Labor Tax Policy, where is it?

[Smurf1976]

Apprentices in recent times (as far as I have been told) are mainly "trained" as cheap labour-hire substitutes and have very limited skills/training compared to the past.

Agreed 100% though there are a few employers who are exceptions.

 

[Aussiejeff]

its brilliant.... on the 7:30 report, they played clips of the 96 election..

1. Howard saying he's not going to be rushed into releasing his tax plan
2. Keating running adds saying the liberals are inexperienced and can't be trusted in govt

funny stuff... the same things repeated, now just with the sides switced...

the best thing to take of all this, is that in 6 weeks it will be over, and life will go on...

Indeed Rafa! Unfortunately, many new voters in this election were only 10-12 year old kiddies back then, so coming in to this election have absolutely NO first hand experience of the creepy DE-JAVU feeling that prickled the old grey hairs on the back of MY neck when in the last couple of days the Coalition started spouting the EXACT same hoo-haa that was foisted upon them back in '96!

Obviously, Johnny remembers how uncomfortable HE felt at the time back then and wants to play the same trickery this time around.

Gee, we really get a great choice at election time don't we? Almost as good as the old Two Airline Policy that guranteed us "competition" and "cheap airfares"! Spew....

AJ

 

[Aussiejeff]

On the SBS Insight program last night the forum consisted almost entirely of young voters - many of them first timers in this election - and they were asked what election policies interested them and if they knew who they were going to vote for... most of them seemed to be swinging liberals (who thought they would likely vote Liberal BUT might actually vote Labour if the election campaign threw up some issue that actually engaged their attention toward Labour..).

Interestingly, the new Liberal tax policy was hardly mentioned as a primary factor for the vast majority of the forum group - in fact, only one or two made a belated mention of it after the presenter had prompted them about the policy three quarters of the way through the hour program!

The main policy issues that seemed to interest these young folk (not in exact order of preference) were: Climate Change, Education, Cost of Housing, Hospitals and Health, Broadband and Internet Services, Public Infrastructure and Work Choices. A big majority of young voters said that the use by both sides of YouTube and FaceBook as mediums to "get their political messages across" to the Y generation were mostly laughable - not because of the attempt, but more by the way the politicians used this "new" form of communication in a "staid, old fashoned media way". They suggested Howard (Costello) and Rudd should use a more interactive and casual approach and better utilise younger spokespeople who could connect much better with members of their own age groups.

One of the over-riding impressions that the presenter (and myself) got from the whole forum was the powerful sense of disconnection these young voters had for the whole political process, with significant numbers saying things like :

(a) they didn't really care about looking into the various policies and instead would vote the way their parents told them to vote.

(b) they preferred to get politically informed by comedy shows like The Chaser and generally thought the whole process was a "bit of a joke".

(c) they had grown up with everything they wanted, lacking for nothing and couldn't care less if everything just continued on the same.

I found all these off-the-cuff remarks somewhat disturbing, coming as they were from the very people who will be running the country in a few more years and who are supposed to be deciding THEIR futures! A care less attitude is not what the doctor ordered.....

Another interesting reaction occured when towards the end of the show, one of the few young people claiming to be a solid Labour voter reminded the mostly swinging Liberals in the forum that when they vote for John Howard they will in fact be getting Peter Costello as Prime Minister after a short term of Howard. This reminder prompted a bit of surprise amongst some of the young swinging Liberals, with a few of them suddenly changing their voting stance and indicating they hadn't realised that fact and that they do not want Costello as Prime Minister and now might change their vote!

So, if this VERY INTERESTING forum last night was any indication at all, the pollies have a little more to worry about regarding engaging the vote of the "Y" generation than spouting off Tax Policies ad-infinitum. According to young voters, Howard (Costello) & Rudd need a complete re-invention!

And come election day, maybe Howard's guaranteed handover to the far-less-liked Costello will cost him a siginificant number of those "bonus" votes he would hope to get from the new Tax Policy.


AJ

 

[nioka]

On the SBS Insight program last night the forum consisted almost entirely of young voters - many of them first timers in this election

One of the over-riding impressions that the presenter (and myself) got from the whole forum was the powerful sense of disconnection these young voters had for the whole political process, with significant numbers saying things like :

(a) they didn't really care about looking into the various policies and instead would vote the way their parents told them to vote.

(b) they preferred to get politically informed by comedy shows like The Chaser and generally thought the whole process was a "bit of a joke".

