Options courses
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wayneL
VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!
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I'll back my capacity against anyone like you any day.
Bring it on.
So far from you, only claims, let's see some substance.
Bring it on.
So far from you, only claims, let's see some substance.
Prime, how long have you been selling CCs and naked puts (both are the same thing anyway)?
I'm just wonderin' how you protect yourself from the nasty possibility of a stock that drops through the floor and wipes out all your small profits.
Perhaps you keep your eye on the chart daily and watch out for a moving average to turn negative or something similar?
Do you also do collars? If so, how and when do you do them as opposed to CCs or NPs?
Please tell, thanks.
Options Newbie
I'm just wonderin' how you protect yourself from the nasty possibility of a stock that drops through the floor and wipes out all your small profits.
Perhaps you keep your eye on the chart daily and watch out for a moving average to turn negative or something similar?
Do you also do collars? If so, how and when do you do them as opposed to CCs or NPs?
Please tell, thanks.
Options Newbie
Hi Novice,
I have tried a few option courses also and they have been basically useless. Options University Master Series and Spotlight Series are both excellent. I do not get any payment for saying this. So far Options University is the only course material I have found that delivers excellent quality and usefull training.
I have tried a few option courses also and they have been basically useless. Options University Master Series and Spotlight Series are both excellent. I do not get any payment for saying this. So far Options University is the only course material I have found that delivers excellent quality and usefull training.
wayneL said:
Clearly you took my post as negative ... hmmm ... why did you think it was directed at you?
Since I've joined this forum I've received several esoteric little barbs from so-called experienced traders almost all of whom use overused cliches.
You can be a keyboard warrior all you like ... I wont be drawn. I'm here to learn, if you're here to teach, then you should check your ego at the office door before you power up your computer.
Ahhh ... It's a pi**ing competiton you're after ... pass.
I wont post details of my accounts; but I will post pics of Italy, Greece, Turkey, Croatia and the Adriatic Coast when I get back.
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Prime
It's Sunday, the markets are closed, therefore it must be time for some argybargy.
From your inital post, you in point of fact insinuate that you make profits substantial enough to pay for holidays to Europe. You may in point of fact be paying for the trip by working overtime, or, as you allude, via trading profits.
The fact of the matter is that unless a trading methodology is traded live, or thereabouts, no-one is the wiser. This forum is rife with hindsight trades etc.
Anyone can be profitable in hindsight. It means absolutely nothing.
Therefore, by elimination we can start to make an informed decision;
Viz. that you imply trading profits from trading substantial enough to pay for a trip to Europe...........and no history of live trades to substantiate that implication.
Add to that the rampant use of hindsight trading that is prevalent on many internet forums, increasingly so in Bull markets, that draws the johnny-come-lately experts, and any scepticism to your allusions can be understood in this context.
jog on
d998
It's Sunday, the markets are closed, therefore it must be time for some argybargy.
From your inital post, you in point of fact insinuate that you make profits substantial enough to pay for holidays to Europe. You may in point of fact be paying for the trip by working overtime, or, as you allude, via trading profits.
The fact of the matter is that unless a trading methodology is traded live, or thereabouts, no-one is the wiser. This forum is rife with hindsight trades etc.
Anyone can be profitable in hindsight. It means absolutely nothing.
Therefore, by elimination we can start to make an informed decision;
Viz. that you imply trading profits from trading substantial enough to pay for a trip to Europe...........and no history of live trades to substantiate that implication.
Add to that the rampant use of hindsight trading that is prevalent on many internet forums, increasingly so in Bull markets, that draws the johnny-come-lately experts, and any scepticism to your allusions can be understood in this context.
jog on
d998
ducati916 said:
Ok, I stand corrected. I'll state it a little more clearly.
I do write covered calls (and naked puts) ... I DO make very good money from both ... and I am going on a 3 week trip to Europe next year which is in whole being paid for by my trading profits.
So ... every time I or anyone else make a comment on these forums we are expected to provide a complete trading history ... you've got to be joking.
... and why the double standards ... I dont see anyone else doing that ... and further more, this thread was about Trading Courses ... I was trying to inject a little humour ...
wanyeL made a comment that abrogated the possibility of making money from CCs from these courses. Lets see the trading historys that show good profits cant be made and perhaps we can analyse them to find out why the trades failed and then how to improve the system?
