Exactly. I find the concept that only those who believe in God have any understanding of a moral and ethical philosophy patronising and completely unrealistic.
Anyway, despite all that, I am no Christian-basher. I live in Thailand, and the greatest suffering in this part of the world is by the hundreds of thousands of Burmese who are driven from their homes at gunpoint by their military government (because they belong to the wrong ethnic group mostly).
1. Well I sure second that first comment - what a bombshell - if true of course - thanks Rob.1. Robroy, thanks for sharing - very insightful post. You have contributed well to this debate. ...
2. You posters continue to show intelligence and tolerance.
Lol Some might even say counter-intuitiveExactly. I find the concept that only those who believe in God have any understanding of a moral and ethical philosophy patronising and completely unrealistic.
And I’m these paths and I’m these doorsBuddhism :- Good deeds produce good results while bad deeds produce bad results. Karma and Vipaka is your own action and result.
CONSTANTINE
According to The Da Vinci Code, Constantine "was a lifelong pagan who was baptized on his deathbed, too weak to protest. . . . Rome's official religion was sun worship—the cult of Sol Invictus, or the Invisible Sun—and Constantine was its head priest" (p.232, DVC).
Once again, the record of history is significantly different than what Dan Brown states. According to church historian Kenneth Scott Latourette, Constantine was a fourth-century Roman Emperor who confessed a life-changing experience that caused him to reverse a longstanding persecution policy against Christians. His Edict of Milan in AD 313 extended to Christianity the toleration granted other religions of the day.
It's true that Constantine's alleged conversion to Christ is complicated by the fact that Roman emperors were regarded as both political and religious heads of state. In the Roman senate, Constantine was considered head priest of the cult of Sol Invictus, and also "pontifex maximus" (commander and chief) of the priests of the Rome's official religion.
Despite this mix of political and pagan religious power, history bears record that Constantine's interests were not merely political. Until his Edict of Milan, Christians had been regarded as enemies of the state because of their confession that Christ, rather than Caesar, is King of kings and Lord of lords.
Constantine's baptism just prior to his death may reflect a misguided belief in his day that water baptism washes away sin. There is reason to believe that he delayed his baptism until the last moment to try to assure that all the sins of his life would be cleansed.
According to Brown, "Jesus' establishment as 'the Son of God' was officially proposed and voted on by the Council of Nicaea." And "until that moment in history, Jesus was viewed by His followers as a mortal prophet . . . a great and powerful man, but a man nonetheless. A mortal" (p.233, DVC).
Without question, Constantine was a pivotal figure in church history who did more than grant followers of Christ protection under the law. He was also responsible for convening the Council of Nicaea in AD 325 to help church leaders develop consensus about the doctrine of Christ.
The council was convened because an aged presbyter named Arius denied the full deity of Christ by proclaiming, "There was [a time] when [Jesus] was not." Arius reasoned that because Jesus came into this world in physical form, He must be changeable—unlike God, His Father.
The views of Arius stirred great controversy among other church leaders who were convinced that the writings of both Old and New Testament Scriptures showed that the Messiah who came into the world was fully divine. The idea that Jesus was a God-man did not begin with Constantine. Hundreds of years before Jesus came into the world, Old Testament prophets anticipated a coming Messiah as "Mighty God" (Isaiah 9:6), "Immanuel" (Isaiah 7:14) meaning "God with us" (Matthew 1:23), and "the Lord" (Psalm 110:1).
This view of Jesus as God in the flesh was later taught by the apostles, who were eyewitnesses to all that Jesus said and did. According to the New Testament, these witnesses did not always form their opinions easily. One of them, named Thomas, is still known as "the doubter." Yet upon encountering the risen Christ, Thomas confessed, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28).
In our day, Thomas' words might sound like a profane exclamation. But his confession reflects the reasoned conclusion of other apostles who recorded what they had seen and heard. Peter addressed Jesus as "the Christ, the Son of the living God" (John 6:69). And the apostle Paul, after his conversion, ascribed to Jesus the essential attributes of God and full deity in human form (Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 2:9).
Additional evidence shows that belief in the deity of Christ preceded the days of Constantine. In the generations that followed the Apostolic Age, the full divinity of Christ was widely accepted by the church fathers. Justin Martyr in AD 150 wrote, "[Jesus is] the first-begotten Word of God, is even God." In AD 185, Irenaeus proclaimed that Jesus of Nazareth is "our Lord and God and Savior and King." Clement of Alexandria (c. AD 200) said that Jesus was "truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe."
When Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea, the Council's conclusion that Jesus Christ was "God of very God" had deep historical and scriptural roots. It's also important to note that he did not lead the Council but served as an advocate for reconciliation and agreement among the members (The Truth Behind The Da Vinci Code, Abanes, p.37; Breaking The Da Vinci Code, Bock, pp.101-102; Christendom Volume 1, Bainton, pp.97-98).