(c) they had grown up with everything they wanted, lacking for nothing and couldn't care less if everything just continued on the same.

I found all these off-the-cuff remarks somewhat disturbing, coming as they were from the very people who will be running the country in a few more years and who are supposed to be deciding THEIR futures! A care less attitude is not what the doctor ordered.....AJ

I wouldn't worry too much about it, They don't know as much as they think they do at this inexperienced stage of their life. They are outnumbered, and while they are an important part of society they are not yet in charge of the situation. They are out numbered by reformed hippies from the 70s.

 

[TheAbyss]

Remember it was Labor that radically reformed the tax system, by slashing the top tax rate from 60 cents in the dollar to 49 cents in the dollar, introducing imputation credits, deregulating the financial sector, floating the dollar, introducing fair enterprise bargaining all things Howard didn't do when he was treasurer.

Howard won't even deregulate the wheat industry properly (despite Tuckey calling for it).

Why is it that there is no competition in training of medical specialists despite inquiry after inquiry of the productivity commission recommending it?

 

[The Mint Man]

I wouldn't worry too much about it, They don't know as much as they think they do at this inexperienced stage of their life. They are outnumbered, and while they are an important part of society they are not yet in charge of the situation. They are out numbered by reformed hippies from the 70s.

You would be right in most cases however one thing AussieJeff forgot to mention is that this was a forum of young voters from an electorate that has a higher than average gen Y population. On top of that it is one of the many marginal seats that Labor needs to win. seems to me that they may hold the power!

The girl that pointed out that Costello would be PM in a couple of years was very Labor and basically said that she was voting for change. Not too smart IMO! she also stated that her family was ALP all the way.
Another thing that jeff forgot to mention is that at least one of them said that he wouldn’t mind if Costello was PM in a couple of years time as he thought he had done a good job with the economy. Many of them nodded their heads!

Lastly nioka, I think your comments are an insult to the people that were on Insight last night. Did you watch it? Some of these people were quite smart and all were very well spoken. Even the young electrician on there (bleached hair and all) had some very good points to make and was concerned about an array issues.
Being in my mid 20's, I have to say that I was actually very surprised to see that most were leaning towards the Liberals.
Maybe I'm not on my own after all! I think this vote is going to be an important one after all.
And if thats the case now, just imagine in another 3 years time when more gen y voters come through and the boomers are starting to drop off.

Cheers

 

[Aussiejeff]

Yup. You could be right The Mint Man. We might have Liberal Governments for the next 50 years straight.... at least I won't be around to see that!

AJ

 

[Smurf1976]

My experience is that voters 18 - 25 tend to vote for whoever is already in power since they have no experience with the alternatives.

Another thing I've noticed is that those aged around 20 now are somewhat more socially conservative than was the case for 20 year olds a decade ago.

When I was 20 I don't recall knowing anyone who was anything but absolutely liberal in attitude towards things like, for example, gay marriage and public discussion of sex. Of course it was right and it was simply old fashioned for anyone to think otherwise. Conservative meant "old" and we were glad our generation didn't have to live with such concepts.

But out of all the 20-ish people I know now, few if any would be absolutely in favour of gay marriage, public discussion of sex on the radio and the like. At the very least they would have some issues with the concept. Even where the environment is concerned, they are less radical than was generally the case a decade or two ago and are far more concerned about the financial implications of such issues. They are conservative in their outlook.

IMO that shift in attitude is partly a consequence of the government we have (not saying it is wrong or right, just observing) which promotes moral conservatism and general worship of the Dollar. That view is now very clearly reflected in todays 20 year olds just as a decade or so ago those of that age were very much pushing the Labor line of the era since they grew up under a Labor government.

I nearly joined the Liberal party at age 18 and have voted both Labor and Liberal in subsequent State and Federal elections. Nothing seems as black versus white now as it did when I was 18. That even applies to the issues I was involved with at the time - I understand the other side a LOT better now and even though I still don't agree with it I can certainly see their point.

One thing I always look for in a politician is evidence that they are not taking an extreme position on anything. Those that do take extreme positions generally haven't realised, or simply don't care, that when someone wins there is normally also a loser. In most cases, if you haven't identified the losers then you haven't understood the proposal.

 

[The Mint Man]

Yup. You could be right The Mint Man. We might have Liberal Governments for the next 50 years straight.... at least I won't be around to see that!

