wayneL
VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!
- Joined
- 9 July 2004
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Magdoran said:Hello Margaret,
Thanks for the welcome. It is nice to find someone who is on your wavelength isn’t it?
Hmmm, it is a shame that the options are moving to $1 Increments for the higher priced stocks, most annoying really, but the percentages are still better than $5, wouldn’t you agree?
I certainly agree about the non directional and volatility plays being less effective over the past couple of years in the Australian market compared to straight positions on average. You still could have entered a lot of bull puts though, and done very well.
Butterflies work well in sideways market (hence more effective in the US), so I can understand you not using them in such a strongly trending/volatile market in Australia from 2003 onwards.
With the higher volatility now though, maybe it’s time for a few credit positions – I’ve been thinking about ratio spreads recently, but never tried them in practice.
As for theta, agree, not an issue for short term long options. But crucial for longer term plays, both credit and debit. Have a look at my comments to Wayne I will post below for some of my musings, and see what you think.
Once again thanks for the warm welcome.
Regards
Magdoran
wayneL said:Butterflies:
...rock on indecies (not XJO: ). Well I prefer condors (just a stretched out butterfly) This has been my bread and butter trade for a while now.
hissho said:HI Wayne
Why's that? why not XJO?
thanks
hissho
Magdoran said:But when you have such a strongly trending market in Australia, why wouldn’t you trade directionally? (How often do sideways strategies make over 1000% ROI in under a month???).
Magdoran said:Regarding my experience with Bull Call spreads - the IV skews were one key element, and if you try these, it is a problem if the bought call is closer to the money and the IV is higher, but that’s just one component… the other is winding out a spread when you’re not wanting to stay up all night. Perhaps I was unlucky, but why then did my OTM calls and bull puts make good returns when the bull calls didn’t?
Magdoran said:… and yes, we options buffs can really ramble on, can't we?
Magdoran said:Re the Bull call spreads, just go back and see if you could have done better with OTM calls and bear puts, and compare the risk and reward. The conclusion I came to is to ditch the bull calls – but that’s just me.
Magdoran said:I hope we don’t scare everyone away, so please, if any newer players have any questions, please ask away. And please don’t feel intimidated, this is a really complex area, and if you don’t ask the silly questions, I can assure you, it’s unlikely you will get to ask the hard ones…
wayneL said:At some stage I must aquire the aforementioned tomes. Better read what I've been suggesting people read huh?
I've got a couple of Cottles books, which have served as my options bibles.
I've also got a really interesting book - "Trading Options To Win" by Stuart Johnston. This guy thinks out of the square, and is at times, absolutely hilarious... he trades commodity options, and is into statistics, seasonals etc., not one price chart in the whole book. But of great interest even to a techie.
Cheers
This new book is an expanded revision of "Options: Perception and Deception" and "Coulda Woulda Shoulda". OD was published by McGraw Hill in Hardback and I obtained the rights back to self publish the derivative CWS to give away at my brokerage firm from 2001 to 2003. Because they are out of print, O D sells from between $299 and $399 while CWS fetches between $55 and $125 where rare books are sold. "Options Trading: The Hidden Reality" not only printed in color has 100 more pages and features more dissection illustrations on popular wingspread (stretched-out condors, slingshots and skip-strike-flies) and calendarized spread (double diagonals, straddle strangle swaps and double calendars) configurations. I think what made O D in such demand were the 3D graphics and the Skew Library. They are both brought back in color along with the appendix proving Chapter 2's Options Metamorphosis.
RichKid said:Hi Wayne,
What are those Cottle books? This is the link to the three books I found on Amazon by Cottle, I assume these are the ones ($300 for one of em- sheez!! (latest one at the top). http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/104-1098788-9571936?search-alias=aps&keywords=cottle options
I note that Coulda Woulda Shoulda was on your site- identical to the original? I also saw a new title by him which had come out earlier this year- Options Trading: The Hidden Reality. The latest one appears to be a collection of the previous material (with beautiful 'living' colour) and additions:
Magdoran said:Hello Wayne,
Re Bull Call spreads:
Going back through my notes on Bull Call spreads back in 2003-4, these were mid term trades of about a month projected duration. The problems I identified was using strikes too close together, problems with winding out positions using contingent orders when the IV skewed against my positions, sudden adverse movements, and contingent stop loss orders not getting filled (since the gap against my position was so strong).
(The width of the strikes is important, and I’d agree you need to ensure the width is not too narrow or too wide…).
I was buying bull call spreads with around 65-90 days time value, with a 30 day trading horizon, and incorporated time stops at 30 days till expiry. IV was mixed: some high, some mid range… but none were really low (compared to Australia at the time anyway).
Oddly, all my Australian plays were successful at the time using bull call spreads, but on revision, straight calls/puts and bull puts/bear calls would have yielded better returns, and similar risk. Now this is interesting because I think I never had a successful bull call spread work in the US, but did OK in Australia, what does that tell you? Also interestingly, I had several successful OTM straight calls combined with bull puts in the US at the same time too…
Another element was my T/A was different at the time, and not as time/price accurate as now, and on a couple of occasions bought/sold false breaks – but this was then a T/A problem, not an options performance issue.
So there you have it Wayne…
So, what is your approach/experience? Time frame, strike width, market area, do you stay up to enter/exit? Do you think the risk/reward characteristics of bull call spreads/bear put spreads are better than other alternative options strategies? In essence what are the conditions you look for to select the appropriate strategy?
Regards
Magdoran
P.S. Love the diagrams!
Magdoran said:So, what is your approach/experience? Time frame, strike width, market area, do you stay up to enter/exit? Do you think the risk/reward characteristics of bull call spreads/bear put spreads are better than other alternative options strategies? In essence what are the conditions you look for to select the appropriate strategy?
Regards
Magdoran
P.S. Love the diagrams!
Magdoran said:I’ve been meaning to comment on your chat with Cottle. That was amazing actually getting to talk with Cottle online, what a scoop!
wayneL said:Yep they're the ones Rich,
I've got "perception and deception" (didn't think it was still available) and of course, "coulda woulda shoulda".
Pass on perception and deception. It's more for the professional MM, it'll definately cause brain fission LOL.
CWS is the best for us mug punters. But it's still fairly advanced and pretty much jumps straight into the deep end. Can cause spontaneous combustion of any flammable material within 1.5 mters of your brain.
Haven't got the new one yet. Letting my brain degrade a few half lives first
RichKid said:Thanks Wayne, glad CWS is a bit hard too in your view as I couldn't really understand it at first blush. What little is left of my mind must be protected from people like Cottle so thanks for the warning, maybe the cover should have one of those radiation warning signs, red and yellow with a big exclamation mark, skull and crossbones etc.....
RichKid said:Is 'Options as a Strategic Investment' similar to Cottle in terms of depth or does it have additional material which will help in other fields of trading? Although I rarely trade options I find the concepts and observations re price have helped my in my general trading, especially the volatility studies.
lol, Yes, very true! I still can't believe how easy it is to open an options trading account, I'd encourage people to sue if they make losses, you should see how simple the comsec forms and questionnaires are.wayneL said:LOL Perhaps we should lobby parliament for this. Everything else has to have a doggone warning these days.
As I say I have never read it. At ~1,000 pages it must be pretty comprehensive, but allegedly is a comparitively, much easier read.
Cheers
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