Labor's carbon tax lie

Smurf1976 · 1 July 2012

Eager said:
One tiny point of order (two actually) - firstly, the Morwell plant has a total capacity of just 170MW. It is hardly a biggie. I'm just hoping that the uninformed don't think that it running was majorly responible for Loy Yang running at reduced output. (BTW this plant will be closed within 2 years. it will still raise steam for briquette production but the turbines will be turned off).

Secondly, regarding the significant increase in black coal powered plant output, was this due to increased availability because of units returning from maintenance etc?

Morwell - my comments about the long term are referring to the mine itself rather than Morwell or Hazelwood power stations which use the coal.

My point about Hazelwood itself it that it is widely known as a "polluting" power station and has frequently been a target of protests etc but its' output seems unaffected by the carbon tax thus far (a unit being taken offline at that plant isn't exactly unusual!). I suspect that a lot of carbon tax supporters would have expected Hazelwood to be hit harder than anything else, possibly to the point of actually taking units offline completely at least outside the Summer period, but thus far that does not seem to be the case. Interesting in a political sense.

Black coal plant - it's mostly just higher outputs from units in NSW that were also online 24 hours earlier. It would seem to be a direct consequence of other generators pricing capacity above the market, thus shifting load to lower priced rivals which just happens to include these plants in NSW.

Smurf1976 · 1 July 2012

sptrawler said:
I don't know where you are coming from with this Eager, however if Yallourn is coal fired which I am pretty sure it is. The cost to generate will go up due to the carbon tax, it still may be cheaper to run than other stations but the net cost is higher.

It's a 4 unit coal-fired plant, capacity 1480 MW located in Victoria. Associated with the plant is the adjacent brown coal mine.

The mine was flooded a few weeks ago and production has been restricted, due to lack of coal (or more specifically, due to problems transporting coal to the power station), to one unit running at 200MW in recent times. That in itself has a significant impact on the market such that it wouldn't be valid to compare prices now versus a month ago or the same time last year etc.

For the non-technical people, this is a major plant which supplies about 20% of Victoria's electricity on average.

Eager · 1 July 2012

Smurf1976 said:
Black coal plant - it's mostly just higher outputs from units in NSW that were also online 24 hours earlier. It would seem to be a direct consequence of other generators pricing capacity above the market, thus shifting load to lower priced rivals which just happens to include these plants in NSW.

Fair enough.

As an aside, TruEnergy (the owners of Yallourn) have recently made a formal application to construct a 1,000 MW combined cycle gas turbine power station adjacent to its existing coal fired power station.

sptrawler · 1 July 2012

Smurf1976 said:
It's a 4 unit coal-fired plant, capacity 1480 MW located in Victoria. Associated with the plant is the adjacent brown coal mine.

The mine was flooded a few weeks ago and production has been restricted, due to lack of coal (or more specifically, due to problems transporting coal to the power station), to one unit running at 200MW in recent times. That in itself has a significant impact on the market such that it wouldn't be valid to compare prices now versus a month ago or the same time last year etc.

For the non-technical people, this is a major plant which supplies about 20% of Victoria's electricity on average.

Thanks for the info, smurf, it got me off my bum and I thought I would check out the other coal fired producers in Victoria.
OMG if they decide to get pedantic about when they are prepared to produce on a commercial basis, taking into account put on and take off costs, it could get very messy. Hopefully the government has a close working relationship with the generators.
There seems to be a lot of coal generation overhang in Victoria, if you take Loy Yang and Hazelwood into consideration as well as Yallourn.
One would expect there will be a honeymoon period untill the first tax bill comes in, then the response will be more reflective of the impact. Hopefully it isn't as bad as most of us expect.

DB008 · 1 July 2012

ABC Price increase

http://www.abc.net.au/news/specials/climate-change/food-prices/

dutchie · 2 July 2012

The Carbon Tax works!

Lots of reporting of colder temperatures around Australia. Yippeee

sails · 2 July 2012

dutchie said:
The Carbon Tax works!

Lots of reporting of colder temperatures around Australia. Yippeee

LOL Dutchie - weather just doing what it's always done. Seems co2 makes no difference.