AJ

Hehe, I dunno about that

Smurf,
Just like to say, as I have said before in other threads, your always good for a full analysing post. You must type fast? Cheers

 

[Rafa]

smurf, i beleive your analysis is spot on...

the young today are definitely more conservative that 10-20 years ago...

why? not sure, i think its swings and round-abouts really... everything happens in cycles, its helps keep the world balanced

in the case if rudd, i know a lot of his support (mine included, even tho mint-man, i know you might find it hard to beleive )... is becuase of his conservative beliefs... God, Family, Fair go, social justice, etc...

 

[Rafa]

since this topic is about tax... here is an interesting article from SMH...

Indexed to inflation, the tax cuts deliver nothing to taxpayers.

JOHN Howard's $34 billion tax cut is neither a fistful of dollars nor tax reform. It is a chimera designed to give back to wage earners the growth in the tax burden as wages rise with inflation, pushing workers into higher tax brackets.

Malcolm Fraser introduced income tax indexation in 1976 to impose discipline and honesty on government financial management.

The automatic indexation of income tax scales in line with inflation was taken for granted by taxpayers. It was quickly abandoned so that the Fraser (and subsequent) governments could get the credit for tax cuts legislated in parliament in a blaze of publicity.

But nobody has tried this old ploy on the scale of the Howard Government, apparently building the strategy for the six-week election campaign around it. Nevertheless, if the headlines are any guide, the media have taken the bait. They all stressed the total $34 billion tax cut. It looks huge — because it aggregates four years' worth of cuts.

Canberra economist Ian McAuley has crunched the Coalition's tax cuts in real and nominal terms, based on Treasury's inflation rate assumption of 2.75 per cent for 2007-08 for the four-year period.

The figures — online at the Centre for Policy Development website — show that the so-called tax cuts of $34 billion are about equal to the cost of full tax indexation over the period.

In other words, if wages don't keep pace with inflation or if inflation moves above the upper band of 3 per cent set by the Reserve Bank to manage monetary policy, wage earners' real disposable incomes could fall despite the nominal tax cuts.

Wage earners can study the detailed tables for their own situations. The broad picture is clear enough: income tax revenue is now $120 billion. Based on an inflation rate of 2.75 per cent — and without any increase in real wages — income tax revenue can be expected to rise by $3.3 billion in 2007-08 if not indexed. Over four years this rise would be roughly equal to $33 billion (3.3 + 6.6 + 9.9 + 13.2).

 

[The Mint Man]

since this topic is about tax... here is an interesting article from SMH...

Likewise,

Ready or not, it’s time for answers​

Piers Akerman
Wednesday, October 17, 2007 at 05:39pm

OVER the past two months, Opposition leader Kevin Rudd complained that the Coalition was afraid of calling an election.

Labor, he bragged, was ready to roll.

On Sunday, Prime Minister John Howard called that election.

On Monday, Rudd said he wasn’t ready to discuss the ALP’s tax policy.

Now Rudd is dancing around the question of a debate.

He’s ready for three, he says, but not the one the Coalition wants this Sunday.

How long does it take for Rudd to prepare for anything?

I wont post the whole article here but I will say that the rest of the article is VERY interesting indeed, ending with this;

Australia needs to know why the Goss government, incorporating the current Opposition leader, acted as it did, before it votes on November 24. And for the sake of justice, needs to know why this matter remains unresolved.

You can view the whole thing here - http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/piersakerman/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/ready_or_not_its_time_for_answers

Cheers

 

[arminius]

id like to give my view on this debate thing.

theres five weeks before the country votes.
howard insists on only one, ten minutes into the campaign.
judging by the posts on this and other forums, much of the country is relatively uninformed, or are swayed by the politics of fear.

if the debate goes on before labours tax policy is released, 80% of this debate will be howard jumping up and down about its non existence.

also, since tax is on the brain, 90% of the debate will be centred on economics, as the libs want- (global and local economic boom,-mining-chindia).

a lot less will be said about foreign policy, human rights, fundamental democracy, the environment, education, health, aboriginal affairs, etc etc.

if howard gets smashed by rudd, it will a distant memory come election day, and the interim will be saturated with smear and fear.

for the sake of basic democracy, with a view to giving voters an accurate picture, 2 or 3 debates should be held on free to air , widely available tv.

abbott last night conceded that jh has got nothing.

no doubt liblovers will cry foul with this view.

cheers, Brett.

 

[The Mint Man]

judging by the posts on this and other forums, much of the country is relatively uninformed, or are swayed by the politics of fear..