For the record, I have calculated my expectacy on CCs and NPs and it sits at +4.872 cents per US dollar traded ... when you factor in monthly turnover, brokers margin lending, thats a return on my capital of about 9% per month. I currently have about $114,000 over in the US. You do the maths and then divide the figure by 0.77 for the exchange rate and you'll get an idea of my monthly income from CCs and NPs.
Yep ... CCs and NPs are gonna give me a nice little holiday in Europe ... and whilst I'm there I expect to visit a few stock exchanges and claim part of the trip on tax!
... and to tar everyone with the same brush without knowing them is completely less than insightful and certainly not at all helpful to those interested in expanding their knowledge.
... and I never claimed to be an expert ... john come lately or any other kind.
I've said it before in these forums ... I'm here to learn. What I do learn, I study, test and put into practice and make it work. I learn from other peoples mistakes and my mistakes and profit from them.
If people continue to drive new members away by treating them with such disdain and disrespect then this forum site is not going to last
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Prime
Ok, there now is no confusion at all.
While I do not believe that anyone is claiming money cannot be made from the above strategies, they are warning that the above strategies, particularly writing naked Puts, carries risk that is incommensurate with the reward earned...............and that further, these profits are easiest to come by in a bull market. The information regarding your trading/investing being in the US was not immediately apparent, and thus an assumption of the ASX [which is currently a bull market] was probably made.
No-one expects a past trading history, unless you are solicitating funds to invest on behalf of third parties. However, without some form of track record, why should anyone pay you any notice?
You claim that you make/made profits trading the aforementioned strategies.
On what evidence?
If on the other hand you had maintained some form of public tradeing journal, called in real time, we would not be having this conversation, as you would simply refer me to your thread, blog, website, and the evidence would speak for itself.
As regards double standards..........no double standards at all.
There are a number of people on this forum, and numerous others that do provide real time trading/investment calls.
Well currently, we have such a thread, not exactly called live, but, dealing with exactly this topic, viz. Covered Call. From time to time options trades [live] do crop up, and they are assidiuously followed.
But there is no record.
Therefore, a total waste of time.
Unfortunately, I disagree.
To my mind it behooves the reader to be a hardened sceptic in the realm of Financial markets. Unless there is evidence that categorically provides the verity of the assertions and or premise, nothing should be taken at face value. This is simply a long winded method of advocating the time worn phrase of; do your own research.
As an example, selling a naked Put, gives you a fixed reward, and a risk capped at 100% of the common, magnified by your leverage, this is the antithesis of sound money management. Therefore on what justification would you recommend this strategy?
Well, mabe you were being taught a lesson?
If that is the case, you received exactly that which you sought.
The forum will continue, or it will not.
Forums [internet] tend to have some argybargy, par for the course, try not to be quite so sensitive and repudiate the attack with logical, reasoned, insightful riposte, and your fun shall know no bounds!
jog on
d998
Ok, there now is no confusion at all.
While I do not believe that anyone is claiming money cannot be made from the above strategies, they are warning that the above strategies, particularly writing naked Puts, carries risk that is incommensurate with the reward earned...............and that further, these profits are easiest to come by in a bull market. The information regarding your trading/investing being in the US was not immediately apparent, and thus an assumption of the ASX [which is currently a bull market] was probably made.
No-one expects a past trading history, unless you are solicitating funds to invest on behalf of third parties. However, without some form of track record, why should anyone pay you any notice?
You claim that you make/made profits trading the aforementioned strategies.
On what evidence?
If on the other hand you had maintained some form of public tradeing journal, called in real time, we would not be having this conversation, as you would simply refer me to your thread, blog, website, and the evidence would speak for itself.
As regards double standards..........no double standards at all.
There are a number of people on this forum, and numerous others that do provide real time trading/investment calls.
Well currently, we have such a thread, not exactly called live, but, dealing with exactly this topic, viz. Covered Call. From time to time options trades [live] do crop up, and they are assidiuously followed.
But there is no record.
Therefore, a total waste of time.
Unfortunately, I disagree.
