Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Managed fund co-operation group

When I watch videos about the guy who complained to the S.E.C. (U.S. equiv. to ASIC), I'm able to empathize with him. He knew he was right but nobody would listen.

So, it's not always the case that the majority are right, and it may be that the majority are not right in the majority of cases.

When I look at the submissions made to the Senate Finance Inquiry, I'm struck by the fact that only four submissions were made on behalf of the FMF (3 of them mine) and about the same number for the MFS fund.

Storm members made the bulk of the submissions - it's clear that many couldn't use computers because they submitted hand-written letters, some of the writing indicated that the authors were aged - but they made submissions, and as a consequence the Inquiry is probably more widely known as the 'Storm Inquiry'.

In each of the MFS and FMF there are about 10,000 investors - that's 20,000 entities, yet no more than 8 submissions. Contrast that with Storm and it's not difficult to understand why they've taken the front seat at the inquiry.

I'm guessing the subject of 'managed funds' at the Inquiry will fail to gain too much traction at all.

So, if it's obscurity that you want, then you've got it.

If you want to do something for your own benefit, then you have to participate in anything that will get our plight in front of those who matter.

Right now, we simply don't matter - we cannot allow the status quo to continue.

Oh! you say, look at ASIC suing here and there - and they are - but I believe this splurge of activity by ASIC is to dress up their tarnished reputation, in a way not unlike the facade of a building on a movie set.

Yes, it's a hopeful sign and the words are good - but, it can't help us where we are.

The choice is simple, remain in obscurity or put our plight in the limelight.
 
Hi Simgrund,

I'm starting to get what you mean - you mean a fund into which retired persons would be able to invest with security - I'd guess at this time that's called a bank or a building society.....................................

Thank you for your support of the letter to the finance minister.

http://www.moneymagik.com/letter.pdf
It is very much appreciated.

Yes Mellifuos, this nails all.

While building societies are really co-operative banks, a semi-investment tier can be built above it with the bullet - proofed regulatory regimes in place.
The good doctorj's comments should not be a deterrant to us.
It is now clear that ASIC is off the fence and firmly in the galloping paddock.
Let's keep astride with all our contributions.
Keep up the good work.
Regards, simgrund
 
Yes Mellifuos, this nails all.

While building societies are really co-operative banks, a semi-investment tier can be built above it with the bullet - proofed regulatory regimes in place.
The good doctorj's comments should not be a deterrant to us.
It is now clear that ASIC is off the fence and firmly in the galloping paddock.
Let's keep astride with all our contributions.
Keep up the good work.
Regards, simgrund

Thanks very much Simgrund. I just noticed a posting on the MFS forum in relation to this article:-

http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/09/05/15894_gold-coast-business.html

"... Ms Hutson has said a wind-up would deliver only 14c in the dollar for investors who poured $770 million into the fund.

She said Korda Mentha had estimated it would be worth 45c in the dollar as a going concern. ..."

To me, unless representations (statements investors rely on) as to the future are backed with evidence and are qualified, then how can investors make informed decisions.

This issue is dealt with on page 3/4 of the letter/submission.
 
Thanks Simgrund.
I am sorry, my personal re-action to the draft ( I didn't realise it was only a draft) seems to have caused a big response.

I had no intention of that happening. Please don't read too much into what I said...it wasn't the facts; I am not armed with the facts the way many of you are. It was merely my personal EXPERIENCE when I read it.

Please don't get me wrong...I appreciate enormously the work that you guys and women have been putting in. I only wish that I was cluey enough, young enough, and had enough time to be of some use.
 
do you think the following information is enough to make an informed decision on?