In a way I agree with your comments about fear, But lets get real here mate... thats what life is most the time EG:- The stock markets = fear, dont eat this or that its bad for you... eat subway instead = fear, mobile phones give you radiation so buy our hands free kit = fear, use our shampoo or you will get bad dandruff = fear, use this cream so that people dont see your big pimples = fear..... its no different in politics!
I'm interested in what end your coming from too? I'm guessing Labor considering your last comment but lets get real here. What sort of advertisments have they and the unions been runing for all this year? yep you guesed it fear advertisments.
Vote liberal and you will lose all your rights, be earning $2 an hour, lose your house as a result, break your leg when your moving out of the house so you go to the hospital but theres no nurses, remember? they all quit because they lost all their rights, were earning $2 an hour, lost their house as a result...........

My point is that neiter side of politics can point the finger, they both use these tactics and like it or not, sometimes the adverts are true.
IMHO Rudd is a hypocrite on this one

Cheers

 

[--B--]

judging by the posts on this and other forums, much of the country is relatively uninformed, or are swayed by the politics of fear.

absolutely. The fear campaign and misinformation propagated by the ALP and unions over workchoices has resulted in many people uninformed and unaware. many of these are completely swayed by the politics of fear....

 

[nioka]

absolutely. The fear campaign and misinformation propagated by the ALP and unions over workchoices has resulted in many people uninformed and unaware. many of these are completely swayed by the politics of fear....

And the only reason Howard is still there is the fear of a flood of asian boat people. Children overboard and all that, remember. You needen't fear that Rudd has no tax policy, he will come up with one in due time. Maybe you should fear that Howards tax cuts will leave no room for infrastructure investment or that it is a noncore promise that Costello is not bound to keep.

 

[--B--]

And the only reason Howard is still there is the fear of a flood of asian boat people. Children overboard and all that, remember.

oh how could we forget.. the howard haters never miss a chance to bring up those old chestnuts.. but what about AWB?? - you forgot that one...

You needen't fear that Rudd has no tax policy, he will come up with one in due time.

oh i dont doubt he is carefully copying down much of the libs policy as we speak.

Maybe you should fear that Howards tax cuts will leave no room for infrastructure investment or that it is a noncore promise that Costello is not bound to keep.

ahhh the old "core" and "non-core" doozy. thats always a beauty.

 

[nioka]

oh how could we forget.. the howard haters never miss a chance to bring up those old chestnuts.. but what about AWB?? - you forgot that one...

oh i dont doubt he is carefully copying down much of the libs policy as we speak.

ahhh the old "core" and "non-core" doozy. thats always a beauty.

All facts that the Liberals wish would go away. They are the facts. or some of them, that have caused me to vote labour this time, the first time in 50years of voting and I,m not happy to have to do it.

 

[arminius]

mint man, u asked where i was coming from. as im getting jack of all this, ill put it out there. this might be long, and i apologise in advance.

im 39 with two young kids. ive worked here there and everywhere,incl truck driving, small business, and youth work. i am not a member of a union or a political party, inc labour. im just about to finish a Bachelor of arts, maj in english and history, and will soon teach at high school. dont pull me up for grammar n spelling as im being lazy.
ive travelled for 4 yrs all over the place and lost my parents at a young age. im not rich, im not poor, and ive got a great family. i play and coach rugby, used to be in the army, and dont mind a beer. (or a chilled verdehlo with steamed fish and lemon).

ive never met any pollies and dont have a personal axe to grind. i guess when it comes to politics it comes down to what your expectations are, and what sort of nation u want to live in.

also, 2 things i take into account. what the incumbents have done, and what the alternative have to offer.

(some of) what the howard govt has done over ten yrs. for the sake of brevity i will be general. evidence is available if you look for it, im not gonna do it for you.

- made no real effort to improve the lives of our indiginous people. until just before election.

- ignored scientific reports on the detrimental effects of global warming. until just before an election. even now, theres no target for industry, no incentive.

-condoned the invasion of a soverign country for reasons the yanks have admitted were false. our 'help' even then effectively amounts to a company of diggers (100 men) plus support, tucked away where they wont get hurt. not one aussie dig has patrolled the streets of Baghdad. our real support has been the most telling. political. we had an opportunity to stand up to the US in front of the world and say 'friend, this is wrong and we will sit this one out'

-as our population grows, more kids go to school, so more money gets put in to the system. BUT, relative to numbers less federal money has been handed over. same with health. more people, more strain, less money per person.

