National Broadband Network

[dombat]

I just can't understand these objections and those arguements that place a mere dollar value on this great national project....how can you value a project like this without considering or being able to value the immense impact it will have not only on our education system but health and business not to mention efficiency gains on the home front and even travel....tell me one other project that could effectively improve the living standards of every Australian. I work in health and I can assure you if this does not proceed you will be sorry as you get older....we desperately need this technology to improve services and to keep them within a reasonable cost limit. This advancement will enable the declining numbers of the health profession to be able to service and assist people to remain in their home (just one small benefit such a project will bring).
Even optus who lost the bid stated that though it was bad for the company IT was by far the best soloution for the nation. I for one will vote Rudd out if he backs down on this decision and I will mourn for all Australians and Australia if we do not proceed.

 

[Trembling Hand]

....how can you value a project like this without considering or being able to value the immense impact it will have not only on our education system but health and business not to mention efficiency gains on the home front and even travel....

Because we don't live in fairyland. Things have to be paid for and have to make money.

tell me one other project that could effectively improve the living standards of every Australian.

What about our collapsing food production areas. It will be nice for the farmer to have a virtual session with his shrink for depression over 100 meg fiber so they can talk about the lake of water in the Murry/Darling irrigation system.

I work in health and I can assure you if this does not proceed you will be sorry as you get older....we desperately need this technology to improve services and to keep them within a reasonable cost limit. This advancement will enable the declining numbers of the health profession to be able to service and assist people to remain in their home (just one small benefit such a project will bring).

Why so you can pay as a pensioner $200 per month to up load your blood sugar levels to your doctor on a fiber cable This solution will price out the very people you think its there to help.

I for one will vote Rudd out if he backs down on this decision and I will mourn for all Australians and Australia if we do not proceed.

Really? How will you even know? This is a 8 to 10 year project. He will be gone by the time this, if it even starts, will be able to be judged.

 

[MrBurns]

I've got no complaint with the speed now to be honest.

Build a pipeline from North Qld to Vctoria if you want to do something useful, we're running out of water and the brains trust that is the Vic Govt are useless.

 

[drsmith]

I've got no complaint with the speed now to be honest.

1km from the exchange I get 14mb/s. That's on Telstra's copper network.

Paying $100 per month (double what I pay now) for 100mb/s is not something I would regard as value for money.

 

[MrBurns]

1km from the exchange I get 14mb/s. That's on Telstra's copper network.

Paying $100 per month (double what I pay now) for 100mb/s is not something I would regard as value for money.

I just tested at 33 sounds slow but it's pretty fast really.

They should patch the system where it's needed such as your problem and just get on with something more useful, most Labor voters cant tie their own shoelaces let alone use faster broadband properly, the slower they doownload their pr0n the better anyway

 

[Aussiejeff]

heres a good one from the age,
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/ot...-harebrained-scheme-20090408-a0y4.html?page=3

In Rome, the emperors offered the mob "bread and circuses". Our little emperor reckons he can get away with circuses alone.

Even worse, the emperor has no clothes!!

 

[MrBurns]

That was a good article, some would say he's being negative !!! I say he 's spot on the money

 

[Aussiejeff]

That was a good article, some would say he's being negative !!! I say he 's spot on the money

Without some "waves of negativity" to balance out the pounding "waves of optimism" currently crashing on the shores of Oz, we would all be floating off on a giant Pink Bubble with the faeries...

 

[badger41]

Back in the 1960s, pretty much the entire aviation industry thought faster aircraft (think supersonic) was the future. So the Concorde as developed and built.

Then along came the 747, with operating costs just a fraction of the Concorde's. And the customers voted with their feet (and wallets).

The rest is history!

 

[Prospector]

Back in the 1960s, pretty much the entire aviation industry thought faster aircraft (think supersonic) was the future. So the Concorde as developed and built.

Then along came the 747, with operating costs just a fraction of the Concorde's. And the customers voted with their feet (and wallets).

The rest is history!

And then the Concorde crashed.

 

[Julia]

Why so you can pay as a pensioner $200 per month to up load your blood sugar levels to your doctor on a fiber cable This solution will price out the very people you think its there to help.

Exactly so. I heard an enthusiast for the scheme joyfully proclaiming that with this magical system a worried mother would be able to 'have a visual conversation' with a practice nurse about her child who has a temperature.
The nurse would then be able to tell the anxious mother that she should give the child paracetomol. What the ***** do they think has been happening via telephone for decades???

I can see a case for an inexperienced surgeon having visual contact with a specialist in the process of an operation, but if I were the patient I'd prefer the money to be spent on sending me to the specialist in the first place.

I've got no complaint with the speed now to be honest.

Build a pipeline from North Qld to Vctoria if you want to do something useful, we're running out of water and the brains trust that is the Vic Govt are useless.

Completely agree on both counts. Include South Australia in the pipeline.

1km from the exchange I get 14mb/s. That's on Telstra's copper network.

Paying $100 per month (double what I pay now) for 100mb/s is not something I would regard as value for money.

Me neither.

