Melbourne G20 summit

[RichKid]

I believe the right to peaceful protest in public places is an essential aspect of a modern, liberal democracy. Neither protesters or police should be allowed to use unlawful violence, whether it be the former harming persons or property (either private or public) or the latter using unnecessary violence (by way of weapons or animals- horse's hooves are dangerous, especially when you charge people). I personally don't think animals which scare so easily should be placed amongst a crowd like this, it's a crude device for crowd control and can cause serious injury to all involved. Trying heavy handed tactics on either side will not help but aggravate the problem, violence begets violence. And I agree, those in positions of leadership on either side should discourage excessive force, there is no excuse for inflicting physical injury when it can be prevented.

Moreover, the points raised about the media's role in this is very important- if you only have a dozen out of thousands causing havoc why should all the other, innocent, law abiding protesters be castigated? As with most reporting of political and legal matters the journalists get it wrong, they just play to people's insecurities by trying to portray all people who voice opinions against the establishment as being rowdy, especially if they're young and dressed in a certain way. Imagine if we just did nothing in the 60's and 70's when so many people took to the streets in the name of so many worthy causes.

Responsible and peaceful protests and assemblies are proud traditions tha are worth preserving. We should at least discuss the problems at the root of these protests rather than worrying about the form of expression alone.

 

[123enen]

I would.

There is no longer a right to protest in Australia.

Chops, I've been at this all day in different forums and debates. I'm a bit fired up.

Protestors have every right to protest. They don't have a right to believe they are above the law and can smash and damage any property they choose.

So some of the scumbag thugs had some pleasure in smashing the police brawler van. I suppose the van attacked them first.

 

[123enen]

I have been to many protests that have got out of hand and I can safely say that violence has never been instigated by protestors (at the ones I have been to).

The best thing the police can do with big crowds is be totally passive. So long as they don't do anything to inflame the masses, i.e. beat bystanders/ leaders/ anyone up, they don't have anything to fear.
So long as the police are prepared to wait out the protesters, they get bored and move on. Unfortunately, they are under orders to get everyone to move. That's where the problem lies.

What a load of rot. The anarchist thugs that were behind this violence went there with the express purpose of causing damage. That was their agenda.
This might help


Melbourne, Australia: A Call to form an Arterial Bloc for Saturday November 18 in the G20 protests

This is what we want: lives worth living, lives of dignity and autonomy and we want to work together against capitalism and the state to achieve this.
We want to develop collective power and collective communication. Not to follow, not to lead, but to work out how we can organise ourselves.
<snip>
This is what we're planning: To confront the G20 more directly: to go to the Grand Hyatt Hotel the morning of its meeting, Saturday November 18, prepared for radical disobedience. We want our disobedience and our creation of other ways of living to be effective as we can make it.

<snip>

This is what we're planning: To carry, as a bloc, white overalls and bright bandanas to cover our faces and to be ready, if we decided collectively, to wear them. We encourage those that want to struggle with us as part of the Arterial Block to organise this equipment

By having the option of becoming clandestine we are refusing the rules of the game of civil protest, the containment of the 'good protester'.
We are choosing not to be compliant citizens who make their wishes, and show their faces, to 'their representatives.' Rather we are relying only on our own disobedience and our co-operative power.

We are constantly subjected to the surveillance of the state and yet made invisible by the simulated reality of power, their media, their ideology, a world of things and their prices. By having the choice to become invisible, we can subvert this. They may not see our faces but we shall show our anger, our creativity and our ungovernable desires.

www.infoshop.org/inews/a...0061109233503866

 

[wayneL]

What a load of rot. The anarchist thugs that were behind this violence went there with the express purpose of causing damage. That was their agenda.
This might help


Melbourne, Australia: A Call to form an Arterial Bloc for Saturday November 18 in the G20 protests

This is what we want: lives worth living, lives of dignity and autonomy and we want to work together against capitalism and the state to achieve this.
We want to develop collective power and collective communication. Not to follow, not to lead, but to work out how we can organise ourselves.
<snip>
This is what we're planning: To confront the G20 more directly: to go to the Grand Hyatt Hotel the morning of its meeting, Saturday November 18, prepared for radical disobedience. We want our disobedience and our creation of other ways of living to be effective as we can make it.

