Labor's carbon tax lie

Smurf1976 · 12 August 2012

drsmith said:
Was it this ?

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2012/s3564655.htm

The political problem for Abbott is that the "competitive" electricity market is an ideology that sits somewhat closer in principle to the Liberals than to Labor or the Greens (though all 3 have to some extent supported it). And it's the adherence to that view of how it "should" work which has driven much of the price increase, rather than the carbon (or any other) tax.

Perhaps most notable of all is that energy is now a major national issue. We're talking about the outcome of the next federal election here, not a local issue about land use, who gets to press the big button at the opening ceremony or even a state election. Such is the extent of the troubles in the industry that the price of power is now attracting more attention than interest rates or petrol prices.

Just wait until there's a major failure and the lights really do go out. THEN things will get really interesting, really quickly. There's an awful lot of shortcuts and other profit-driven things being done so it's only a matter of time....

DB008 · 12 August 2012

Great post Smurf (Post #2178)

IFocus · 12 August 2012

drsmith said:
Julia,

are you referring to this,

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...rphy-tony-abbott/story-fn59niix-1226446593729

The part in bold was poorly considered, but it does not attribute all price rises to the carbon tax. I think he's just trying to keep the focus on the carbon tax.

Nice spin, fact is Abbott's talking a flat out lie.

drsmith · 12 August 2012

Smurf1976 said:
The political problem for Abbott is that the "competitive" electricity market is an ideology that sits somewhat closer in principle to the Liberals than to Labor or the Greens (though all 3 have to some extent supported it). And it's the adherence to that view of how it "should" work which has driven much of the price increase, rather than the carbon (or any other) tax.

With regard to the broader issue of privatising essential services, it will be interesting to see how that is viewed in say, the next 20 or 30 years.

I'm not in a position to say specifically where the line should be drawn although in a broad sence, I broadly feel that telecommunications, airlines and banking should lean more towards private hands whereas electricity, health, transport, water/sewage and defence should largely be in government hands.

A key consideration over any government privatisation is that the long term benefit should outweight the short term benefit of realisng the asset for cash.

drsmith · 12 August 2012

IFocus said:
Nice spin, fact is Abbott's talking a flat out lie.

More homework for you IF.

Please advise where TA has attributed all the electricity price rises to the carbon tax as per the comment below and watch the following video until the words coming out of their mouths change.

Julia said:
No. I saw him say it on television. No question. No equivocation. It would have been ABC TV about two or three days ago, at night, probably the late news.
He looked right at the camera and said (paraphrasing) "Despite Ms Gillard's attempt to blame the States for electricity price rises, all the price rises are 100% due to the carbon tax."

Julia · 12 August 2012

drsmith said:
I'm not satisfied until I see proof.

Oh heavens! Why do you think Malcolm Turnbull said this?

His comments run counter to the view of Liberal leader Tony Abbott, who says price rises are wholly down to the carbon tax, accusing Julia Gillard of fabrication in blaming the states.

Look, I want the government to change. I would be much happier with a Liberal government.
I want to believe Tony Abbott is the answer to all the nation's problems and that he will be a terrific Prime Minister.

However, like much of the electorate, I believe he is far from ideal.
Further, I am objective enough to be critical when he says something untruthful and simply stupid.

moXJO · 12 August 2012

Julia said:
Look, I want the government to change. I would be much happier with a Liberal government.
I want to believe Tony Abbott is the answer to all the nation's problems and that he will be a terrific Prime Minister.

However, like much of the electorate, I believe he is far from ideal.
Further, I am objective enough to be critical when he says something untruthful and simply stupid.

Agree
I hate the current labor crop and their inability to run anything without a disaster happening.
But Abbott is railroading himself on every policy to the point that I have trouble taking him seriously. It has got to the point of who will do the least damage.

drsmith · 12 August 2012

Julia,

Was one of the two ABC video clips linked to the last post of the previous page the one you saw ?

sails · 12 August 2012

Interesting PDF put out by the liberal/national party on NSW electricity issues:

Here's an excerpt:

"Over the last sixteen years NSW Labor has stripped $15.3 billion in dividends and tax payments from electricity companies. This is the equivalent of $5,300 per household.

To make matters worse NSW Labor then embarked on its disastrous electricity privatisation. It was not a fire sale. It was a charity giveaway. It is estimated that the sale returned taxpayers less than $1 billion in net present value terms,1 less than 20% of Eric Roozendaal's original claims and billions less than the assets were actually worth.

It was little wonder that Ms Keneally rushed the deal through at a minute to midnight and refused to let the public scrutinise the transaction."

Read more: NSW Liberals & Nationals Plan for an Affordable & Sustainable Energy Industry

Julia · 12 August 2012

drsmith said:
Julia,

Was one of the two ABC video clips linked to the last post of the previous page the one you saw ?