Explanatory Memorandum of Wellington's proposal for the MFS PIF
http://www.newpif.com.au/EGM08/Explanatory%20Memorandum.pdf

Page 22 -
Asset backed security as at 31 Dec 2007 $307m
carry value 30 May 2008 $267.55m
est. sale value 30 May 2008 $96.66m


Page 25 -
Asset Backed Securities
Sydney based company $20,000,000
Sydney based securities $14,700,000
Living and Leisure Group $493,000
Living and Leisure Australia Trust loan $27,000,000
Diversified Trust $905
South East Queensland based security $19,265,753
Diversified Trust $10,084,932
South East Queensland based securities $5,110,638
est. sale value 30 May 2008 $96,655,228

Page 22 -
Units in Managed Investment Scheme as at 31 Dec 2007 $161m
carry value 30 May 2008 $93.3m
est. sale value 30 May 2008 $5.6m

Page 25 -
Units in Managed Investment Scheme
Unlisted property trust $3,598,019
Unlisted property trust $2,001,049
est. sale value 30 May 2008 $5,599,068

Page 22 -
Fixed interest securities as at 31 Dec 2007 $117.4m
Carry value 30 May 2008 $16.9m
est. sale value 30 May 2008 $15.5m

Page 25 -
Fixed Interest Securities
Unlisted fixed interest security $9,512,902
ASX listed debt $2,360,000
ASX listed fixed security $3,650,000
est. sale value 30 May 2008$15,522,902
 
How about this statement on page 30 of the following:-

http://www.newpif.com.au/EGM08/Explanatory%20Memorandum.pdf


"...
Capitalisation of loan interest

Most loans made by the Fund involve capitalisation of interest, which is where the interest is not paid by the borrower during the period of the loan but is added to the loan over the term of the loan.

This is typical for construction loans where interest is capitalised during the construction and then paid when the project is complete. ..."

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Ms. Hutson is mis-describing 'accruals accounting' and not describing capitalisation.

I thought 'capitalisation' meant that in the event the loan (including interest) was not paid in one period then the loan would be considered to be in default and then interest would be applied to the sum of capital and the unpaid interest - a default interest rate normally applies in such circumstances.

City Pacific done great deals like that - a loan over two years .. nothing was paid in the first year, and at the end another loan was taken out to pay the first loan out - then it looked like the loan book was 'rolling over' - in reality it was only the investors who were 'rolling over'.

Please help me understand...
 
Please help me understand...
It's common lending practice - you want to match the repayments with the underlying cash flow of the business you're funding. In the case of construction, you draw down the loan incrementally over the period of construction, but don't typically realise any cash flow until you sell it following completion.

Which brings me back to the point I made yesterday - you ought to focus your letter on getting your money back and have someone with some background in the subject matter review it. If you attempt to fight too many battles you don't have a hope of winning, you risk losing credibility and increase the (already very high) probability of being ignored completely.
 
It's common lending practice - you want to match the repayments with the underlying cash flow of the business you're funding. In the case of construction, you draw down the loan incrementally over the period of construction, but don't typically realise any cash flow until you sell it following completion.

Which brings me back to the point I made yesterday - you ought to focus your letter on getting your money back and have someone with some background in the subject matter review it. If you attempt to fight too many battles you don't have a hope of winning, you risk losing credibility and increase the (already very high) probability of being ignored completely.

yes, we know that .. i know about accruals accounting .. and I know that no payments are made until the end of a 'development' - I understand that.

The issues relate to that letter.

disclosure of the details is an issue in the letter -

representations is an issue in the letter.

just how investors are supposed to make decisions with a lack of information is in the letter.

It's all in the bloody letter.

you win.. i give up

goodbye
 
ASIC nets fewer fish
Friday, 06 November 2009 | The Australian Financial Review | Patrick Durkin

"......The Australian Securities and Investments Commission secured fewer convictions and jail sentences last financial year, a time when $771 billion was wiped from the stockmarket and investors lost $23 billion in corporate collapses....."

well, hope they (and us ! ! ) have a better year this financial year.! !
 
[page 55 Grande Pacific limited holds 15.09% 17,690,815shares

mellifuous - I believe the Grande Pacific referred to in that report is a privately owned singapore based investment company - i.e. a completely different company to the Australian one referred to in the rest of your post.
 