 

[dombat]

Why so you can pay as a pensioner $200 per month to up load your blood sugar levels to your doctor on a fiber cable This solution will price out the very people you think its there to help.

Well no, of course that is not what this is about - you will be able to do a basic check up...but the point is in the future the cost of health will escalate and is escalating beyond belief...this project would enable us to stop the process of multiple repeat and i do mean repeated tests, it would unify the health system. Next you will all complain about the cost of health in the future....you bag this initiative but don't give an alternative. The cynism here is appalling. I agree will still need to consider both water and power, particularly in Victoria where Brumby has just gone on ignore mode. The deaths resulting from the heatwave should have prompted action together with the rolling blackouts...but no ...still no policy regarding the lack of power in this state.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Its the best idea the Ruddmeister has come up with.

I may even vote for the pigeon toed one eyed little sob in the next election.

In NQ we have been plagued by poor internet connections.

gg

 

[dombat]

Julia and Trembling Hand the initiatives you guys are talking about is because of lack of knowledge in the field....the examples just show what little idea you have in this area...this project would allow people with severe complaints to go home and be monitored very closely...for example someone with a cardiac problem to be monitored via a 3 lead ecg...saving thousands in unnecessary hospital visits and ambulance call outs. To be able to get an accurate health status check on someone without even visiting their homes...the increased efficiencies would be enormous. You both show a lot of cynicism and an extraordinary ability to complain....gee I would like to employ you Where is your vision? Just out of interest do you believe in climate change? Either of you?

 

[drsmith]

If this is so visionary where was the idea 12 months ago when the financial environment was much better ?

 

[waz]

Also, if this is so visionary, why doesn't every country in the world do it????

If this is so visionary and can't go wrong, why wasn't it made an election promise? Chances are if so many people like it so much, Labor would have got more votes.

If this is so visionary, why bother wasting the last 9 months on the 2nd best solution, when we could have picked this solution ages ago?

If this is visionary, why bother asking for a private partner to help?

If this is visionary, why try and sell it in a few years time?

Dombat, I take it you have knowledge in the field of health services. There are also people on this forum who have knowledge in the field of water, electricity, finance, social equality, project management and telecomunications, we can even go as far saying geography.

While I agree with your benefits, those benefits will not happen if we run out of water to survive, have no electricity to run this medical equipment you talk about, we all die in a nuclear war, or if the planet warms so much that we all fry to death or drown in the floods. Yes Im being extreme, but Im a visionary, I can't help it.

Yes it is a great project, however there is an OPPORTUNITY COST, everything in life has an opportunity cost whether you like it or not.

The more money we spend on NBN, the less money/resources we have to spend on other things (which may be more important to the survival of our species).

Im such a visionary that my broad mind knows that the world faces many problems, this is just one of them. The solutions to its problems are also many.

For eg. if so many people are suffering from cardiac issues, why not spend $42bil on cash hand outs and force these people to join a gym and exericse. You may think its a silly solution and doesn't solve the problem, but hey, at least I can call it visionary. With all these people now walking/cycling to work, I have also reduced car usage, thus reducing pollution. Also, instead of having 37,000 people employed to lay cables, these people will now work on a cure for every cancer known. Im assuming that 37,000 people exist that can be trained to do whatever task we give them.
Looks like I have solved three problems, health care, greenhouse emissions and cure for every cancer , all with the one visionary project.

Are we understanding the concept of Opportunity cost now???

 

[nulla nulla]

I just can't understand these objections and those arguements that place a mere dollar value on this great national project....how can you value a project like this without considering or being able to value the immense impact it will have not only on our education system but health and business not to mention efficiency gains on the home front and even travel....tell me one other project that could effectively improve the living standards of every Australian. I work in health and I can assure you if this does not proceed you will be sorry as you get older....we desperately need this technology to improve services and to keep them within a reasonable cost limit. This advancement will enable the declining numbers of the health profession to be able to service and assist people to remain in their home (just one small benefit such a project will bring).
Even optus who lost the bid stated that though it was bad for the company IT was by far the best soloution for the nation. I for one will vote Rudd out if he backs down on this decision and I will mourn for all Australians and Australia if we do not proceed.

Yep, i can see it now. "Trust me, I'm a doctor, it is perfectly safe and your privacy is protected. Now if you would just disrobe young lady, in front of your pc-cam, i will perform a mamogram".
Yeah right. Medicine over the internet, telephone etc etc. This would be fantastic for doctors bulk billing patients through medicare. They could hook up 5-6 pcs with multiple screens each and consult with 10 - 20 patients per 15 minutes, 40-80 patients per hour, 8hrs per day, 5 days per week 1600 - 3200 patients bulk billed per week. Yeah right. We really need this.

 

[Julia]

Also, if this is so visionary, why doesn't every country in the world do it????

If this is so visionary and can't go wrong, why wasn't it made an election promise? Chances are if so many people like it so much, Labor would have got more votes.

If this is so visionary, why bother wasting the last 9 months on the 2nd best solution, when we could have picked this solution ages ago?

If this is visionary, why bother asking for a private partner to help?