Just an excuse to redistribute wealth. Money and control is the real name of the game, imo.

dutchie · 2 July 2012

sails said:
LOL Dutchie - weather just doing what it's always done. Seems co2 makes no difference.

Just an excuse to redistribute wealth. Money and control is the real name of the game, imo.

What! You want more proof?
Basket of food bought at Woolies on Saturday costs same on Sunday - no price rises (see Goose for dockets) due to tax.
Again , yippeee!

sails · 2 July 2012

DB008 said:
ABC Price increase

http://www.abc.net.au/news/specials/climate-change/food-prices/

Now that would be on top of prices that have already risen. And it's possible we will see more imports from countries that have no carbon tax.

drsmith · 2 July 2012

Labor could shower the electorate in gold and convince us on climate change but voters still won't forgive them for the lie.

Today's Nielsen poll says support for the carbon tax has fallen four percentage points in the last month to stand at 33 per cent, its lowest level since the tax was announced 15 months ago.

Sixty-two per cent of those questioned said they opposed the tax.

Labor's primary vote has risen two points to 28 per cent, while the Coalition remained steady on 48 per cent.

On a two-party-preferred basis, the Coalition leads Labor 58 per cent to 42 per cent, representing an eight-point swing since the last election.

The poll has a maximum margin of error of 2.8 per cent.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-02/politicians-begin-cross-country-carbon-tax-campaign/4103704

sptrawler · 2 July 2012

I tend to think that the polls are now reflecting the general dislike of the government and it really doesn't matter what the poll is about.
The electorate is using any method available to show their dislike and it is going to get worse.
What will Gillard say when the polls in two months don't show an improvement?
How will she sell the tax then? Or will she be forced to accept that the electorate is angry and accept she must call an election.
The point has to be reached, where even with her thick skin, she has to acknowledge the public outcry.

drsmith · 2 July 2012

sptrawler said:
What will Gillard say when the polls in two months don't show an improvement?
How will she sell the tax then? Or will she be forced to accept that the electorate is angry and accept she must call an election.

If the polls don't inprove (likely), she won't be concerned about the electrate, not that she ever has been. She'll have mauh greater concerns about what's going on behind her back, again.

In short, if the polls don't improve, she'll be replaced as PM before the end of the year.

tech/a · 2 July 2012

Saw Combet on Good morning Aust.

Had to laugh he was making a big deal how the Govt had thought long and hard about exporters
who were given far less carbon taxes as low as $1.28/tonne not $28/tonne.----keeps jobs you know.

So all those who dont export yet have to compete with imports which dont have our taxes applied
have to compete while payinmg $28/tonne carbon tax----duurr what about these jobs??

Another well thought out policy!

dutchie · 2 July 2012

sptrawler said:
The point has to be reached, where even with her thick skin, she has to acknowledge the public outcry.

Afraid not. It is not in her DNA.

noco · 2 July 2012

dutchie said:
Afraid not. It is not in her DNA.

Gillard is not listening to the public. She is either deaf or dumb or maybe both.

Calliope · 2 July 2012

Australians are increasingly reluctant to pay for something they do not see as a problem.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ws-have-moved-on/story-e6frgd0x-1226413834287

Miss Hale · 2 July 2012

Calliope said:
Australians are increasingly reluctant to pay for something they do not see as a problem.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...ws-have-moved-on/story-e6frgd0x-1226413834287

And this is the crux of the matter. We are having to suffer the consequences of a new tax for what? Nothing!!! The only reason you have a new tax is if it is part of tax reform (where others are removed) or you need to fund something (like the flood levy). If Gillard thinks she can just impose one and say it's to save the environment and not be able to demonstrate how it will save the envronment she is, once again, holding the electorate in contempt and playing us for fools. Just to hear her say yesterday "the sky hasn't fallen in" made my blood boil Tuly pathetic, your only defence of a tax is to say that they sky hasn't fallen in? No one was saying the sky would fall in of course but but many people are saying the tax is unecessary, ineffectual, and will impact the economy. Please respond to those arguments Gillard and while you are at it tell us how many degrees the world temperature will drop by because of this tax!

