This is a mobile optimized page that loads fast, if you want to load the real page, click this text.

NBN Rollout Scrapped

Jump to new
drsmith said:
But in the meantime we have all those contracts signed for Labor's FTTP rollout.

I have no doubt the strategic review will make for interesting reading.

What exchange services Varsity Lakes QLD ?
Click to expand...

How can it be a strategic review if there's no copper audit? If the primary argument for an FTTN network is that by reusing the copper tail you save lots of $$$, but then have no factual basis to determine if this is true, then policy meet table napkin I'd say.

I'm trying to decide if MT is just wilfully ignoring the woeful state of the copper, or he genuinely believes he can get away with replacing just 10%.

Depending on where exactly you are in Varsity Lakes you could be on either Robina or Stephens exchanges. My employer has equipment at the Robina TEBA (Exchange)
 
Calliope said:
It certainly will. But this is the gist of it.
Click to expand...

Considering it's had some of the fatest take up rates of comparble projects around the world, that the majority of subscribers are putting their money into the top speed plans, I say the ALP NBN has more chance of making money than say the private sector toll roads like the Sydney Cross City Tunnel or the wonderful toll roads in the Sunshine State
 

Uptake is not to shabby.

Rollout is absolutely hopeless, and very reflective of the hopeless labor government of the past 6 year.

MW
 
medicowallet said:
Uptake is not to shabby.

Rollout is absolutely hopeless, and very reflective of the hopeless labor government of the past 6 year.

MW
Click to expand...

So you call practically the only rich OECD member to have real income growth as a poor legacy of the Labor Govt. If Tony is able to achieve the same I hope you are equally as disappointed.
 
Speed test this evening,

Data: 14 MB
Test Time: 10.01 secs

Your line speed is 11.63 Mbps (11635 kbps).
Your download speed is 1.42 MB/s (1454 KB/s).
Click to expand...

What have to seen to specifically suggest no assessment of the current copper network ?

The crux of the question in relation to Varsity Lakes is how far is your customer from the exchange ?
 
drsmith said:
Speed test this evening,

What have to seen to specifically suggest no assessment of the current copper network ?

The crux of the question in relation to Varsity Lakes is how far is your customer from the exchange ?
Click to expand...

Speed test = tests if you are able to get your sync speed. If your ISP has congestion at the exchange or on their peering links then you wont. Generally the cheaper the ISP, the more likely they are to run a t high contention ratios and experience congestion during their peaks - usually from around 6pm till 10pm, though it can be all day when apple releases a new version of IOS, or a very popular game releases a new version or large update.

I've not read anything to indicate MT has ordered a copper audit as part of the current review process. If you know of something please point me in the right direction. I dare say he can't do it because real world data would kill of much of his cheaper and faster argument, and it would also make negotiations tricky with Telstra if he's forced to pay for top dollar for the equivalent of a rusted 40 year old car.

Not exactly sure the distance the customer was from the Robina exchange, but we were using EFM (Ethernet First Mile) which allows the grouping of up to 32 copper lines to provide a link. At up to 1KM we can do that with 2, up to 2KM usually 3-5, up to 3KM it might need 5-8 lines, though I've seen in areas with good copper 15Mbs with 6 lines at over 2KM.

We have customers wanting to upgrade their services but Telstra are unwilling to install more copper as what's available doesn't even pass their relatively low SQ benchmarks.

To give you an idea of how Telstra are fudging things in the ADSL space, they used to set the SNR bar at 6.5 and lower was deemed to indicate a possible line issue. That's now been dropped to 5.5. The dB scale is logarithmic so a 1dB drop from 6.5 to 5.5 means the cut off mark for a potential fault is some 10 times "quieter" than the original one. SNR is how much louder the ADSL signal is compared to the background noise on the copper. Obviously higher SNR is better, whereas you want the attenuation (signal degradation) to be as low as possible. Attenuation is partly copper quality, but mainly length - ~13db each KM as a rough guide.

In the UK they will generally have a lower attenuation for a give cable length because they used 0.6mm whereas we took the cheap and nasty path by using 0.40mm, so when MT uses the UK as an example it's not particularly relevant to Australia. Most countries with FTTN are not directly transferable to Australia as they all seem to have better quality copper than us.
 
sydboy007 said:
I've not read anything to indicate MT has ordered a copper audit as part of the current review process.
Click to expand...