If this is visionary, why try and sell it in a few years time?

Dombat, I take it you have knowledge in the field of health services. There are also people on this forum who have knowledge in the field of water, electricity, finance, social equality, project management and telecomunications, we can even go as far saying geography.

While I agree with your benefits, those benefits will not happen if we run out of water to survive, have no electricity to run this medical equipment you talk about, we all die in a nuclear war, or if the planet warms so much that we all fry to death or drown in the floods. Yes Im being extreme, but Im a visionary, I can't help it.

Yes it is a great project, however there is an OPPORTUNITY COST, everything in life has an opportunity cost whether you like it or not.

The more money we spend on NBN, the less money/resources we have to spend on other things (which may be more important to the survival of our species).

Im such a visionary that my broad mind knows that the world faces many problems, this is just one of them. The solutions to its problems are also many.

For eg. if so many people are suffering from cardiac issues, why not spend $42bil on cash hand outs and force these people to join a gym and exericse. You may think its a silly solution and doesn't solve the problem, but hey, at least I can call it visionary. With all these people now walking/cycling to work, I have also reduced car usage, thus reducing pollution. Also, instead of having 37,000 people employed to lay cables, these people will now work on a cure for every cancer known. Im assuming that 37,000 people exist that can be trained to do whatever task we give them.
Looks like I have solved three problems, health care, greenhouse emissions and cure for every cancer , all with the one visionary project.

Are we understanding the concept of Opportunity cost now???

Excellent summary. Says it all for me.

 

[dombat]

Waz - it was part of the election platform (where have you been?)
Nulla- 'Yep, i can see it now. "Trust me, I'm a doctor, it is perfectly safe and your privacy is protected. Now if you would just disrobe young lady, in front of your pc-cam, i will perform a mamogram".
Yeah right. Medicine over the internet, telephone etc etc. This would be fantastic for doctors bulk billing patients through medicare. They could hook up 5-6 pcs with multiple screens each and consult with 10 - 20 patients per 15 minutes, 40-80 patients per hour, 8hrs per day, 5 days per week 1600 - 3200 patients bulk billed per week. Yeah right. We really need this.

So Nulla what is your soloution I would love to hear it -- you clearly have no idea of the declining numbers in the health profession...if you don't like the soloution you will have the choice of face to face contact --but I promise you it will cost you a fortune. At least this way the marjority of Australians will maintain a reasonable standard of health service at a reasonable cost. The opportunity cost to this (WAZ - looking right back at you honey)- you simply will not get a health service or be able to afford it . Again give me one national project that will benefit all Australians to this degree - as for this food bowl business of the murray darling - well maybe we need to relocate the food bowl up north a bit. It was on this very forum that someone worked out that a pipeline from here to queensland was unfeasible - cheaper to ship the water down.

 

[waz]

Again give me one national project that will benefit all Australians to this degree.

Since Im not educated in the field of health, I've been lucky to gain some insights into some of the problems, this is what my honey told me:

# It appears that there is a massive shortage of health professionals in this country.

# The cost of health care is going up to a level that most people cannot afford and in years to come they will be complaining about it.

# There are unnecessary hospital visits and ambulance call outs.

# There are 37,000 people who are looking for work.

# Our hospital system is so overcrowded that people with severe complaints are sent home even though they need to be monitored very closely.

# We have an health system which is not unified.

Golly gosh, it appears Australia's health system is screwed and is in need of urgent repair. Shouldn't this be our number 1 priority right now. I think so, Im not be sarcastic, I actually agree with you dombat. You do realise we are on the same side right I really dont care for the Labor vs. non-Labor talk that gets into nearly every thread on govt policy.

With 42bil, we could provide training for 37,000 people to join the healthcare system, build more hospitals, provide enough places so that people who need close monitoring are not sent home, build simple health clinics so that people do not waste the resources of our hospitals Emergency departments, the fed gov can take hospital management away from the states, our ambulance service can finally get the budget it deserves, PBS can be expanded, people employed in the industry can get a pay rise, encouraging more people to join the industry, etc... this was the type of opportunity cost I was alluding to.

Dombat, you forgot to answer my other question. Why aren't other countries building this network if it's so great?
One reason may be that they have prioritised healthcare above telco infrastructure and will aim to tackle the root cause of health care issues instead of treating the symptoms as a bolt-on benefit of another project, such has sending people home as there are not enough beds and telling them to sit in front of their computer (we are assuming that people who are struggling to afford healthcare can afford a computer and whatever monitoring equipment they need).

The water from QLD to VIC is a very good analogy (Building a pipe over just shipping water). Why bother spending mega bucks to build an unfeasible FTTH when its cheaper to just build hospitals and everything else I mentioned above.

The only way to know if it is feasible is to come up with the figures for both scenarios. Which has not been done. So what information does the House of Reps and Senate have to make this decision. None, just dreams.

In conclusion, there are many ways to spend $42bil, is a FTTH project the best way to spend it, or are there more important, urgent projects such as health care where we do not have to worry about out of date technology, competition, private funding and providing compensation.