Ken Henry Tax Reform

[ColB]

Originally posted by Whiskers

Trainspotter, mate... I do wish you had not bought into other people's discussion... at least before making sure brain was engaged first.

Sorry to be blunt, but when you ask any Psychologist, Manager or Human Resource Manager in particular, with a degree or better who has done a thorough job of their study you will see how careless, ignorant and useless, to put it mildly, this attempted ridicule is.

They are not my concepts, they have been around for ages and any teen doing a half decent job studing Psychology or Management, HRM in particular at uni will be familiar with it.

I might just add that most competent managers and leaders are also familiar with the concept, as is I'm sure Rudd is, as his ability to influence people indicates..."

Rudd definitely has an ability to influence people so much so that he has buckleys chance of getting my vote and probably the vote of any other clear thinking invividual. How could any other party possibly do worse than this bunch of clowns?

 

[drsmith]

They all wear blue hats and think their geniusus.

 

[drsmith]

Six hats ??

Six distinct states are identified and assigned a color:

Questions (White) - considering purely what information is available, what are the facts?
Emotions (Red) - instinctive gut reaction or statements of emotional feeling (but not any justification)
Bad points judgment (Black) - logic applied to identifying flaws or barriers, seeking mismatch
Good points judgment (Yellow) - logic applied to identifying benefits, seeking harmony
Creativity (Green) - statements of provocation and investigation, seeing where a thought goes
Thinking (Blue) - thinking about thinking

It's more like how to think like children.

 

[Whiskers]

Six hats ??



It's more like how to think like children.

Yes, in a way. Getting back to basics.

We tend to grow up and get set in our ways. It's a handy process to remember, to remind us of our basic instincts and related behaviour, while learning how to manage them in an adult capacity for best effect.

But ideally, one needs to do personality style analysis to better understand oneself, cos the information we percieve is filtered and cognitised according to our individual dominant personality traits.

Unfortunately, all this knowledge and talent doesn't necessairly equal good behaviour or decisions, sometimes just good ability to manage or manipulate people... often referred to as toxic people.

Child molesters, psychopaths and super con artists are the worst end of the range... many politicans would come somewhere next down the list and as I mentioned Rudd is certainly up there with the most influential politicians.

Hence my bewilderment at why some don't appreciate a slower flow of change and new measures that must surely be easier to scrutenise and rectify than a gung-ho 100mph death wish.

 

[trainspotter]

Completely off topic now Whiskers ...... zzzzzzzzzzz ........ 6 hats indeed !! This is what I was elucidating about in regards to the introduction of superfluous diatribe that is not part of the discussion. It is not necessary or critical to the debate. We are now off topic completely.

I have studied peoples mannerisms, social interactions including their "ticks", nervous behaviour, including social behavior, personality, researched psych methods, therapeutic techniques and finally just get them pissed as a newt to see their real personalities come out once alcohol has taken effect. I have seen meek and mild accountants turn into lion tamers and macho dudes reduced to crying babies in the corner sucking their thumb.

The 6 thinking hats theory you have thrown up is merely a book by Edward de Bono written in 1985, himself a proven fraudulent who prays on the misfortune of people looking for an excuse to blame others as to why they are unsuccessfull in life. I have been to his "power of positive thinking" forums on several occasions and liken them to Amway meetings.

"De Bono believed that the key to a successful use of the Six Think Hats methodology was the deliberate focusing of the discussion on a particular approach as needed during the meeting or collaboration session. For instance, a meeting may be called to review a particular problem and to develop a solution for the problem. The Six Thinking Hats method could then be used in a sequence to first of all explore the problem, then develop a set of solutions, and to finally choose a solution through critical examination of the solution set. " THANK YOU WIKI ANSWERS !!

Just when I thought I was getting somewhere with you Whiskers .... you let me down.

"There are times when it is better to do nothing then rush headlong into a folly" my grandpappy always used to say and I believe this is one of those times. Clearly you have failed to read what I have written ...again.

Henry Tax Reform -Would have been better off to do nothing and wait until after the election to release the information. Get my drift now???

 

[Julia]

Let's be clear (again), I'm not and never have been aligned to any political party. I'm simply taking a logical and pragmatic look at all the information. Do you remember the six hats from your dispute resolution training. They are just as important to individual everyday application.

Well, Whiskers, my dispute resolution training was courtesy the ordinary old Justice Department, and they didn't indulge in such colourful psychobabble.
When I read your meanderings, I feel immensely grateful to the Justice Department.

You might notice that I intentionally play the devils advocate ocassionally as part of wearing different hats and some others maybe unconsciously do the same.

It seems to me that too many people wear the red or black hat too often and just don't want to change it.

Now if you're dwelling in your red or black hat for too long you may wrongly think I'm (different things)...

Oh dear.

ROFL@Whiskers - Dispute Resolution Training??


Different coloured hats for Chrissake ! Pfffffffffffffffffffttttttttt !!!

Six hats ??

Tell me something I don't know. And this is an industry wide characteristic.

Sir 0, you must be one of the few candid financial planners around. Goodonya!

