army included Robert E Lee, Ulysses S Grant etc" marching side by side maybe ?
Mexico was forced to cede not only Texas, but also California, Arizona, New Mexico.

Lt Ulysses Grant confided his impressions to his memoirs...
"I do not think there was ever a more wicked war than that staged by the United States on Mexico"

Land grab obviously.
 
PS - re the post on Robert E Lee's quotes ... this one in particular ..
"Slavery is a political and moral evil in any country, as few in an enlightened age could but acknowledge"
.. try finding that quote on the internet

I mean there are millions of his quotes there, but they're all about duty etc etc
eg "Obedience to lawful authority is the foundation of manly character" -
"You cannot be a true man until you learn to obey"
"Duty is the most sublime word in our language. Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more. You should never wish to do less."

yeah right

I mean how does he juxtapose this one ..
"I think it better to do right, even if we suffer in so doing, than to incur the reproach of our consciences and posterity"

with the fact that he is deep down against slavery !!??

I mean, he doesn't back his conscience, but instead honours some blind obedience to Virginia !!!??
 
Well put...
 
Surprised futility is noted as a characteristic by many - I would argue futility is an outcome not present at the opening stages of war.
"Mission Accomplished" seems like decades ago doesn't it...
 
Surprised futility is noted as a characteristic by many - I would argue futility is an outcome not present at the opening stages of war.
"Mission Accomplished" seems like decades ago doesn't it...
mof,
maybe not a cause so much as a characteristic ?

and as you say - "mission accomplished" was not "futulity" so much as........ "premature senility" maybe ?
 
The spin doctor's working overtime,
on a "Mission Accomplished" retraction
unless the mission was a (nigh on) warcrime,
and eternal military action;
it's easier it seems to get into a brawl,
than it is to get out of Iraq
and its bludy hard to spin a bowled ball,
- so much that the damned thing spins back!

http://www.geocities.com/jacksonthor/lieswmd.html
Bush Administration Officials’ Lies about Iraq’s Supposed Weapons of Mass Destruction in Their Own Words


The backpedaling begins:


And finally, some truth:

 
Speaking of the American Civil War, this song is from a Broadway musical (Civil War) apparently - (top song, brilliantly sung)

Linda Eder ... written by her husband etc. I take it she's a young nurse at a field "hospital" (sic) after Gettysburg - where there were about 23,000 casualties on both sides, Union and Confederate, including about 3100 killed each side. (27% of Union troops, 33% of Confederate) etc.

"The true cost of honour is suddenly too clear
It measures too full and dear ... "

"He always looks the same
Dressed in blue or gray
All the life he'll miss " .... etc

Linda Eder - I Never Knew His Name
This is Linda Eder singing the hauntingly beautiful "I Never Knew His Name" from the musical by her husband, Frank Wildhorn, called "The Civil War".

 
PS Interesting comment that the estimation of casualties - includes deserters .... Makes sense I guess .. possibly means estimates slightly high.

Union troops were not totally keen - you'd have to assume - based on the Draft Riots - although apparently not many were finally drafted ( according to wiki)
- but there were unhappy scenes in New York etc.

Doesn't sound like "$300 man" was a particularly flattering expression.

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/gettysburg/getty4.aspx
** Casualties generally included anyone who deserted, was captured, missing, wounded, or killed. In essence, if a soldier was not present during muster, he could likely be counted as a casualty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Draft_Riots

 
Another American War this one ... the Spanish - American War - might have started with a pretense of high moral ground - ended yet again in a landgrab

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish-American_War

They claimed that they were driving the Spanish out of Cuba for the sake of the Cubans. - and sure there was some unrest in Cuba. but........

By some interesting little twist of fate, - and change of their original goal - they also decided to hold the defeated Spain down (before the days of Guantanamo and waterboarding by the way) until she also gave them Puerto Rico, the Philippines ( what the !? - oceans away from Cuba?), Guam , Caroline Islands, (in Melanesia - including I'm fairly sure Bikini Atoll where they proceeded after WW!! to let off 20 odd nuclear bombs - certainly they had Bikini in 1946 after WWII) .

you wonder if they'd have been happier remaining under the Spanish

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish-American_War

http://www.bikiniatoll.com/home.html
March 7, 1946 - March 7, 2006
60 Years of Exodus from Bikini Atoll
 

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