To my mind it behooves the reader to be a hardened sceptic in the realm of Financial markets. Unless there is evidence that categorically provides the verity of the assertions and or premise, nothing should be taken at face value. This is simply a long winded method of advocating the time worn phrase of; do your own research.
As an example, selling a naked Put, gives you a fixed reward, and a risk capped at 100% of the common, magnified by your leverage, this is the antithesis of sound money management. Therefore on what justification would you recommend this strategy?
Well, mabe you were being taught a lesson?
If that is the case, you received exactly that which you sought.
The forum will continue, or it will not.
Forums [internet] tend to have some argybargy, par for the course, try not to be quite so sensitive and repudiate the attack with logical, reasoned, insightful riposte, and your fun shall know no bounds!
jog on
d998
Prime said:If people continue to drive new members away by treating them with such disdain and disrespect then this forum site is not going to last
Relax, you'll do yourself an injury.
An excellent forum this, even if much of it is over my head. I doubt it's going to fold anytime soon.
And anyway respect is a two-way street.
ice
ice said:Relax, you'll do yourself an injury.
An excellent forum this, even if much of it is over my head. I doubt it's going to fold anytime soon.
And anyway respect is a two-way street.
ice
You are absolutely correct.
A comment made in jest in an effort to join in and then misinterpreted by others is not my problem.
You are also correct about respect ... I find it very hard to respect others when I'm under unprovoked attack.
I'm going to mellow out ... a nice chardonay on the balcony is in order.
ducati916 said:
You're going to have to explain these incommensurate risks to me ... either I've been very very lucky trade after trade after trade or ... they are no where near as risky as you claim. Please explain your stand on this issue.
Actually lets discuss this in a separate thread ... I am seriously interested in getting other peoples perspectives
BTW, the AUS market suffered a correction from about 11th May this year and so did the USA ... hardly bullish and I still made profits ... but without any evidence you're just going to have to take my word for it or not ... either way I'm still going to Europe
Another assumption ... I'm starting to see why no one will except my word for things that I say ... they're too busy jumping to conclusions.
Only Tech/a has ever asked me questions ... which I have gladly answered ... gotta say, didn't get much in the way of answers though.
"On what evidence?" ... "No-one expects a past trading history" ... Correct me if I'm wrong but you just did.
Are there really people out there that air their dirty laundry ... honestly? I don't run a website or blog ... you cant be serious ... But I'll take this suggestion under advisement ... It would be so easy to fiddle these authentic records that their credibility should never be believed. (I used to run a web server ... ANYTHING can be edited!)
Good. Where do I find them? I't will be fun to monitor them. Mind you, I never purported to provide tips ... all I did was say that I made some good profits. I don't have to justify them to anyone. c u in Rome!
(that was humour in cased it was missed)I'll check that thread out ... thanks for the pointer.
You make it sound like it really matters that someone comes along and tells the truth or not.
In the context of the statement I made;
If I'm lying ... so what ... I'm only kidding myself.
If I'm telling the truth ... so what ... I'm off to Europe.
Either way ... the reader has to make up their own mind ... I said nothing that would cause a reader to lose money if they acted ... even if they could act. On the flip side, I've seen heaps of posts about ASX direct stocks where opinions were stated without question. If this isn't a double standard I'm not sure what is.
Lets get back to the original post that caused this angst ...
I said:
"Funny you should say that ....
I do write covered calls (and naked puts) ... I DO make very good money from both ... and I am going on a 3 week trip to Europe next year! "
Note the word funny in my post ...
... did I ever say anything that demanded such intense scrutiny? Did I say anything that demanded that the verasity of my statements be checked and scrutinised to the nth degree. No.
I would justify this strategy when all of the indicators (technical and fundamental) in my system say "Do it!" ... you said it yourself ... "Do your own research".
Lessons should be taught by those qualified to teach them. I have seen little evidence to date to verify the qualifications of those that seek to "teach".
That is, without doubt the best (and only descent) advice I've had in these forums since I joined.
I trust this response was logical,reasoned and insightful.
wayneL
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denl said:
Hi denl,
I've said so on another forum, but once again I will agree with you here. Their's is the only worthwhile course I've seen anywhere. (that's available to retail traders).