 

[trainspotter]

Trainspotter, mate... I do wish you had not bought into other people's discussion... at least before making sure brain was engaged first.

Sorry to be blunt, but when you ask any Psychologist, Manager or Human Resource Manager in particular, with a degree or better who has done a thorough job of their study you will see how careless, ignorant and useless, to put it mildly, this attempted ridicule is.

They are not my concepts, they have been around for ages and any teen doing a half decent job studing Psychology or Management, HRM in particular at uni will be familiar with it.

I might just add that most competent managers and leaders are also familiar with the concept, as is I'm sure Rudd is, as his ability to influence people indicates.

Try google search 'Six Hat Thinking' or 'Six Hat Brainstorming' for an intro.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh I can't be bothered ! Other than to say you need to get a better search engine than Google. Try Bing .... it does the same thing.

I prefer Erik Erikson and his insight into identity crisis myself. Hope, will, purpose, competence, fidelity, love, caring, wisdom are his stages of lifes virtues.

Google this or even Bing it if you like for a different perspective.

 

[trainspotter]

By the way Whiskers, the verbal judo retort is a certified police training technique that has been used effectively since 1984. 6 hats ROFL @ you !

http://www.verbaljudo.com.au/ and http://www.verbaljudo.com/

BING !

 

[Whiskers]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh I can't be bothered !

Ahh, but you are botherd... to the point of posting three times... still emotionally attached (yellow hat) and the need to pass judgement (black hat).

I accept that you have studied such things as Verbal Judo cos that's the point I'm making about your style.

This is a technique that people like police, teachers, soldiers and even nurses need to use to influence people to do what they want. Little to do with conflict resolution and everything to do with you, the police or teacher etc being in charge, keeping in control of your subjects and the situation.

This is further indicated for example, by your use of the word debate as opposed to dialogue. Debate is confrontational whereas dialogue is an exchange of ideas.

Verbal judo is all about control.... the six hats concept is about cooperative analysis value adding and implementation. There's a world of differance. Control is just one aspect of the 6 hats, dialogue and conflict resolution generally.

I would add that Rudd is also an exponent of verbal judo, control as in the unbalanced or misplaced use of behavioural management skills, maybe even a toxic effect, especially towards his cabinet and staffers.

You will recall child abusers, psychopaths and con-artists etc are control freaks that went to the dark side. For control freaks it's a thin line to the dark side... one reason why military (control) type training often needs to be undone psychology to reduce the increased risk of social problems later.

Henry Tax Reform -Would have been better off to do nothing and wait until after the election to release the information. Get my drift now???

But were'nt you one that was critical of the gov for not releasing it sooner!

Anyway, I dissagree. Now that the gov has COAG out of the way and re-drafted the budget, there is really no good reason to delay the release or discussion of the recomendations.

My whole point is I accept that reform is inevetable and the more public consultation into the process the better for a good result.

Seriously, can you imagine the criticism and backlash if the henry report release was delayed until after the election!

Debate is a political style, dialogue is a social style.

I say, just please be thankfull for small mercies that they have not bombbarded us with a heap changes all at once and hopefully that they engage in community dialogue more this time.

 

[moXJO]

You forgot the 7th and most common hat on forums: Asshat


ass-hat
One whose head is so far up their rear end it could pass for a hat; used to describe a person who is stubborn, cruel, or otherwise unpleasant to be around.



(aimed at no one)

 

[Sir Osisofliver]

@ whiskers - Please don't derail the thread? I thought I would try politeness as you don't seem to be responding to all the negativity being thrown your way.

"The Rudd government's proposed 40 per cent Resources Super Profit Tax announced Sunday has been slammed by the industry, along with BHP Billiton’s Marius Kloppers and Fortescue Metals Andrew Forrest, and yesterday caused $9 billion to be wiped from the value of the ASX’s top 100 miners.

The tax is expected to commit an extra $12bn to the tax pool by 2014."

Nice one Kev.

Cheers

Sir O

 

[noco]

The Rudd Government, ie. Rudd and his brain washed well rehearsed lined cronies are all pushing the same barrow that the likes of BHP are 70% owned by overseas interests and profits are going overseas. So what? overseas investers are entitled to a fair dividend for their investment. Another con job to get voters on side.

I have money invested in Australian companies mining in South Africa, Cambodia, Yemen and Texas. So should I leave my dividneds in those countries or as Rudd states be a victim of 40% tax fall out. Actually, South African miners are only taxed 20%. So I can understand why Australian miners would divert their interests overseas. Can you blame them? Australia is now becoming an international laughing stock and is being well discussed by other countries.

The repercussions of course will be the loss of over $100 billion in cap-ex and many jobs. The unions will turn a blind eye to that.

I am entitled to a fair return on funds invested overseas just as overseas investors are entitled to a return for funds invested in Australia.

As Clive Palmer quoted yesterday, Rudd is becoming like a communist. I'm sure Rudd would like to see all mining become state owned so he get his grubby hands on all the profits.

 

[zzaaxxss3401]

The amount of money I have lost on mining stocks (including BHP and RIO) over the past few days, will FAR outway any tax gains I'll get back personally from the Government's tax gathering.

