Magdoran said:Hello Wayne,
I’m pleased to see the great job you are doing with options. You’ve come a long way indeed from when we chatted on the SG site a few years ago about options, well done!
So, are you trading options in the US mainly, or Australia, or both? I also note you made some comments on silver on another thread, are you trading options on futures too?
Magdoran said:I’m curious about what kind of strategies you’re into these days too... like are you doing any ratio positions, perhaps with mixed strikes and mixed expiry dates?
Magdoran said:Pretty amazing what you can do, isn’t it?
Magdoran said:Anyway, I hope you don’t mind me posting a few observations and slightly alternative viewpoints on your thread for general interest.
Magdoran said:US Market Vs Australian Market
What a lot of new options traders fail to grasp at first is the difference in gradation of the strikes. The US stock option gradation of strikes is either at $2.50 or $5.00 increments, while in Australia it is at $0.25 or $0.50. This is why each strike has potentially more open interest there because the range of choices is very limited.
Magdoran said:Another factor is that the option value increments for US stock options is set at 0.05 (5 cents) as opposed to (half cent) 0.005 gradations for Australia (that’s 10 times as fine – this is significant to many positions, especially if you want to exit a loser).
Magdoran said:Hello Wayne,
Thanks for the welcome, and gratifying to see how much you’ve expanded your capabilities. Futures are an interesting arena, one I more watch than trade currently. I also moved more to the Australian market since I found my performance was better than in the US (I like my sleep – and try not to overtrade). How are you finding the US market at the moment?
I’ve been doing a lot of work recently on hedging strategies combining options and futures (options on futures perhaps more precisely), but it’s pretty involved when you’re trying to work out a range of instruments to work in concert – still getting my head around how to automate this more. So I share your enthusiasm for the breadth of opportunities, the things you can do are almost endless, aren’t’ they?
Nice to hear you are progressing well. Over some time now, I’ve found that sometimes it’s better to keep things simple and not get bogged down in complexity… simple bullish strategies like bull puts when volatility is high combined with longer dated OTM calls and then selling current month calls a strike or two towards the money works well in a bullish market. The danger being that the sold call may end up in the money at expiry, so have to manage these carefully.
The key is, “does it work in reality?”, isn’t it? As T.S. Elliott said “between the theory and the practice falls the shadow”.
Thanks for the salutation too, much appreciated.
Regards
Magdoran
Magdoran said:Where the gradations in strikes have an impact is when you compare Australian stocks that are around or above $20 (e.g. COH, MBL, CBA, WPL, RIO) compared to similarly priced US stocks, the potential reward for a similar percentage move in each underlying is different given you can precisely choose a mildly OTM option which moves into the money before your time exit, gaining significantly in raw percentage returns (say 500% as opposed to say %150). Makes a big difference to your bottom line when the market is trending nicely.
The difference also in value gradations can shave value off your entries and exits since you can’t move more finely, and I would argue that this adds up (in the market makers favour). It would be great if the US exchanges embraced a 1 cent standard!
Magdoran said:....and of course the delta on an Australian option that moves into the money (ITM) appreciates significantly as the underlying moves further into the money, hence the major difference in both the potential for significant rewards as well as the probability of success, wouldn’t you agree?
Yes aways fun getting into the nitty gritty of optionsGreat chatting Wayne!
Magdoran said:P.S. You’ll be in trouble if my wife sees your comment on the “Evil Empire” – she’s from the US! She’ll probably want to join me on my trip to Perth soon, to wrap you over the head with a newspaper (or one of my options books), so watch out! Hehehe. Mag
Magdoran said:Hello Wayne,
So, which part of the states are you from? I suppose you’ve been in Australia for a while then?
Magdoran said:Ok, the point I was making about US Vs Australia is this:
Say we have two stocks trading at $40 (hypothetically let’s say DOX and CBA were trading at $40).
We project that each stock will hit $44.50 by 30 days to expiry.
DOX has a $40 and $45 call available ($5 increments).
CBA has literally 14 strikes available between these increments.
I used July calls for both, and added days for the US options to match the theta decay (I set the time to expiry and the entry and exit price to the same numbers for each stock).
I trailed a few different variables, and came up with a range of results where the CBA trade was making around 1000% ROI for several OTM strikes mid way between 40 and 45, while the DOX returns were more like 400% ROI for the two strikes available.