noco · 2 July 2012

Miss Hale said:
And this is the crux of the matter. We are having to suffer the consequences of a new tax for what? Nothing!!! The only reason you have a new tax is if it is part of tax reform (where others are removed) or you need to fund something (like the flood levy). If Gillard thinks she can just impose one and say it's to save the environment and not be able to demonstrate how it will save the envronment she is, once again, holding the electorate in contempt and playing us for fools. Just to hear her say yesterday "the sky hasn't fallen in" made my blood boil Tuly pathetic, your only defence of a tax is to say that they sky hasn't fallen in? No one was saying the sky would fall in of course but but many people are saying the tax is unecessary, ineffectual, and will impact the economy. Please respond to those arguments Gillard and while you are at it tell us how many degrees the world temperature will drop by because of this tax!

1/4000 of a degree and she will not reduce carbon emmissions by 5% in year 2020 in fact it will increase.

All pain and no gain.

At least when the GST came in everyone knew what it would cost. This carbon dioxide tax can and will be passed on to every one and we will not know whether it is correct or falsely added by unscrupulous business. I laughed my head off this morning when I heard David Bradbury state if a butcher increases his prices due to the CARBON TAX he could be fined up to $1,100,000. What a joke!!!!!!!!!

At least when the GST was intrduced it was genuine reform whereby the hidden sales tax was removed.

Knobby22 · 2 July 2012

Yes, well she doesn't believe in it either.
She is only pushing it because it was in the deal with the Greens to give her power this term.
Pretty hard to argue convincingly about something you don't believe in either.

Her hope is that all the fuss will go away once we have got used to it, like the GST.
I don't think it will though.
Abbot knows that he is on a winner here.

Julia · 2 July 2012

Miss Hale said:
And this is the crux of the matter. We are having to suffer the consequences of a new tax for what? Nothing!!! The only reason you have a new tax is if it is part of tax reform (where others are removed) or you need to fund something (like the flood levy). If Gillard thinks she can just impose one and say it's to save the environment and not be able to demonstrate how it will save the envronment she is, once again, holding the electorate in contempt and playing us for fools. Just to hear her say yesterday "the sky hasn't fallen in" made my blood boil Tuly pathetic, your only defence of a tax is to say that they sky hasn't fallen in? No one was saying the sky would fall in of course but but many people are saying the tax is unecessary, ineffectual, and will impact the economy. Please respond to those arguments Gillard and while you are at it tell us how many degrees the world temperature will drop by because of this tax!

+1. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one with the boiling blood. I've never, ever felt so utterly disgusted and angry with any government.

noco said:
At least when the GST came in everyone knew what it would cost. This carbon dioxide tax can and will be passed on to every one and we will not know whether it is correct or falsely added by unscrupulous business. I laughed my head off this morning when I heard David Bradbury state if a butcher increases his prices due to the CARBON TAX he could be fined up to $1,100,000. What a joke!!!!!!!!!

For that matter, wouldn't the butcher be quite entitled to raise his prices? He's going to be paying more in electricity etc and probably also in his costs of meat from wholesalers. I understand abattoirs will be paying the carbon tax.

Knobby22 said:
Yes, well she doesn't believe in it either.
She is only pushing it because it was in the deal with the Greens to give her power this term.
Pretty hard to argue convincingly about something you don't believe in either.

Her hope is that all the fuss will go away once we have got used to it, like the GST.

Agree that that's her hope and also don't think it will be fulfilled. The electorate is much too angry and beyond being mollified.

Abbot knows that he is on a winner here.

Sure, but he's probably also going to have to lift his rhetoric into explaining how he will deal with the altered tax thresholds, additional pension and family payments etc, when he removes the carbon tax.
Interviewed by Fran Kelly this morning he was less than impressive.
(She had previously had Combet on for about 20 minutes endorsing his remarks about what a wonderful thing the carbon tax is and how people really have to realise this, whilst Tony Abbott got the tough questions and about four minutes. Radio National don't even make a pretence at objectivity on this topic.)

Labor's carbon tax lie

Smurf1976

Smurf1976

Eager

sptrawler

DB008

dutchie

sails

dutchie

sails

drsmith

sptrawler

drsmith

tech/a

No Ordinary Duck

dutchie

noco

Calliope

Miss Hale

noco

Knobby22

Mmmmmm 2nd breakfast

Julia

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