Even if Constantine did not project deity upon the man Jesus but cooperated with a growing consensus about His divine nature, was he responsible for destroying legitimate documents that should have been included in our Bible? Did Constantine tamper with the contents of the Bible?
"The Bible, as we know it today, was collated by the pagan Roman emperor Constantine," says Dan Brown's "expert" (p.231, DVC). He continues: "Because Constantine upgraded Jesus' status almost four centuries after Jesus' death, thousands of documents already existed chronicling His life as a mortal man. To rewrite the history books, Constantine knew he would need a bold stroke. From this sprang the most profound moment in Christian history. . . . Constantine commissioned and financed a new Bible, which omitted those gospels that spoke of Christ's human traits and embellished those gospels that made Him godlike. The earlier [Gnostic] gospels were outlawed, gathered up, and burned" (p.234).
Once again, however, the record of history is different. There is no evidence that Constantine ordered the burning of any Gnostic gospels. What were burned were Arian papers found by the Council of Nicaea to be heretical. This destruction of documents says more about the church's defense of the doctrine of Christ than it does about the origin of the New Testament.
The informal recognition of New Testament Scriptures was well under way long before Constantine. And the formal affirmation of the New Testament as we know it today occurred 72 years later at the Synod of Carthage (AD 397). It was then, decades after Constantine, that the official books of the Bible were ratified (A Timeline Of Church History, Conciliar Press).
Great thread peoples - most interesting reading various ideas on God and religion.
2020 - Great quote from Sitting Bull (or someone?) - I expect most American Indian's spirituality would fall within the realm of Pantheism - though probably one with a 'more shamanistic' bent.
I really think the 'Everything is God' concept of Pantheism (some folks say Nature or the Universe or Universal, some say Cosmos - but it's all the same) could potentially provide a bridge between religion and science - the main obstacle that must be overcome is peoples need to insist on an 'anthropomorphic' god. - that is a god who has human characteristics such as consciousness and human feelings etc..
Once you get past that and see the physical world as a result of timeless processes according to the laws of physics etc - then then you really do feel the same 'closeness' with God (ie Nature) the religious folks speak of. I feel the awesome power of Nature everytime I see the moon, or get dumped by a wave, or stop to inspect a 'perfectly imperfect' flower.
Pantheism also fosters a more realistic positioning of Humans WITHIN Nature as opposed to ABOVE or even AGAINST nature which is the philosophical position for Humans which tends to be borne out of standard religions. If we see ourselves as being 'part of sacred Nature', then it's simply a natural extension to want to protect and preserve Nature(God) to the extent possible.
As for some kind of life after death - I happily expect (I don't know - cause I havn't died... yet) that my continuance after death will take a number of forms.
1. will be in the form of my body being recycled back into Nature (ie God) and recycled forever more, through the cosmos, stars etc. (of course I'm talking extreme geological time here).
2. through my genes (presuming I have kids);
3. and also through my ideas, communications and actions which propagate from person to person, both directly and indirectly (ie via the internet! etc).
Hell... I could even become immortal (at least for the span of future human existence) by writing a best seller!!!! If guys like Plato and Einstein and yes - Sitting Bull don't qualify as immortal - then who does????????
The Wikipedia article mentions some different varieties of Pantheism - Most modern Pantheists (at least in the west) probably fall under 'Scientific Pantheism' - which obviously thinks of 'scientific' concepts/processes such as evolution as the means of development of this Nature/God of which we are all a part.
Anyway just some more thoughts on the Nature of God (pun DEFINITELY intended)
Hope I don't offend anyonewith my word count this time...
LOL EXCELLENT!well as posted previously i was researching and on the hunt for a god on account of feeling somewhat like i was missing out on something fantabulous
success
and through this i feel i can once and for all answer the question monstrum that has vexed all since the birth of this thread
for i am now a rumsfeldian
and the answer follows,
blessed harmony bestowed upon thy all (in lieu of a meditative and deeply understanding smiley)The Unknown
As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.
Anyway, the only people who give a toss about these guys are Christian missionaries. (The Buddhist Thais don't care about them - they believe it's their karma.) The Christians - a group called the Free Burma Rangers is particularly active - go into the jungle unarmed, carrying food, medicines and even schoolbooks for the kids. They've saved hundreds of lives, maybe thousands. They help these people to relocate, build new villages, whatever. Occasionally one of the Christians steps on a landmine; they also get sick. They don't see their families for months at a time. But the keep going, and they don't care about the religion of those they help: Buddhists, Christians and animists all get the same treatment.
So I am in the curious position of admiring many Christians - especially ones out this way: home-grown bible-bashers I can take or leave - but not believing in God.
good one happytown -There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.