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...funds-management/story-e6frgad6-1225794167214

Give investors powers to decide: funds management Phillip Gray From: The Australian November 04, 2009 12:00AM

"....At present there is no requirement for any -- let alone full -- disclosure of Australian managed funds' underlying holdings (the stocks, bonds and other securities the fund owns). Searching across different fund managers' websites reveals a mishmash of approaches. Some fund managers provide monthly updates of their 10 biggest positions only, some quarterly or six-monthly and some none at all.

Periodic disclosure of full portfolio holdings would have several benefits. First, it would enable investors, financial advisers and other market participants to evaluate whether a fund is staying "true to label" in terms of market capitalisation and investment style characteristics.

Second, it would provide greater opportunity for detection of undesirable behaviours such as "window-dressing" (the practice of turning over a fund's portfolio holdings close to a reporting period, selling poorly performing companies and buying strongly performing ones to make the fund's performance look better)......"


Now wouldn't that be a step in the right direction....
 
The letter was sent to Lindsay Tanner's Office yesterday.
Thank you to all who contributed.
Thanks k.smith and mellifuous, IMO it is only a matter of time before we will see intervention and regulation regarding the overseeing of such funds as in the previous OCV PIF and the FMF. Investors have been trying to draw recognition to the fact that investors were enticed to invest in these funds with the glowing recommendations from supposedly recognised fund rating experts, ie lonsec, morningstar etc, not to mention advisers and upbeat media reports and from the funds themselves.

If the problems of lack of corporate regulation is not adressed, these funds and this type of investing will become redundant.

I am in contact with hundreds of people who reiterate they will NEVER INVEST in products such as these again and why would you take the risk? Seamisty
 
http://www.smh.com.au/business/shareholder-activism--an-insiders-perspective-20091111-i9qv.html
".....When we requested the company’s register to mail our fellow RHG shareholders, we were provided with the names and addresses in a PDF file. Apart from being denied email addresses (a more cost-effective way for shareholders to communicate with each other), the format of the registry was frustrating, with our mailhouse unable to process the names in the PDF format.

That churlish move slowed us down for a few hours while we scoured the internet for the requisite software to ‘‘unscramble’’ the format of the registry and allow us to present it to the mailhouse in a more user-friendly spreadsheet format.

It might seem reasonable to ask why share registries aren’t making things easier. But when you consider the incentives involved, the mystery dissolves. Just think who appoints the registry to the job and signs off on their invoices...."



I believe investors in both City Pacific and MFS can identify with problems obtaining the "disk"...( or in the above report, the share registry..)
It is about time that this issue is addressed. When unitholders (or shareholders) are asked to make decisions regarding their investments, isn't it just commonsense to form your decisions on information on all the angles..?? Why would you want to make decisions when you NOW KNOW that information presented to you is often only part of the story ?
 
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/bus...g-even-as-regulators-hover-20091113-ient.html
Why financial planners are smiling even as regulators hoverNovember 13, 2009

"..........But disclosure and fiduciary duty are totally different concepts, in practice and in law, and they really are just hijacking the language to make it sound all above board......."

"........So instead of a financial adviser being paid a 5 per cent trailing commission forever for sticking your money into a particular fund, he or she now will be paid a 5 per cent commission on the whole of your investment regardless of whichever product they direct it towards.

It is slightly better than a commission, because it eliminates the bribery angle, but it is an ongoing fee nonetheless, a fee for doing no work and providing no advice........"

"......advisers will have the option of calling themselves salesmen - which is precisely what they are. Those who opt to maintain the title of financial adviser will be subject to a great deal more rigour and possibly much less in the way of fee income.

Want some free financial advice? Offer to pay your financial adviser up front, say 5 per cent of the total you want to invest. Otherwise you will pay 5 per cent every year for the next 10 years or more. You do the maths. Craig Dunn already has......."


