Middle class parents apparently, should choose public schools to improve equity

I thought this was a real example of a failed system, crying for help.

http://www.news.nom.co/go-public-to-improve-equity-in-all-8305826-news/

We were fortunate enough to have bought a house in a new suburb, our sons were in the first intake to the public high school.

Our daughter was one year behind the boys, she had a dissability (deaf) I asked my sons "will there be a problem at the school with her deafness". Their answer "yes".

We decided to send her to private school, best decission ever, she completed year 12.

Now a productive member of society, making her own way in life.

Public schools can't enact discipline, private schools still have that ability.

That's the problem with a union run school system, you get what you get, not what you pay for.IMO

Untill the public schools bring back disipline, they will lose more and more students, as more parents can afford private.

sptrawler said:

That's the problem with a union run school system,

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your evidence of this union run system?
It's as about as union run as the police force

sptrawler said:

I thought this was a real example of a failed system, crying for help.

http://www.news.nom.co/go-public-to-improve-equity-in-all-8305826-news/



Public schools can't enact discipline, private schools still have that ability.

That's the problem with a union run school system, you get what you get, not what you pay for.IMO

Untill the public schools bring back disipline, they will lose more and more students, as more parents can afford private.

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'Read'n write'n arrifmatic all taught to the tune of the hickery stick'?

Or we could start an intergenerational bipartisan transition toward world best practice
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs.../12/03/are-finlands-vaunted-schools-slipping/

That even when it appears to be backsliding is still streets out in front.
But it's implementation presents' as a 'clear and present danger' to a Private school system now processing over 30%, and gaining more by stealth, of our students, at great financial and future societal cost. Let alone the threat such a system poses to the 'olde boy network' referenced in the quoted article.
The parental perspective from St Andrews Cathedral School. A teacher from that school was caught taking 'up-skirt' photo's of female students last year. Haven't heard much about that lately. That teachers father was a Supreme Court Judge...'well olde boy' bad form to mention that!

a two year old lateline interview with Pasi Sahlberg Finish Director of education
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2012/s3441913.htm

Dare I suggest that a population armoured with better critical capacities would not of been conned out of billions in mining tax revenues by a $27 million disinformation campaign by vested interests.

May as well posted my biased, anecdotal, opinionated viewpoint.

Covering a span of 11 years, our children attended a public primary school. Secondary schooling was at private; not a Catholic one as I was baptised a lapsed Roman Catholic.

At the primary school we, and a number of others, were aware there were some wealthy parents. Could have bought and sold us using petty cash. The amount they contributed to the school in the way of voluntary contributions or paying for school excursions? Nothing. Zero. Zilch. Didn't even see any of them assisting at the school fetes.

One of the factors involved in our children then going private was the principals seemed to be on high rotation. Nine principals over 11 years. Programs introduced, changed, dropped seemingly on a mere whim. Oh we have a Gifted & Talented program. Next principle, Oh they should be role models. And the same appeared to us to be occurring at the local high school. Complete shambles.

Cannot say if that was the case at every public school or whether it is situation now but it was at the time in our area.

Another factor was one of our children was assessed by the primary school as being of low capacity and was “special needs.” Love labels. Private school entrance assessment. Note at this point: it wasn't selective entrance examination. It was designed to assess ability. Got back to us. Indications are your child has dyslexia. No problems, pretty common, easy to accommodate for it. Guess which school system got our business. Child passed Year 12. Did OK, not brilliant but better than being incorrectly classified as a dummy and stuck at the back of the class.

Mind you, spending the equivalent of three round the world trips for six years of secondary schooling for each child was not our idea of fun.

At private school usual fair share of ratbag kids. My Daddy has this and my Mummy does that. Our children knew who was doing the drugs or getting wasted on weekends and simply avoided them like the plague.

Some of my observations on public/private secondary schools.

Had occasion to visit public school at various time. Empty at 3:30 pm. Seemingly no one but cleaning staff. Could shoot a canon down a corridor and not hit anyone. Private school, 100 or more kids in the library quietly working away. Plus activity apparently happening everywhere, music, sport additional and voluntary classes in subjects if the students wanted additional assistance. Basically the school was open and functioning from around 7 in the morning until 6 at night.

As for funding, last time I looked, the secondary school our kids attended received just on $3,000 per student combined from the State and Federal. I suspect they would rather pay that then $11,000 per year in public but I don't really know. Be funny if there was a tsunami from private to public. Does the State actually have the infrastructure to accommodate such an eventuality? Mezzanine floors in the classrooms anyone?

In addition, I just cannot see State bureaucracy allowing public schools retaining any bequest made by a well off family. Would they allow a public school to hold say a $2m - $3m endowment for encouraging art or languages? As for ceasing any State/Federal funding to private school, well, yes but I am just guessing if that occurred, there is nothing to say those funds would then flow to the public sector. There is a Budget to consider you understand.