<snip>

This is what we're planning: To carry, as a bloc, white overalls and bright bandanas to cover our faces and to be ready, if we decided collectively, to wear them. We encourage those that want to struggle with us as part of the Arterial Block to organise this equipment

By having the option of becoming clandestine we are refusing the rules of the game of civil protest, the containment of the 'good protester'.
We are choosing not to be compliant citizens who make their wishes, and show their faces, to 'their representatives.' Rather we are relying only on our own disobedience and our co-operative power.

We are constantly subjected to the surveillance of the state and yet made invisible by the simulated reality of power, their media, their ideology, a world of things and their prices. By having the choice to become invisible, we can subvert this. They may not see our faces but we shall show our anger, our creativity and our ungovernable desires.

www.infoshop.org/inews/a...0061109233503866

Thats nonsense (the article, not you 123enen). If there was evidence of my false flag theory, surely that would qualify.

 

[Julia]

Yes, well, one can hardly describe the content of the last post contributed by 123Enen as having peaceful intentions!

Re the suggestion of police remaining passive: So you think the police should just stand there passively while their vehicles and surrounding buildings are violently damaged, and even their horses are hurt? (Incidentally, I do agree that there is no place for the horses in this sort of situation.)

And what would happen then? Because the police stood there and effectively indicated they didn't care what happened, are you suggesting these violent characters would just melt away?

Like others, I would hate to see the day when the population may not protest about anything at all. But there has to be a level at which behaviour is simply unacceptable and the people concerned are arrested and punished.
However, I gather in this case, most of these cowards in their face masks quickly removed the masks and just melted into the crowd. Really courageous behaviour, I'm sure.

Julia

 

[chops_a_must]

Yes, well, one can hardly describe the content of the last post contributed by 123Enen as having peaceful intentions!

Re the suggestion of police remaining passive: So you think the police should just stand there passively while their vehicles and surrounding buildings are violently damaged, and even their horses are hurt? (Incidentally, I do agree that there is no place for the horses in this sort of situation.)

And what would happen then? Because the police stood there and effectively indicated they didn't care what happened, are you suggesting these violent characters would just melt away?

I think your argument is based on a number of false premises.

1) All protesters are out to cause damage.
2) That when horses are being hurt, it is never in self defence.

A four year old in Perth this weekend was nearly killed by a pig horse. They are not peaceful. They are treated like sh*t, and are constantly angry.

The police had barricades. There is no way their vehicle should have been able to be attacked.

Once a crowd has got violent, it is too late. I mean passive, in terms of being there, but just observing. The problem is, they don't do that.

At the protests that I have been to, when the police do nothing, everyone DOES melt away. People go, wanting to react against the police. When they do nothing, everyone gets bored, there is nothing to keep anything going. I've had much experience and this seems to be what happens.

And to that other meathead that posted that thing, civil disobedience could include disobeying the protest area they were assigned in woop woop.

 

[123enen]

This may be hyper cynical:

But why would these "protesters" completely alienate the great bulk of reasonable people from their "message"?

I suspect a False Flag operation when I see crap like this.

I believe we are being manipulated folks.

Wayne,
The false flag defence does get argued by the "passive" protestors.
They will tell you that the Govt, authorities(police) and especially the multi national corporations are behind this violence. They will argue that it is all deliberate and a big set up to diminish the genuine protest message.


What is the " real" message as they see it.
That Govt's and greedy muti nationals are exploiting the poor and destroying all of our natural environment. Capitalism makes profit at the expense of the poor of this world. Join with other corrupt govt's to establish policy to repress the population and force the population to bow to their will.

How do they do this.
They suggest that police van was deliberately positioned and left unnatended so it could be easily attacked. This would make great media coverage , gain a lot of attention and would take attention away from the point the protestors are trying to make.
They argue that many of the barriers were not filled with water. A deliberate action by the police under govt. instruction. Why? So the barriers can be easily lifted by a handful of protestors = great media and discussion directed towards violence, not towards the " real protestor message"

They argue that the multi nationals ( ANZ. McDonalds, Nike etc) pay these thugs to attend the protestors and behave this way. Why = to create diversion away from the " real " message.

The whole idea of this particular false flag concept is that by use of protestor violence and media coverage tha public will not get a chance to hear the real message.

 

[123enen]

And to that other meathead that posted that thing, civil disobedience could include disobeying the protest area they were assigned in woop woop.

Hello Chops a must.

I am that other meathead to which you refer.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean above but it doesn't sound like the sort of thing you need to cover your face for.
Anyway we all saw the civil disobedience they perpetrated.