This is consistent with my experience trading both markets. Trading OTM positions is more aggressive, but the rewards are far higher when the trade is correct. Also, the delta effect is less if you are wrong for OTM positions.
I deliberately wanted to make the US look bad however, by selecting a price range which would show up the divergence clearly, so the difference is not always as great, it really depends on the entry and end price, and the time frame.
If the US stock entry and exit line up favourably with the strike prices, the difference reduces. But this range is affected by the width between the strikes, and severely limits the range of strategy choices in comparison, and waiting for the right movement in line with the limitations of the US strikes is restrictive in comparison. Just think it through– 14 strikes available compared with 2. Everyone reading this, please do the math yourself and have a play – see what you find.
Another factor to consider which options model you are using. I prefer American exercise/ Binomial over European exercise Black and Scholes, I think the former gives a more accurate forecast on average.
Admittedly volatility is another key aspect to this equation, and on average the US has had much higher stock implied volatility than in Australia, hence credit positions are generally effective in the US, hence straight calls and puts work better on average in Australia than the Us since the implied volatility has been lower (although of course this can change).
Anyway, this is food for thought, isn’t it?
Happy modelling!
Magdoran
OTM = Out of the Money
ATM = At the Money
ITM = In the Money
ROI = Return on Investment
Magdoran said:Hope your lactic acid build up abated!
Magdoran said:Contest Risk:
Can’t say I really understand this. I didn’t think the transaction costs were that great in the Australian market when the contract size is 10 times that in the states (1000 vs 100). This also has a marked advantage for the Australian market.
Magdoran said:What tickles my fancy???
Many things Wayne. I’m not a “satisfiser” by nature, but a “maximiser”. The ultimate objective is quite complex actually (funny, no one has asked me that for a long time), but in trading involves longer term targets, job satisfaction (I actually get a kick out of what I do), I like being able to recognise my errors and correct them (ala Soros), but it’s certainly nice to be right sometimes (which is probably universally true for everyone).
How about you?
Gamma:
Do you really use this a lot independently from all the other variables? I don’t, it just factors in with my model, so I know what things are likely to look like within a range, based on price action and time (includes forecasting IV too by the way). Gamma just helps to calculate how quickly the delta will change if your position moves in or out of the money, doesn’t it?
Magdoran said:When I trade this kind of high risk trade, I accept I may make significant losses (up to 100%). But if I can make higher returns from a sufficient number of successful trades, enough to counteract the costs and losses, I’m ahead. But this is still a work in progress, and far from a proven methodology – it will probably take me another 2-3 years to fully develop it. It is not for newbies, that’s for sure.
Regards
Magdoran
Magdoran said:We’re looking to go over for thanksgiving later this year… looking forward to that.
Magdoran said:As for conversion, that was never my intention. I kind of think about individual preferences for markets and instruments along the lines of a smorgasbord – I like chicken and you like beef, and the next person is vegetarian… (Or I LOVE Chocolate, and someone else likes lemon cheesecake – better stop this, I’m getting hungry!).
My purpose was to offer a different perspective for other readers to consider giving them more choices, and an insight into the experiences from those that have done it. It is also a good vehicle for discussing the way that the different “Greeks” effect risk and reward, and illustrates just how important it is to really do the ground work about how options behave, and to develop the capacity to project/forecast potential results using this kind of instrument.
wayneL said:.....but I don't think the goal was proselytization anyway. But certainly an appreciation of trading philosophy has been achieved.
Magdoran said:Gamma:
Delta neutral concepts at the advanced end get very hairy (which is why I set up a model and let the computer do all the hard sums). The problem I have is that implied volatility really messes things up, along with theta decay if short an option under 30 days (which is often a primary focus of a market neutral credit spread). Sure, with things like butterflies and condors, and perhaps in ratio spreads (especially in different time frames) this is a consideration, but I still hold IV is key here, and theta decay.
Magdoran said:I never did really get into gamma type trades, (just didn’t see this style as attractive as other approaches in this kind of market), but I’d be interested if there is a gamma player out there who’d like to share their knowledge (this is not a strong suit of mine, trading this way). Could be interesting… (We could also talk IV though; I think this is really relevant in all trades).
Magdoran said:I found McMilan’s book “Options as a Strategic Investment” to be invaluable for this kind of options theory... ever get to read it?
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