Schooling is a case of "competition improves the breed". Breed being the schools, not the children.

Of course there is a "ruling class" mentality about private schools. Employers are probably more likely to choose someone based on their school tie, all else being equal. I suppose that's a justification for some to send their kids private as well.

rumpole said:

Schooling is a case of "competition improves the breed". Breed being the schools, not the children.

Of course there is a "ruling class" mentality about private schools. Employers are probably more likely to choose someone based on their school tie, all else being equal. I suppose that's a justification for some to send their kids private as well.

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Possibly but I am mostly careful with sweeping generalisations.

It was rather humerous sometimes, especially if the private school decided to have a morning breakfast for parents and students to mingle in a social setting.

You would roll up and see a line of parked Mercs, BMWs and the odd Porsche (and those were the Year 12 students - that's a joke but then again...) Then other children would be getting out of Dad's work ute with a trailer chocka with ladders, saws and the like which would then thunder off 'cause he was late getting to the work site. An eclectic mix.

rumpole said:

Of course there is a "ruling class" mentality about private schools. Employers are probably more likely to choose someone based on their school tie, all else being equal. I suppose that's a justification for some to send their kids private as well.

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Judd said:

You would roll up and see a line of parked Mercs, BMWs and the odd Porsche (and those were the Year 12 students - that's a joke but then again...) Then other children would be getting out of Dad's work ute with a trailer chocka with ladders, saws and the like which would then thunder off 'cause he was late getting to the work site. An eclectic mix.

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Rumpole's assertion is pretty out of date, if indeed it ever applied.
A huge number of working class parents who do value education will make considerable sacrifices in other directions in order to send their children to private schools.

Julia said:

Rumpole's assertion is pretty out of date, if indeed it ever applied.
A huge number of working class parents who do value education will make considerable sacrifices in other directions in order to send their children to private schools.

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I'm not arguing that, I'm saying some parents send their kids to private schools because of their perception that the kids will get preferential treatment in the job market because of their school tie.

I'm not arguing the validity of that perception, just that it exists.

Also interested that you use the term "working class". Isn't that expression a bit out of date itself ?

Don't doctors and managing directors work ?

Seems"class warfare" isn't dead yet.



It also occurs to me that since the Abbot government is busy cutting subsidies to industries, why shouldn't private schools be on the list as well ?

Sadly sending your kids to private school is also becoming a “Status” thing particularly amongst the Asian community.

Very sad that so many people have such a low opinion of the state schools and let snobbery dictate there decisions, my kids went to state schools and both are now at university, yet when I said were my kids went to school some people look almost sorry for you and surprised they got any further than year 10.

One of the many joys of living in the Western Suburbs of sydney and working for those in the North and East, some I doubt have ever ventured further than Chatswood chase.

Julia said:

Rumpole's assertion is pretty out of date, if indeed it ever applied.

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I think it still applies in Sydney and Melbourne in certain industries, finance and law being the two biggies. Having said that, if you went to some private school out in Western Sydney, you'll be pretty much considered to have gone to a public school by anyone from the North Shore or Eastern Suburbs. Would you believe I'm 32 and still get asked what school I went to on a pretty regular basis.

I think the CAS/GPS schools in Sydney get too much government funding.

Julia said:

Rumpole's assertion is pretty out of date, if indeed it ever applied.
A huge number of working class parents who do value education will make considerable sacrifices in other directions in order to send their children to private schools.

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+1

This sums up my husband and myself. It also occurs to me that we pay our fair share of tax, but don't use the public school system and are not a burden upon it. Why should our children's' education not be partially funded by the taxpayer, simply because we choose to tip in a fair bit extra on top? My understanding is that combined federal/state funding per non-govt school student is considerably less than that for a public school student - fees paid by parents making up the bulk of the income of private schools. Would the taxpayer be better off if all those private school kids joined the public system at a far greater cost? I think not.

If the unions and dead wood in the public education system would allow for the change a lot of parents dream of, there'd be more of us happy to send our kids to public schools and spend our hard-earned on the things we've been doing without. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem as though entry standards for teaching are likely to be raised, nor a system of assessment or review which would help to move out the teachers who couldn't give a toss and are just going through the motions until retirement. There are some truly excellent teachers in the public system, but there are also some dreadful ones, and it seems next to impossible to weed them out.

The better part of me acknowledges that in an ideal world, all children would have the same opportunity to get a first class education, as they don't get to choose their parents, their socioeconomic status or where they live. It is wrong in a lot of ways that my children benefit from going to a fantastic private school with motivated teachers, yet other children get sent to an overcrowded and under-funded public school with teachers that may not be of the highest standard. I feel for those other kids, but I have had to make my choice based on the education system we currently have, and the schools in my neighbourhood - and I only get to choose for my kids. In the end it wasn't a difficult choice to make.