 

[chops_a_must]

How do they do this.
They suggest that police van was deliberately positioned and left unnatended so it could be easily attacked. This would make great media coverage , gain a lot of attention and would take attention away from the point the protestors are trying to make.

They argue that the multi nationals ( ANZ. McDonalds, Nike etc) pay these thugs to attend the protestors and behave this way. Why = to create diversion away from the " real " message.

I'd say they DID deliberately leave that van there.

I have a number of friends attending the protests in Melbourne. They had no idea what they were doing or where these "vandals" even were.

And really, who cares if Nike and Maccas gets attacked? I don't. But I don't think they mind, because people then become sympathetic to the brand.

 

[doctorj]

Just a friendly reminder to all to keep this thread civil.

Thanks

 

[123enen]

And really, who cares if Nike and Maccas gets attacked? I don't.

Nike ,Maccas and ANZ in this example are corporations.
Those actually being attacked are the poor schoolkids that have a part time job selling shoes or the bank clerk waiting to go home to her kids.

You know very well that 4 or 5 thugs will walk into the shop and push loose furniture to the ground, yell and scream as they do it and generally intimidate. The "real people " don't deserve it.

 

[anon]

The right to protest, PEACEFUL protest, is fundamental. The moment that goes then we know we're already well down the track of living in a dictatorship.

The lack of protest marches etc in recent times is starting to worry me a bit. Here in Hobart at least, we only seem to get a march of some sort every few months now and the big protests, the kind that get 5 - 15% of the entire population in the march, just don't seem to be happening at all these days.

Nothing to protest about? Nobody is really concerned anymore? Or are people frightened of the consequences? I strongly suspect it's the latter

Feel you have freedom in Australia? Try this. Get a film camera and take the following pictures on the SAME film (all within 250km of Melbourne):

1. Rialto Towers building (city)
2. Southbank area (city)
3. Flinders St station at the platforms (city)
4. Altona oil refinery (inner suburban)
5. Newport power station (inner suburban)
7. Assorted views of the city skyline
8. Loy Yang power station (Traralgon)

Now, take this film in to be developed and be sure to leave your name and contact details. Feel safe? Or feel you might be locked up for taking the exact same photos I took (for perfectly legitimate reasons) without the slightest concern in 1995.

I contend that we are LOSING the "war on terror" since it is achieving exactly what terrorists aim to achieve - a loss of freedom. Bit by bit, it gets chipped away. Lack of protests, especially the more radical ones, these days is just another symptom IMO.

Smurf, indeed you are right. Islamist terrorists do want us to lose our freedom and have it replaced it by their sharia law. They also want us to become muslim, as Abu Bakhar Bashir expressed it - "You will become muslim, or you will die. That is your destiny". We have no choice but to sacrifice a little of our freedom in order not to lose it altogether.

You took those photos in 1995 - six years before 9/11. Its a different world now, with terrorists being present in all western countries, including our own, their mission being to kill indiscriminantly - as happened in Madrid, London, Bali, and India recently. Having pictures of potential targets would be very useful in preparing terrorist attacks. Counter terrorism authorities should be and would be very interested in any such activities.

There have been some protest marches recently, such as those organised by unions against IR laws, and those organised by rural communities north of Brisbane opposing building of water storage dams in their areas. They went off peacefully without violence or property damage as happened in Melbourne. But really, Melbourne protest was pussy-cat stuff compared to protests in France last year, or those in East Timor, Solomon Islands and Tonga.

anon

 

[chops_a_must]

Nike ,Maccas and ANZ in this example are corporations.
Those actually being attacked are the poor schoolkids that have a part time job selling shoes or the bank clerk waiting to go home to her kids.

You know very well that 4 or 5 thugs will walk into the shop and push loose furniture to the ground, yell and scream as they do it and generally intimidate. The "real people " don't deserve it.

We all have ethical choices to make. ANZ has supposedly been doing highly questionable things in Iraq. And if the workers aren't aware of the impact that the companies they work for have in the world, then they should be made aware. Especially at the moment, where there is a shortage of workers, you can vote with your feet when it comes to work choices. But if you don't care, in my eyes, you are fair game, at the very least to social pressure.

To use a neo-con American term, unfortunately, these workers are just collateral damage. And I'm sure they are getting paid more than a dollar a day, so they have no right to complain.