No. It could have been SBS which I occasionally switch to instead of ABC for the late news.
Here's the relevant comment from Malcolm Turnbull on SBS: perhaps amongst that there was a grab of Mr Abbott saying the price rises were due to the carbon tax. I just saw Mr Abbott looking at the camera, saying the power price rises were all due to the carbon tax, and thought "hell that's so silly, when electricity prices have been rising for the last several years, and the carbon tax has only been here less than two months".
That's all. Believe it or not. I don't mind. I would ask you, however, why both Malcolm Turnbull and Ian Macfarlane would make the Liberal Party look less than united by contradicting what Tony Abbott said if he didn't say it.

Bolding in the quote is mine.

Opposition MP Malcolm Turnbull says the "gold-plating" of state electricity infrastructure has contributed more to power rises than the carbon tax.

Opposition frontbencher Malcolm Turnbull says the carbon tax has contributed to electricity price rises, but has backed the government's view that the "gold-plating" of state government electricity infrastructure has contributed much more.

That's contrary to the view of Opposition Leader Tony Abbott, who says price rises are wholly down to the carbon tax, accusing Prime Minister Julia Gillard of fabrication in blaming the states.

Mr Turnbull said Ms Gillard did deserve a gold medal for chutzpah for seeking to minimise the impact of the carbon tax.

But he said states had contributed more to power price rises.

"Over the last five years or so in the east coast capital cities, electricity prices have gone up by about 50 per cent. This is pre the carbon tax. That has been largely a function of the investment in distribution and transmission, in poles and wires," he told Sky News.

Adding to the debate, federal Energy Minister Martin Ferguson said a new energy white paper, expected in October, would encourage all states to privatise their electricity utilities to promote competition and lower prices.

The opposition has persistently blamed electricity price rises on the carbon tax, which came into effect on July 1.

This week Ms Gillard sought to point the debate in another direction, blaming overinvestment in state power infrastructure for the rise in prices.

She gave the states four months to come up with solutions to slow prices rises or face market watchdogs with more powers.

Mr Abbott responded that the problem was not due to regulation, but to the carbon tax.

If you're still unwilling to believe Mr Abbott made the statement, then that's up to you.
I don't have anything more to say about it, except to again note that he has further damaged his credibility by such an exaggeration.

drsmith · 12 August 2012

Julia said:
No. It could have been SBS which I occasionally switch to instead of ABC for the late news.

In that case, I'll give up looking.

Julia said:
If you're still unwilling to believe Mr Abbott made the statement, then that's up to you.

I would like to see it from the horse's mouth, not as an interpretation from a media outlet. To say all, as in 100% would be contrary to even his own statements during the week.

Julia said:
I don't have anything more to say about it, except to again note that he has further damaged his credibility by such an exaggeration.

In the absence of proof otherwise, I'll assume that the media response to this has been in relation to the following comment on the ABC's Lateline as per the link on the last post of the previous page

TONY ABBOTT, OPPOSITION LEADER: This is a Prime Minister who is now trying to blame the states for electricity price rises that are largely caused by her carbon tax.

It's not all, but he has tried to be too cute here, or as George Megalogenis put in on Insiders this morning, he's overcooked it.

I think of greater significance is his comments on so-called gold plating of networks.

TONY ABBOTT, OPPOSITION LEADER: This is a fabrication by the Prime Minister. This is an absolute furphy from the Prime Minister. Why should we believe the Prime Minister now about so called 'gold plating' of power infrastructure when she's never talked about it for the last five years.

There was either a lack of information flowing from state Leberal Premiers offices to TA's office on this or TA himself was again trying to be too cute or he was simply poorly advised on what to say. Either way, it does leave the impression that regardless of all its faults in office, Labor still runs a better political machine than the oppositition. He should have gone more for Gillard and less for the gold plating.

TONY ABBOTT, WHAT HE SHOULD HAVE SAID: This is a fabrication by the Prime Minister. This is an absolute furphy from the Prime Minister. Why should we believe the Prime Minister is now concerned about so called 'gold plating' of power infrastructure when she's never talked about it for the last five years and instead introduced a carbon tax after she said she wouldn't.

My bolds.

bellenuit · 12 August 2012

I am overseas at the moment so have not heard TA's statements. But if he attributed the electricity price increases either fully or predominantly to the carbon tax, wouldn't it be fair to assume he is referring to increases since July 1st? So the veracity of his alleged statement would depend on how much of the post July 1st increases are due to the carbaon tax. I don't have the information available to make that judgement.

That being said, I agree with Julia and have often squirmed at some of the statements he has made. However, I can't bring any to mind at the moment but was struck by them at the time.

drsmith · 12 August 2012

bellenuit said:
I am overseas at the moment so have not heard TA's statements. But if he attributed the electricity price increases either fully or predominantly to the carbon tax, wouldn't it be fair to assume he is referring to increases since July 1st?

I'd say that was the case, but he should have been clearer. I also suspect he was trying to be cute by omission

TONY ABBOTT, OPPOSITION LEADER: This is a Prime Minister who is now trying to blame the states for electricity price rises that are largely caused by her carbon tax.

TONY ABBOTT, WHAT HE SHOULD HAVE SAID: This is a Prime Minister who is now trying to blame the states for electricity price rises to which her carbon tax has contributed.