Source: The Sydney Morning Herald

seems to me that when the regulators close one door, there are numerous new doors opening, they will be presented to us all squeaky clean and part of the great post GFC "clean up" in the industry, but it will be just more of the same.
Investors will feel safe, because the "language" of these products sounds so "above board"...so, the doors will just revolve again...

http://www.smh.com.au/business/phoenix-directors-are-feeding-off-failure-20091113-ietw.html
Phoenix directors are feeding off failureADELE FERGUSON
November 14, 2009

"........CORPORATE Australia is littered with company directors who have managed to survive multiple company failures, a trend that suggests illegal ''phoenix'' companies are on the rise......."

"......Even more alarming, of the 10,264 companies that went belly up in the year to June 30, a staggering 43 per cent involved companies with directors of previously wound-up companies....."

".....At its core, phoenix activity raises questions about the role of insolvency practitioners, the regulator, the issue of assetless liquidations, the priority regulators give to pursuing serial offenders, how much support they get from the government, and how phoenix activity is exploited by ''legitimate'' companies to gain an edge. By planning not to pay their bills once work is complete, phoenix companies have a huge commercial advantage over their competitors......"


it is great to read these articles...at least there are some journalists out there who are bringing some of these issues to the attention of the public.
 
So where the hell are ya?

What!!! No response to the fact that our units are now valued at 48 cents!

Well...tell you what, I wouldn't mind that 48 cents!
 
http://blogs.nzherald.co.nz/blog/in...ure-complaint/?c_id=1502776&objectid=10610046

".....The 'frozen funds' case also highlighted a glaring anomaly in the financial disputes resolution system .................

Thankfully, that is about to change. All financial service firms and advisers will from (sometime) next year will have to belong to an external disputes resolution body. And the complaints specialists are starting to appear..........."
:):)

A Disputes Resolution Body...
A central point of contact whereby investors could have a legal representation .....
Instead of cyberspace....
What a sensible idea.....
 
Thankfully, that is about to change. All financial service firms and advisers will from (sometime) next year will have to belong to an external disputes resolution body. And the complaints specialists are starting to appear..........."
:):)

A Disputes Resolution Body...
A central point of contact whereby investors could have a legal representation .....
Instead of cyberspace....
What a sensible idea.....
As far as I know, all holders of an Australian Financial Services License are already required to hold a current membership to an approved external dispute resolution body. The most common in Australia is FICS (www.fics.asn.au), but this does vary, so check your PDS or similar. Those comments may be in reference to NZ law.
 
As far as I know, all holders of an Australian Financial Services License are already required to hold a current membership to an approved external dispute resolution body. The most common in Australia is FICS (www.fics.asn.au), but this does vary, so check your PDS or similar. Those comments may be in reference to NZ law.

This is an extract and it appears that PIF in its present form without an eligible PDF would not have a look in.

[[[ How to Lodge a Dispute: Investments, Life Insurance & Superannuation

The following processes apply to disputes about Investments, Life Insurance & Superannuation. This information is provided as a guide. If you have any questions, please call the Financial Ombudsman Service on 1300 78 08 08.

PLEASE NOTE:
The Financial Ombudsman Service does not deal with disputes regarding decisions by trustees of regulated superannuation funds. This includes disputes relating to payments of superannuation benefits by fund trustees, and superannuation fund performance. If your dispute is in relation to a regulated superannuation fund, the appropriate body for you to contact is the Superannuation Complaints Tribunal. ]]]
 
Hi Simgrund,

I just wanted to let you know that I sent the letter to Mr. Tanner's office.

His office has since advised me that the letter has been redirected sent to the Minister for Financial Services, Superannuation and Corporate Law, Mr. Chris Bowen M.P.

A copy of the completed letter is at http://www.moneymagik.com/latest.pdf

I'm aware there are errors and that it doesn't meet the high standards of those amongst us who are skilled to remedy such errors, but in the end it was just a case of something being better than nothing.

I took your advice and put the suggested amendments at the back for document.

Thanks for your help.

Allan.
 
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