There are some excellent public schools, however to get in them requires buying a house in their catchment area.

This usually attracts a premium, for example, Rosmoyne Senior high School in Perth, it ranks in the top 10 schools most years.

Try buying a house in its catchment area, it would be cheaper to just send your child to a private school.

From my observations, it appears impossible to control student behaviour in a public school.
Whereas in a private school the principal can ask a student and their parents to find another school.
This has a huge impact on student behaviour, one loud disruptive student, can ensure a deaf student gets zero benefit from a lesson.
They also have the ability to not renew a teachers contract, if they feel the teacher isn't an assett
Try that in a public school, from what I've heard, the principal can't move on an underperforming teacher.
Apparently the school, just has to wait untill the teacher decides to leave.
This in itself, would encourage poorly performing teachers to stay in the public system and only confident, motivated teachers wanting to challenge their skills, being attracted to the private sector.

It's a bit like a company, when it wants to downsize, they have to offer voluntary redundancy, rather than selective forced.
The problem that usually happens, the good workers who can pick up employment anywhere take it, those not so confident stay.

I have formed my opinion from personal experience and also from talking to my late father in law. Who was a dedicated teacher and school Principal for his working life.

I think discipline and standards would be the main concern for most parents, and as you say, they are hard to enforce in public schools that have to cater for the "lowest common denominator".

I don't know exactly what the current funding model for private schools is, but it seems easiest for the Feds & States to pay a set amount per student for both public and private, and let the parents make up the rest for private education.

I remember reading somewhere that postcode of the school has something to do with deciding funding, which seems strange to me.

sptrawler said:

I have formed my opinion from personal experience and also from talking to my late father in law. Who was a dedicated teacher and school Principal for his working life.

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Coincidentally, it hasn't escaped my notice that many of the students at my child's private school have parents who are public school teachers. My neighbour was a primary state school principal who also sent his children to the same private school in my area that my son attends. It says something when they don't support the system that employs them. I asked one couple, both of whom teach at a local state high school, why they didn't send their children to the school they both taught at? They told me that they felt their son was likely to get a better academic result at the private school, but their main reason was because of the far superior disciplinary standards and a desire to keep him away from some of the gangs and delinquents they had to contend with on a daily basis. As I said, there are some excellent teachers at public schools, and they often don't get the support they need to actually teach. So much of their time seems to be spent in dealing with kids who only want to be disruptive, and their parents who couldn't care less. Sadly, you can't legislate against poor parenting.

DocK said:

Coincidentally, it hasn't escaped my notice that many of the students at my child's private school have parents who are public school teachers. My neighbour was a primary state school principal who also sent his children to the same private school in my area that my son attends. It says something when they don't support the system that employs them. I asked one couple, both of whom teach at a local state high school, why they didn't send their children to the school they both taught at? They told me that they felt their son was likely to get a better academic result at the private school, but their main reason was because of the far superior disciplinary standards and a desire to keep him away from some of the gangs and delinquents they had to contend with on a daily basis. As I said, there are some excellent teachers at public schools, and they often don't get the support they need to actually teach. So much of their time seems to be spent in dealing with kids who only want to be disruptive, and their parents who couldn't care less. Sadly, you can't legislate against poor parenting.

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Nor can you get rid of them.
If the government shut down private schools, I'm sure parents would be trying to save enough money to send their kids overseas for an education.
It is really weird in Australia, we call a spade a spade, unless it offends loud offensive groups, that shout you down.lol

Also from personal observations, I've found the loudest are usually the laziest. lol

rumpole said:

I'm not arguing that, I'm saying some parents send their kids to private schools because of their perception that the kids will get preferential treatment in the job market because of their school tie.

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That probably is the case in some industries/professions. As long as it exists, it is what it is, and you can't blame parents for including it in their consideration of where to have their children educated.

Also interested that you use the term "working class". Isn't that expression a bit out of date itself ?

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No more out of date than the constant repetitions by the unions and others about "working people". It encompasses the same group of people.
It rankles with me too when these critics imply that only people in what we have traditionally called blue collar industries do any real work. So yes, the expression should be relegated to the past. In the meantime, we all know what is meant when it is used.

It also occurs to me that since the Abbot government is busy cutting subsidies to industries, why shouldn't private schools be on the list as well ?

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Dock has very appropriately addressed this in her post.

Panaman said:

Sadly sending your kids to private school is also becoming a “Status” thing particularly amongst the Asian community.