Even with this new tax, I'll still have lousy internet speed, poor mobile coverage in the country, shockingly poor roads, long hospital queues, congestion, public transport woes, housing problems, GST, and the Medicare Levy.

Can ANYONE outline what KRudd has done for the past 3 years?

NOTE: I used "done" rather than "achieved".

 

[trainspotter]

You forgot the 7th and most common hat on forums: Asshat

ass-hat
One whose head is so far up their rear end it could pass for a hat; used to describe a person who is stubborn, cruel, or otherwise unpleasant to be around.

(aimed at no one)

The best post on this thread so far IMO ! Other than The Muffin Mans inciteful dialogue on the mining companies finite resources for exploration etc.

 

[todster]

The Rudd Government, ie. Rudd and his brain washed well rehearsed lined cronies are all pushing the same barrow that the likes of BHP are 70% owned by overseas interests and profits are going overseas. So what? overseas investers are entitled to a fair dividend for their investment. Another con job to get voters on side.

I have money invested in Australian companies mining in South Africa, Cambodia, Yemen and Texas. So should I leave my dividneds in those countries or as Rudd states be a victim of 40% tax fall out. Actually, South African miners are only taxed 20%. So I can understand why Australian miners would divert their interests overseas. Can you blame them? Australia is now becoming an international laughing stock and is being well discussed by other countries.

The repercussions of course will be the loss of over $100 billion in cap-ex and many jobs. The unions will turn a blind eye to that.

I am entitled to a fair return on funds invested overseas just as overseas investors are entitled to a return for funds invested in Australia.

As Clive Palmer quoted yesterday, Rudd is becoming like a communist. I'm sure Rudd would like to see all mining become state owned so he get his grubby hands on all the profits.

BHP 40% foreign owned Rio 70% was what i read?
Harbinger was dumping iron ore prior to this can you explain that?
Yep there all going to pack up and head to the safe havens in Africa and S.America with there stable Governments
yeah yeah yeah
Don't think Rudd is the only one who uses spin

 

[trainspotter]

Let's try some facts here shall we !

According to Access Economics, since 1999, miners have paid $78bn in Australian royalties and taxes (just a tad shy of the $80bn in the profit increase Rudd identifies). And, in 2008-09, the miners total tax bill rose by $7.7bn to $20.1bn. That is a near seven-fold increase on the total tax bill in 1999, which was $2.64bn.

"And remember," the Prime Minister continued, "these companies, BHP and Rio, BHP is 40 per cent foreign owned, Rio Tinto is more than 70 per cent foreign owned, that means these massively increased profits, the $80bn I referred to before, built on Australian resources, are mostly, in fact, going overseas."

Now there are some real doosies in that little effort. The first thing to observe, just for the record, is that BHP Billiton is, in fact, about 60 per cent owned by non-Australian shareholders and Rio Tinto is nearly 85 per cent foreign owned.

My second observation would be that less than half of BHP's attributable profit was returned to shareholders through dividend payments while crisis-struck Rio's payout in 2009 represented a more miserly 16 per cent. Both companies then retained profits to invest in building or rebuilding their businesses. And that is the story across the mining sector.

For executives and shareholders alike, it is a capital growth industry not a yield play.

I think we should all read this http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...tical-imperative/story-e6frg8zx-1225861771939 for a little more clarity.

I called on the Govt to release the Henry Tax Review in all it's glory, not sit on it for 6 months and do nothing. This means to me an admission of guilt. Remember these are only recommendations and it is up to the Govt. to decide which, if any they are going to implement.

At the end of the day it is a great big fizzer IMO ..... a tax grab of Grinches released prior to an election. Makes a mockery of Ken Henry, 10 million dollars, 1000 pages, 138 reforms and 18 months of work.

 

[noco]

BHP 40% foreign owned Rio 70% was what i read?
Harbinger was dumping iron ore prior to this can you explain that?
Yep there all going to pack up and head to the safe havens in Africa and S.America with there stable Governments
yeah yeah yeah
Don't think Rudd is the only one who uses spin

Sorry, yes you are right about Rio 70%. Just got it around the wrong way.

As a point of interest, my portfolio of investments in Australia have dropped from between 2% and 10% since that stupid announcement of 40% by Rudd and Swan. My overseas interest have increased. What would you recommend my friend, sell my Australian interests and invest in overseas operations?

 

[Calliope]

Sorry, yes you are right about Rio 70%. Just got it around the wrong way.

As a point of interest, my portfolio of investments in Australia have dropped from between 2% and 10% since that stupid announcement of 40% by Rudd and Swan. My overseas interest have increased. What would you recommend my friend, sell my Australian interests and invest in overseas operations?

Todster has been practising Rudd's spin. He still has a long way to go.

 

[bellenuit]

Super-profit tax to boost Canada's competitive advantage, says Jim Flaherty

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...ays-jim-flaherty/story-e6frg9df-1225862465958

 

[todster]

Todster has been practising Rudd's spin. He still has a long way to go.

Calliope old mate the irony of your address cracks me up every post!