Cheers
wayneL
VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!
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Prime said:
I need not say anything that Ducati has already said.
But as a point of order: Your initial post in this thread was quoting me. Your comments seemed to be more of an attempt to satirize, than amuse. Therefore if you believe you have been attacked, it was not unprovoked, but rather as the result of said provocation.
All subsequent protestations of injustice from you seem to me to be a case of "He(she?) doth protest too much!"
As far as respect: Until there is some substance from you with regards to your assertions of profitability/expectancy etc, you will receive respect only from the most gullible.
However, everyone is deserving of a chance to prove oneself and as such, I am looking forward to some worthy input.
Cheers
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Prime
As later stated;
But a naked Put is selling [short] the Put.
As a derivatives pricing is derived from the underlying [common stock for eg.]
If the common stock is delisted [bankruptcy] the common price falls to $0.0
This = 100% loss in the common.
The derivative, will thus lose 100% * leverage, thus, your potential risk is large .........100%*20 = 2000%
Your reward, the initial premium, is fixed.
Therefore, the risk/reward ratio is incommensurate to sound money management.
This following statement is precisely why you are taking some criticism.
The technical or fundamental *indicators* that you refer to, are in essence your entry criteria They explain nothing about risk. That risk is being assumed, on the trigger of an oscillator, trendline, etc........and or a fundamental factor that correlates directly to the underlying. It does not however correlate in a linear equation to the derivative. The relationship is calculated via a non-linear equation, thus, immediately, the risk/reward ratio becomes unbalanced.
This needs to be addressed, and there are many ways to do so, which is the subject of many discussions on this forum and others.
A naked Put as a strategy implies that you do not fully comprehend the position, and hence the comments from other posters.
The naked Put violates this basic principal, due to the unbalanced nature of the R/R ratio, and is thus considered a foolhardy strategy.
If you claim results;
Then you need the evidence, from a public resource that verifies your claim.
Now I'm not interested in how much money you place in a trade, I'm not interested in how much money you have.............what I am interested in is the % return on a trade, opened and closed in real time, in public, over a period of years preferrably, but that obviously takes time.
Therefore, for discussion and debate purposes, no trading history is required, opinions are free, and yours is as valid as mine etc.
However, when you seek to justify an assertion via the success of your trading...........
Currently, you have no record.
Therefore, don't waste my time with nonsense.
You were lambasted for providing erroneous information without context.
Viz. Profitability without accounting for the high risk nature of those profits, seemingly justified by a trip to Europe. [all carrot, no stick]
http://lightning.he.net/cgi-bin/suid/~reefcap/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000417
http://lightning.he.net/cgi-bin/suid/~reefcap/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=74;t=000004
http://lightning.he.net/cgi-bin/suid/~reefcap/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=74;t=000003
http://lightning.he.net/cgi-bin/suid/~reefcap/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000433
Qualifications will mean different things to different people.
The bottom line, however can always be measured in %return or dollars.
Hence the requirement for a verifiable trading strategy.
I can claim anything I choose.
But can I show you with real time trade calls?
If I can, then, even if I'm a bouncer, I'm qualified.
No.
But I appreciate the fact that you are making an effort, therefore I am quite willing to expand on some of your rather hairsplitting observations.
jog on
d998
As later stated;
But a naked Put is selling [short] the Put.
As a derivatives pricing is derived from the underlying [common stock for eg.]
If the common stock is delisted [bankruptcy] the common price falls to $0.0
This = 100% loss in the common.
The derivative, will thus lose 100% * leverage, thus, your potential risk is large .........100%*20 = 2000%
Your reward, the initial premium, is fixed.
Therefore, the risk/reward ratio is incommensurate to sound money management.
This following statement is precisely why you are taking some criticism.
The technical or fundamental *indicators* that you refer to, are in essence your entry criteria They explain nothing about risk. That risk is being assumed, on the trigger of an oscillator, trendline, etc........and or a fundamental factor that correlates directly to the underlying. It does not however correlate in a linear equation to the derivative. The relationship is calculated via a non-linear equation, thus, immediately, the risk/reward ratio becomes unbalanced.
This needs to be addressed, and there are many ways to do so, which is the subject of many discussions on this forum and others.