Very sad that so many people have such a low opinion of the state schools and let snobbery dictate there decisions,

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Why would you assume that it's 'snobbery' that dictates such a decision? You might be fortunate enough to live in an area with a high quality public school. Do a bit of a trawl across public schools in the regions and you couldn't get your children to a private school fast enough.
Abusive, out of control kids who come from disadvantaged backgrounds. Perhaps not their fault. They have received no good modelling from parents. But the public school can't throw them out and as a consequence many teachers spend much of the time trying to control the classroom chaos, an environment which makes it impossible for the well motivated students to learn.

McLovin said:

I think it still applies in Sydney and Melbourne in certain industries, finance and law being the two biggies.

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OK, the concept has probably developed with good reason. Some educational institutions are well known for their high standards, not just in an academic sense, but for the social and ethical values they attempt to instil into their students.

Dock's comments about the public school teachers choosing to send their own children to a private school speaks volumes imo.

I have been having the public vs private school discussion with my wife for ages. I went to public school while my wife went to private. She's very keen to send our kids to private school and have already put their names down on the list. I love it how you pay $500 and all you get is an email back to say look forward to year 2023 when you child reaches school age. It feels like a Startrek year.

I enjoyed my public school years and I did very well academically through that and into Uni and then a Master degree some years later. I have never had anyone questioning which highschool I attended in job interviews etc. May be my grades in Uni alone was more than enough. There were quite a few other bright students in my year who went on to outstanding professional careers... doctors, lawyers, engineers, university lecturers, even another trader! My overall impression of public school is that, as long as it's an OK school, good students will be good and bad students will be bad.

On the other hand, I fully appreciate the fact that, having not attended a private school, I simply don't know what I may be missing. I want to give my kids the best education and opportunities in life where possible. While I have heard plenty of people question whether private schools are worth the money, I rarely hear that private schools are inferior. So it comes down to this... if I can afford to send my kids to a private school and it gives them some marginal, incremental benefits for the rest of their lives, then that's what I would do. All other considerations are somewhat secondary.

skc said:

I have been having the public vs private school discussion with my wife for ages. I went to public school while my wife went to private. She's very keen to send our kids to private school and have already put their names down on the list. I love it how you pay $500 and all you get is an email back to say look forward to year 2023 when you child reaches school age. It feels like a Startrek year.

I enjoyed my public school years and I did very well academically through that and into Uni and then a Master degree some years later. I have never had anyone questioning which highschool I attended in job interviews etc. May be my grades in Uni alone was more than enough. There were quite a few other bright students in my year who went on to outstanding professional careers... doctors, lawyers, engineers, university lecturers, even another trader! My overall impression of public school is that, as long as it's an OK school, good students will be good and bad students will be bad.

On the other hand, I fully appreciate the fact that, having not attended a private school, I simply don't know what I may be missing. I want to give my kids the best education and opportunities in life where possible. While I have heard plenty of people question whether private schools are worth the money, I rarely hear that private schools are inferior. So it comes down to this... if I can afford to send my kids to a private school and it gives them some marginal, incremental benefits for the rest of their lives, then that's what I would do. All other considerations are somewhat secondary.

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Like I said in an earlier post, there are some public schools which are rated extremely highly.
The cost to purchase a property in their catchment, is normaly factored into the purchase price.

and you can't blame parents for including it in their consideration of where to have their children educated.

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I don't.

Abusive, out of control kids who come from disadvantaged backgrounds. Perhaps not their fault. They have received no good modelling from parents. But the public school can't throw them out and as a consequence many teachers spend much of the time trying to control the classroom chaos, an environment which makes it impossible for the well motivated students to learn.

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This is an obvious problem. What is the State system to do about it ? The only thing I can think of is to have special schools where problem students can be sent where the discipline is higher.

They may not learn anything, but at least it gets them out of the way of people of those who do want to learn.

rumpole said:

This is an obvious problem. What is the State system to do about it ? The only thing I can think of is to have special schools where problem students can be sent where the discipline is higher.

They may not learn anything, but at least it gets them out of the way of people of those who do want to learn.

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And anyway, this would be a State issue. QLD-> LNP, NSW->LNP, VIC->LNP, what are they doing about it ?

rumpole said:

And anyway, this would be a State issue. QLD-> LNP, NSW->LNP, VIC->LNP, what are they doing about it ?

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They have done something about it. Called "Youth Correctional Facilities." They then graduate to the Big Boys House.

I simply take the view that there is such a wide spectrum of abilities, personalities and abilities there is probably not one solution in regard to which is the best, if there is such a thing, school in either the public or private sector for educating children.

As a parent I just took a punt based on what information was available and observations made at the time for my children and my children only and the finances involved. What others did was none of my concern or a factor. However, I also understood in making the decision I had absolutely no cast-iron guarantee of the outcome.

If other parents agreed or cast scorn on my choice, pffft to them.