This offers a broad guide,


https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=798424

It's encouraging to know there are areas with good copper.
 
drsmith said:
This offers a broad guide,



https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=798424

It's encouraging to know there are areas with good copper.
Click to expand...

My point is he has claimed FTTN is cheaper than FTTP because of the reuse of the copper. He has no factual basis to make this claim. He's budged for 10% of the copper to be replaced. He wont even share the analysis that lead him to make that assumption. We have no access to any of the analysis that went into his network costings. Why?

If he has to replace 2 or 3 times more of the copper than he has budgeted for, then are his claims still valid?

I'd also argue that going forward there will be far more types of equipment and vendors, so there's likely to be an exponential increase in the number of compatibility issues that will plague the network. They wont all happen at the start, but as software and firmware upgrades occur you will get weird issues happening and vendors pointing the finger at each other. In my last 3 jobs I've seen this in networks that have pretty standard kit at the customer, access layer and core.
 
Syd,

A general question.

From where we currently stand, do you think we should still be engaging in a FTTP rollout to 93% of premises as outlined in Labor's original plan ?

If not, in what proportion should the fixed line rollout in part use other alternatives (such as FTTN) and for what situations would you consider such alternatives to be appropriate ?
 

I can see FTTB as being a viable alternative for MDUs. Leave it to the body corporates to decide if they use VDSL / Ethernet / Fiber into the individual properties, with the proviso that NBN has a list of tested compatible equipment to connect to the network.

For the rest, I'd argue over a 10 year period that FTTP will work out cheaper. The only way FTTN works out cheaper is if you disregard the cost of moving to FTTN at some point in the future.

FTTN uses more energy, requires hundreds of thousands of batteries to provide backup to the nodes, has higher ongoing maintenance costs, and as yet I've not heard MT advise how voice is going to be handled under FTTN. Will it be copper as we currently have, or like a UNI V port as the current NBN supports.

MT also hasn't acknowledge that a large chunk of NBN subscribers have taken up speeds higher than his 2016 rollout target, so the demand for high speed broadband is clearly already here, yet MT says you can have those speeds by 2016, and anyone who thinks you can roll out a FTTN in around 2 years to ~70% of current housing is dreaming. Factor in how many people on 12 or 25 Mbs plans will upgrade by 2016, and I don't see the value of the FTTN. It's cutting a small amount of costs now but will ensure a much larger cost in the future.
 

34% of premises in Australia are part of an MDU (Stephen Conroy).

You're obviously in favour of considering alternatives models for MDU's as per the second dot point of the strategic review below.


http://www.nbnco.com.au/about-us/media/news/nbn-co-strategic-review.html

For MDU's, is this a view you have always had, or has it evolved as the rollout has progressed and more information come to light ?

As for the rest, continuing to debate the finer detail of the Coalition's plan from opposition from the perspective of a rigid view on rejecting alternative models before the outcome of the strategic review is bound to involve an element of wasted keystrokes. The review itself is a process from which the Coalition government can refine the detail of its concept outlined from opposition and perhaps answer some of the questions presented.

It's a much better process than Stephen's Conroy's long and troubled journey to Damascus on MDU's and on his rollout ambitions in general.

My bolds.
 

For MDUs I didn't really know what the best way forward was going to be, but since there's such a focus on getting connected I feel NBN is better to get the pipe installed and then let any delays be the responsibility of the body corp. No point getting in the middle of the arguments as to how best to connect the apartments.

You seem to be arguing that the policy the Coalition went to the election is no longer relevant since they are doing a review now? Shouldn't these issues have been dealt with since they argued the FTTN is cheaper and faster? Sounds like they argued for their approach over a number of years, and only after getting approval are they now actually doing the appropriate analysis.

The Telco industry is now in a bit of a limbo. FTTP rollout will continue at a slowed pace, FTTN will not begin for around 1 year, possibly longer. Most of the issues to be examined in the review should have been dealt with in the Coalitions policy already, with a minimal refinement being employed now.