-to defend Oz we need a dominant air force more than anything else. the govt committed to buy super hornets. they are a commodore station wagon compared to our potential enemy's audi A4. the air force was not consulted!
then they bought amphib transports. pack it with soldiers and it will take the ENTIRE ADF to defend it in wartime. a stupid, very expensive waste
why this decision? so we can act as an extra brigade for the US army. our whole strategic outlook has lost all independance.

thanks to china, our national income has gone beserk over the last 6-7 yrs. (check eg: reserve bank website. income from mining). table H i think.
what has happened to this windfall? iraq, water plan? (again relevant dept's not consulted), 30 dollar tax cuts, mersey hospital, subsidy for people to put cars on gas etc.
any responsible govt would say ok, what do we need? local councils are short of cash, states are short of cash, highways are shocking, a shortage of homes to house for, among others, 280 000 immigrants, bugger all doctors and nurses in the country, 50 cents petrol excise, overcrowded railways, a very fast train between melbourne and brisbane perhaps, how about expanding port facilities and other infrastructure in the mining areas so this country is not reliant on china or japan to build it. australasian mining is shipping in a prefab mine site cause we cant build it here.
-what have we got? boasts about massive surplus. cant eat cash john.
i could run the economy to a surplus. earn more than what i spend.
all of the pork barrelling pressures I rates, and they will go up in November, which will be sweet justice considering the last election.

these things take foresight and responsibility, and thought, but we have a govt that does what? something like the mersey hospital fiasco.

- erode democracy. a few years ago the govt promised war veterans an increase in pay. then they reneged after the election. a PUBLIC SERVANT told the press, and it made news. what happened? the p servant got the sack and the journo's were charged.

anyone read the sedition laws? if people cannot talk openly about terrorism, they take it underground. if you can't speak out about things that irk you, you are eventually, over time, driven to take drastic measures. look at pakistan...muslims killed in the red mosque by the govt, attempted bhutto assasination yesty, hundreds dead. same principle. read 'silencing dissent' for a worrying insight into the methods of the howard govt and the demise of aussie democracy.
hicks rotted in gaol for 5 yrs without the slightest chance of a trial, until the people jacked up. i dont care if he was obladens right hand man, everyone deserves a trial, or democracy is eroded.

the nation cannot handle the mining boom, everything is in short supply, and what do we get...tax cut of 20-40 dollars. why, because they are popular. this govt does things for popularity. i want a govt that does things because they are right.

honesty. personally, i value integrity. i know its old but when that boat was sinking and the kids were 'thrown overboard', howard and reith forbade the naval officer from telling the truth for fear of dismissal.
hanneef was an innocent, diligent doctor. they tried every trick in the book to get aussies to jack up and ask to be saved from the 'mad terrorist'. thanks largely to his lawyers it failed.

i'll pause here on howard.

what rudd offers.
- ive read some of their policies and they seem fine.

the negs are
'union control'- i dont believe it, and unions do the hard work on behalf of 90% of the people. remember, Hitler abolished unions in 1933.
if unions go too hard, labour knows they'll get voted out in 3 yrs.

inexperience- they have years of experience in decision making, thinking, communicating, and diplomacy. its enough for me. besides, are we to have an 'experienced' lib govt for ever?

me tooism- mostly political, not wanting to rock the boat of conservative australia too much. people are afraid of change. too much change is scary.

if you are still with me, you've got more patience than i.

there was a time when i'd read the sport section of the paper first. i didnt like politics at all, but my attitude has changed as my knowledge base has increased.

there is much much more, but i gotta mow the lawn.

ive never been more angry than what i am now.

have a beaut weekend,
Brett.

 

[Julia]

And the only reason Howard is still there is the fear of a flood of asian boat people. Children overboard and all that, remember. you should fear that Howards tax cuts will leave no room for infrastructure investment or that it is a noncore promise that Costello is not bound to keep.

Nioka, I don't think you can reasonably say the only reason John Howard is still there is the fear of a flood of Asian boat people. On the whole people have relegated that to the category "oh well, another stunt, but that was then". Now I have the impression that most people who are favouring the Libs are doing so essentially because (a) they feel they are good economic managers and without that, you have stuff all, and (b) they simply can't like the Opposition.

That is not to say those of us at this stage intending to vote Liberal are entirely happy with the choice (war in Iraq, lack of care for disadvantaged sectors of society, and much more.)