A naked Put as a strategy implies that you do not fully comprehend the position, and hence the comments from other posters.
The naked Put violates this basic principal, due to the unbalanced nature of the R/R ratio, and is thus considered a foolhardy strategy.
If you claim results;
Then you need the evidence, from a public resource that verifies your claim.
Now I'm not interested in how much money you place in a trade, I'm not interested in how much money you have.............what I am interested in is the % return on a trade, opened and closed in real time, in public, over a period of years preferrably, but that obviously takes time.
Therefore, for discussion and debate purposes, no trading history is required, opinions are free, and yours is as valid as mine etc.
However, when you seek to justify an assertion via the success of your trading...........
Currently, you have no record.
Therefore, don't waste my time with nonsense.
You were lambasted for providing erroneous information without context.
Viz. Profitability without accounting for the high risk nature of those profits, seemingly justified by a trip to Europe. [all carrot, no stick]
http://lightning.he.net/cgi-bin/suid/~reefcap/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000417
http://lightning.he.net/cgi-bin/suid/~reefcap/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=74;t=000004
http://lightning.he.net/cgi-bin/suid/~reefcap/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=74;t=000003
http://lightning.he.net/cgi-bin/suid/~reefcap/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000433
Qualifications will mean different things to different people.
The bottom line, however can always be measured in %return or dollars.
Hence the requirement for a verifiable trading strategy.
I can claim anything I choose.
But can I show you with real time trade calls?
If I can, then, even if I'm a bouncer, I'm qualified.
No.
But I appreciate the fact that you are making an effort, therefore I am quite willing to expand on some of your rather hairsplitting observations.
jog on
d998
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And one more example;
http://lightning.he.net/cgi-bin/suid/~reefcap/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=79;t=000004;p=4#000058
jog on
d998
http://lightning.he.net/cgi-bin/suid/~reefcap/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=79;t=000004;p=4#000058
jog on
d998
prime said:
Hi Prime,
Just a word of advise. If you are here to learn, you should not antagonise one of the very few people on this forum who are genuinely able to broaden your knowledge. WayneL has selflessly spent a great deal of his time discussing the various aspects of options trading in an attempt to raise awareness as well as to educate. I for one have found his contribution invaluable.
The issue of using NP is a personal one, and as duc has pointed out, it has limited reward and potentially unlimited risk, and is therefore not something you would recommend to everybody. Having said that, I do use NP quite a lot myself, but I understand the implications involved and so I take my chances accordingly.
However, I have also witnessed WayneL's now famous FRX Diagonal spread trade. Notwithstanding the fact that he made a vega risk miscalculation, it was the principal of what he was able to achieve with the usage of volatility skew that really caught my eye. When opportunities such as these arise, he was able to literally "lift" the entire risk curve, so that only at very small range of strikes were the transaction unprofitable. In other words, there were large range of strikes that profitable, a key ingredient in the risk/reward analysis.
To my mind of thinking, this type of trading is far superior to the NP and I would suggest that you evaluate some of WayneL's previous post to see what you can glean from it, rather than engage in some meaningless debate on chest beating.
Just my
bingk6 said:
Your assessment of wayneL seems to be on the money. Over the week-end I spent a considerable amount of time reading other threads in the forum and he clearly demonstrated sound and diverse knowledge of the subject.
Ditto. Risk management and money management and extensive research reduce these risk considerably.
However, I have also witnessed WayneL's now famous FRX Diagonal spread trade. Notwithstanding the fact that he made a vega risk miscalculation, it was the principal of what he was able to achieve with the usage of volatility skew that really caught my eye. When opportunities such as these arise, he was able to literally "lift" the entire risk curve, so that only at very small range of strikes were the transaction unprofitable. In other words, there were large range of strikes that profitable, a key ingredient in the risk/reward analysis.
To my mind of thinking, this type of trading is far superior to the NP and I would suggest that you evaluate some of WayneL's previous post to see what you can glean from it, rather than engage in some meaningless debate on chest beating.
Just my
I'll have to search for it ... it sounds intriguing.
thanks for your 2c
Prime said:
Here is the link for it. Lots of valuable info in it. Well worth a read.
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3884
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