Will they even do some real world testing of nodes from vendors to see which ones can survive an Australian summer? We've already had a number of 40 degree days in Sydney and it's still early spring. The FTTN economics will be shot to pieces if it's determined active cooling will be required. Once again this issue should have been dealt with pre election.

You're very critical of the Labor Government's handling of the NBN rollout, yet seem to give MT a free pass. The policy they've presented isn't even half baked. MTs already moved the goal posts of the review from 60 days after forming Govt to 60 days after the new Chariman started. If Labor had done this I know you'd have been highly critical of it, yet you seem to feel it's OK since it's a Liberal doing the sleight of hand.

I'll also add that MT has a much easier job now that a lot of the regulatory framework via the ACCC has been ironed out, the backbone is nearly complete, pretty much all the POIs are operational. These costs in the NBN budget don't seem to be part of the FTTN budget.

Then there's the grand daddy of all issues in terms of how MT proposes to get access to the copper CAN without paying Telstra any extra $$$. As a Telstra shareholder providiing free access to what has been changed into a very valuable asset is not in my best interests. An outright purchase would kill the economics, and a leasing arrangement would probably cause FTTN plans to be higher than FTTP.

We also have the issue of will he wont he remove the anti cherry picking laws. If he does then that releases a whole new can of worms. If you live in an MDU what rights do you have? If TPG or IINet install their equipment will you be able to access another RSP? If multiple RSPs install their equipment how does one transfer a service between them?

MT did a nice publicity stunt at the Sydney Park Village when OPENetworks went live with their VDSL deployment. What he failed to mention is you have a choice of 2 RSPs. Their plans are quite uncompetitive compared to what's on offer via the NBN.
 
sydboy007 said:
You seem to be arguing that the policy the Coalition went to the election is no longer relevant since they are doing a review now?
Click to expand...
I'm simply suggesting that from this point it's better to wait for the outcome of the strategic review than keep one's knickers in a twist.
 
drsmith said:
I'm simply suggesting that from this point it's better to wait for the outcome of the strategic review than keep one's knickers in a twist.
Click to expand...

No twisted knickers here. Just lots of unasnwered questions that should have been answered prior to the election.

People on this forum claim the ALP had a poorly thought out policy, yet the Coalition seems to have done a half page essay for their final exam.

I'll be interested to see which Liberal affiliated company gets the lucrative contract from the NBN board to run the review. Possibly they'll have a chat to Gladys in NSW
 
sydboy007 said:
People on this forum claim the ALP had a poorly thought out policy, yet the Coalition seems to have done a half page essay for their final exam.
Click to expand...
you're exaggerating now Syd.

Labor's policy was poorly thought out as the results have shown. Indeed Stephen Conroy's own judgements are that the rollout targets were ambitious (in other words, fiction) and he himself was naive.

Labor failed in the job and after 6 years were sacked by the electorate. Part of that failure with their NBN was one of ideology. The Coalition at least is indicating the specific proportions that are FTTP and FTTN is subject to further analysis and that's a plus over Labor that gives their approach a greater chance of success.
 
There was an interesting segment on Tony Delroy's Nightlife show on the NBN yesterday evening. The Guest dished plenty of criticism around, both to Labor's project and the Coalition. It was broadcast between 7pm and 8pm WST (ABC radio 720 Perth ).

A link to the audio is unfortunately not available on ABC's Nightline website. Local coverage of the NSW fires is provided instead (10pm to 11pm EDST).

http://www.abc.net.au/nightlife/
 

I am on a 1.5MB X 20GB ADSL 1 and it drives me nuts as more media goes to vid and beyond. I cannot muti task, daughter goes to uni so we cannot share the net etc.

I was lined up for NBN but now I think MT will put me onto a fu(king street node rant over.

Not surprised at your and iinets experience.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

N
The Australian Human Rights Commission: A national disgrace
3 4 5
Replies
85
Views
15K
Tisme
A
National Broadband Network
23 24 25
Replies
483
Views
57K
sptrawler
ASF Mark III
7 8 9
Replies
173
Views
44K
mr. jeff
A
Money management
Replies
0
Views
4K
absolute1
A
R
Deception: use + abuse of information by governments + terrorists
Replies
2
Views
5K
reichstag911
R
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more...