Observe, touch or measure an idea.
As for the rest, there doesn't seem to be a point, so I'm not sure.
Two separate teams of researchers from the United States and Japan have announced they have re-programmed skin cells into cells that mimic embryonic stem cells.
People actually still think this is a logical objection?! There are only three possibilities.
1) The universe created itself
2) The universe is uncreated
3) Something/someone created the universe
1) is impossible. It would need to exist prior to itself in order to create itself.
2) has been shown wrong. The universe had a beginning.
3) hence, something/someone created the universe
well if you're saying "God" is an "idea" that cannot be proven , touched, observed, or measured , i'd agree with you .
As to whether there's a point (there), I think that's what the thread is about, and I think the jury is still out. (but hey - they'd quickly rally if you produced any of that evidence you talk about).
When was the last time you observed/touched/measured an idea?.
People actually still think this is a logical objection?! There are only three possibilities.
1) The universe created itself
2) The universe is uncreated
3) Something/someone created the universe
1) is impossible. It would need to exist prior to itself in order to create itself.
2) has been shown wrong. The universe had a beginning.
3) hence, something/someone created the universe
While this does not prove God, it shows the universe had a creator. Some entity brought it into existence.
Who created the creator? This is the old parlour trick of infinite causal regresses which are just logically impossible. Something somewhere exists causelessly,
Some scientists, not liking the idea of God, have posited a multiverse of billions of universes. Hey presto! A god to fill in the gaps. We'll just call it a multiverse, wave a cloth and hope no-one notices it is not a scientific hypothesis because it CANNOT be tested by the methods of science as one cannot get outside this universe in order to check out its feasibility. So whether or not you like it, ultimately everyone makes certain basic assumptions about reality which are untestable and unprovable. Pick one.
Just don't consider yourself more logical, rational or enlightened because you picked a different one to someone else.
Read the post I referred. Apparently a god can't be proven because he/she/it cannot be touched, observed or measured. The illogic of this claim is apparent when one realises there are many things that exist which cannot be touched, observed or measured. Science cannot be touched, observed or measured for example. It is an idea. But it seems to be worshiped by many here.
Science cannot be touched, observed or measured for example. It is an idea. But it seems to be worshiped by many here.
There is a difference between god and religion. Because you believe in god does not mean you believe in religious mumble jumble.Whilst I don't normally openly criticise ones beliefs in front of them I find it very difficult to understand ones justifications for believing in a god or religion.
I guess it comes down to the fact that its a human trait to have to justify life, love, death, etc. I think it is a weak and medieval thought to believe that something/someone is controlling creation and creations just because we don't have definitive proof otherwise.
The idea that the universe was created is ludicrous. Why make up some extravagant story about a supreme being? I think we need to look at the time period these thoughts became staple to answer this. Religious groups had enormous power and would do anything to keep it.
I'm surprised with the number of people in this thread believe in god. I would have thought that all here were reasonably-logically thinking individuals (with the collective aim of this forum) would stand back and questions what is force fed to a large number of us.
Surely we all can understand evolution. We see it every day of our lives, it might not be to the extent us forming into horned, red skinned, pointy tailed beings but more to the tune of learning from mistakes we make.
The one with the most control over our own lives is ourselves.
It has not been shown that the universe had a beginning, scientists have guestimated to a few milliseconds after a guestimated big bang. Not everything needs a beginning, human misconception.When was the last time you observed/touched/measured an idea?
People actually still think this is a logical objection?! There are only three possibilities.
1) The universe created itself
2) The universe is uncreated
3) Something/someone created the universe
1) is impossible. It would need to exist prior to itself in order to create itself.
2) has been shown wrong. The universe had a beginning.
3) hence, something/someone created the universe
Are you saying that God is an idea? this is precisely my point. God is not real, just an idea. Ideas can be measured, see further below.
3) is you jumping to conclusions. You have not made a valid argument at all. Why does "the Universe exists" = "God created it"?
Is it your argument that God can exist causelessly but the universe cannot? If so why?
I think you have done a very good job of proving my point. Every argument or theory about the creation of the universe is as valid as any other, including the God argument, so why believe in that particular one?
Why do you have to pick one??
You have picked one based on blind faith. I refuse to pick one until i see proof.
Not everything needs a beginning, human misconception.
The universe has always been and always will be.
The universe and every element within is god.
To use Plato's words , to say that God did it is not to explain anything, but simply to offer an excuse for not having an explanation .
Science is theory , accepted until proven wrong or a disaster ceases the economic worth sought . The technologies of today are it's banners .
So too , is global warming , the expansion of warfare and many other advances put to use against whomever the maker or owner likes .
It has no morales .
Belief in God is a faith . Usually endowed with morales .
Both have been used to attack ones fellow mankind , but both can't be totally right .
The manipulation of both have ensured that , the church groups with their perverse conduct , the science groups with their theories and blundering mistakes .
The science group fear the believer or hold them in contempt , due to the input and barriers in place , usually a product of morales . Many of the faith group fear the unmoralistic approaches in science or the ways in which they achieve them .
The choice is yours .
1. I'm one that has gone in the other direction1. I've been an atheist. I'm now a believer. There are others who have gone the opposite direction.
2. I am now far more interested in the practical outcome of belief or disbelief.
Nyden said:Just disappearing, ceasing to exist.
Nyden - as willie have put it ...
"We are such stuff
As dreams are made on, and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep. "
Well, to burst your bubble - dreams can be explained scientifically, they're not magic:
Then again, I don't even remember the last time I dreamt
Am I to assume you're religious? Can I ask - how do you manage to just ignore science, & logic? I mean; one begins to doubt the existance of Santa at a young enough age, what keeps "god" alive in your daily life?
PS I am a pantheist - Mother Nature will do me just fine - but in the end, she expects us to respect the planet she's given us to look after ..And also as the self styled Lords of Creation , our responsibilities go beyond the selfish interests of mankind
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