There are things I know you know.
There are also some things
that I know you DON'T know.
But there are also things that
..
a) neither of us know if the other knows or doesn't know
b) I don't know but I pretend to know
c) and I hope you don't know I dont know
Originally Posted by george bush
There are things I know you know.
There are also some things
that I know you DON'T know.
But there are also things that
..
a) neither of us know if the other knows or doesn't know
b) I don't know but I pretend to know
c) and I hope you don't know I dont know
That makes perhaps for a good novel Dan Brown, opps ... I mean Robroy ... one that will not leave the fiction section though ...
http://www.rbcdavincicode.org/constantine.php
“If you see a small branch or a rock in the road that is causing traffic difficulties, and it’s relatively easy for you to stop and fix it, do you do so Y/N - he says yes.
But the interesting thing is WHY you should do it. He says, Not for the other drivers, Not for points in Heaven whatever, but Simply for your own self image He effectively turns it into a selfish act, that you jealously guard you own image of yourself as sacrosanct. I found that intersesting lol. Maybe you had to be there.
Robroy, I am afraid I will have to turn the table back here... I only see 'Dan Brown' brush strokes in your arguments ... and they are complete bs .. while they may stand unquestioned in a stock trading forum … try and take them to a religious forum, and you will not see the light of day for factual corrections.
The story of Jesus Christ, is perhaps the most researched and argued one in history ... I find your arguments parroting of others with agenda to only sell books (which you have bought), and try and refute the original story as told by Matthew, Mark , Luke and John (and by the way the origin of these books is well understood thanks to Biblical scholars ... I probably do not need to add, "no **** Sherlock") .
weird, we have not asked you to explain too many of these cut and pastes, but here's one question - the sort of thing that a barrister would ask you under cross examinationhttp://www.catholic.com/library/galileo_controversy.asp
Tortured for His Beliefs? In the end, Galileo recanted his heliocentric teachings, but it was not””as is commonly supposed””under torture nor after a harsh imprison- ment. Galileo was, in fact, treated surprisingly well.
but ahh the sea the mighty sea the ever wanton sea..weather was excellent last weekend in Dee Why. I'm having a break and going surfing. Tuning out from forums for a while ....
I was actually wrong - when I checked I found his Membership of the Amateur Bowling Club has appararently lapsed, and so MABC no longer appliesThought for the day after tomorrow week tuesday : It is conceivable that religion may be morally useful without being intellectually sustainable. John Stuart Mill 1806-1873. (MD, PhD, DSO, VC+bar, OAM, ASX, MABC, DNA, KBE)
Go placidly amid the noise and the haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
....
You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars you have a right to be here
and whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should .
Therefore be at peace with your god, whatever you conceive him to be, and whatever your labours and aspirations in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful. Strive to be happy
PS these are the kids that this should be directed toGo placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant; they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons they are vexations to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time. Exercise caution in your business affairs ; for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism. Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is as perennial as the grass.
Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself.
You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars you have a right to be here; and whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
Therefore be at peace with your god, whatever you conceive him to be, and whatever your labours and aspirations in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace with your soul. With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy .
Found in Old Saint Paul's Church. Baltimore , dated 1692.
Written by Max Ehrmann in the 1920s -- Not "Found in Old St. Paul's Church in 1692"
Around 1959, the Rev. Frederick Kates, the rector of St. Paul's Church in Baltimore, Maryland, used the poem in a collection of devotional materials he compiled for his congregation. (Some years earlier he had come across a copy of Desiderata.) At the top of the handout was the notation, "Old St. Paul's Church, Baltimore A.C. 1692." The church was founded in 1692. [1]
As the material was handed from one friend to another, the authorship became clouded. Copies with the "Old St. Paul's Church" notation were printed and distributed liberally in the years that followed. It is perhaps understandable that a later publisher would interpret this notation as meaning that the poem itself was found in Old St. Paul's Church, dated 1692. This notation no doubt added to the charm and historic appeal of the poem, despite the fact that the actual language in the poem suggests a more modern origin. The poem was popular prose for the "make peace, not war" movement of the 1960s.
When Adlai Stevenson died in 1965, a guest in his home found a copy of Desiderata near his bedside and discovered that Stevenson had planned to use it in his Christmas cards. The publicity that followed gave widespread fame to the poem as well as the mistaken relationship to St. Paul's Church. [1]
As of 1977, the rector of St. Paul's Church was not amused by the confusion. Having dealt with the confusion "40 times a week for 15 years," he was sick of it. [1]
This misinterpretation has only added to the confusion concerning whether or not the poem is in the public domain.
By the way, Desiderata is Latin for "Things to be Desired
".....the "make peace, not war" movement of the 1960s."
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