Smurf1976 · 12 August 2012

drsmith said:
With regard to the broader issue of privatising essential services, it will be interesting to see how that is viewed in say, the next 20 or 30 years.

I'm not in a position to say specifically where the line should be drawn although in a broad sence, I broadly feel that telecommunications, airlines and banking should lean more towards private hands whereas electricity, health, transport, water/sewage and defence should largely be in government hands.

I think that ignorance on the part of politicians has a lot to do with this and many other problems Australia faces today. Only today I hear of calls for more privatisation and competition as though this was somehow going to help.

How many MP's have a background in engineering or any other practical field? There's a lot of decisions being made based on what the text books say without any real understanding of how it applies in the real world. Hence everything from public transport to water to electricity falls in a heap despite a fortune being spent.

sptrawler · 12 August 2012

Smurf1976 said:
Ownership is one thing, structure is another.

It's the structure which is sending prices through the roof at the moment. There just isn't any proper planning, especially between the different sectors of the industry, leading to some crazy spending decisions being made (gold plating) which is the major driver of price rises thus far.

One thing is undeniable - the "reforms" of the 1990's and 00's have NOT reduced prices. Now, does anyone seriously believe that more of the same, from the same people, is the answer? I don't....

I think that ignorance on the part of politicians has a lot to do with this and many other problems Australia faces today. How many MP's have a background in engineering or any other practical field? There's a lot of decisions being made based on what the text books say without any real understanding of how it applies in the real world. Hence everything from public transport to water to electricity falls in a heap despite a fortune being spent.

You are spot on there smurph, the last thing a private generator is concerned about is supplying cheaper power. That goes against the grain of a listed company, the idea is to get the maximum return on capital. Why would they invest money to reduce prices at the expense of profits, doesn't make sense.
Fortunately in W.A the house is being brought into order, but it is a huge problem.
Isolated system with a run down network, old baseload plant and hotch potch private generators that can bid for dispatch.

It is a bit like privatising water, the first thing they would want to do, is stop the current norm, whereby drinkable water has to be available at all taps.
That would be stupid, no we can't have that, grey water to taps and then they could make it compulsory to buy bottled water. Now that would be a money spinner.

MrBurns · 12 August 2012

Gas electricity water and all public transport are ESSENTIAL SERVICES and should never have been sold, they should have been run by the Govt as non profit......... end of story.

sptrawler · 12 August 2012

MrBurns said:
Gas electricity water and all public transport are ESSENTIAL SERVICES and should never have been sold, they should have been run by the Govt as non profit......... end of story.

Well the good thing about that is, even if they make a profit it goes to the governments consolidated revenue and they don't have to tax you as much.

It is just like any other revenue generating assett, once you have sold it and spent the money.
Then you look at the balance sheet and say where do we get the money from, AH yes increase taxes.LOL

Julia · 12 August 2012

You seem to continue to ignore Malcolm Turnbull's contradiction of what Mr Abbott said. Why on earth would Turnbull make the statement he did, if Mr Abbott had not said the electricity price rises were all due to the carbon tax? Ian Macfarlane also made the same contradiction.

It's not all, but he has tried to be too cute here, or as George Megalogenis put in on Insiders this morning, he's overcooked it.

He certainly has and that was my point, i.e. that he diminishes his own credibility by making stupidly extravagantly untrue statements. The electorate are not so dumb that they cannot recognise this.

There was either a lack of information flowing from state Leberal Premiers offices to TA's office on this or TA himself was again trying to be too cute or he was simply poorly advised on what to say.

He shouldn't need advice from anyone to understand that to make a blatantly untrue statement is stupid.

Either way, it does leave the impression that regardless of all its faults in office, Labor still runs a better political machine than the oppositition. He should have gone more for Gillard and less for the gold plating.

Agree entirely.

Smurf1976 said:
How many MP's have a background in engineering or any other practical field? There's a lot of decisions being made based on what the text books say without any real understanding of how it applies in the real world. Hence everything from public transport to water to electricity falls in a heap despite a fortune being spent.

Very relevant comment. Union hacks and political party employees with no experience in business of any kind are making these huge decisions. You'd have to hope they receive good advice, but that seems questionable.

drsmith · 12 August 2012

Julia said:
You seem to continue to ignore Malcolm Turnbull's contradiction of what Mr Abbott said. Why on earth would Turnbull make the statement he did, if Mr Abbott had not said the electricity price rises were all due to the carbon tax? Ian Macfarlane also made the same contradiction.

I would like to see the specific comments from the above to which you refer in prefernce to the media commentary they generate.

sptrawler · 16 August 2012

Wow the government Industry task force, has brought out it's findings.
It has recommended that as electricity prices affect our competitiveness, the price of the carbon tax should be linked to an international scheme.
Well how much did we pay for that gem!!!!! They could have got that info from the ASF forum for nothing.
Is this a precursor for another goon show backflip.

There is one thing for sure, the labor party should enter a team in the "comedy festival"

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ints-finger-at-carbon-tax-20120815-2495o.html

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