An open question to everyone:
For those of you who have set up a company to bypass the margin restriction, what brings you forward to do that
An open question to everyone:
For those of you who have set up a company to bypass the margin restriction, what brings you forward to do that, apart from having a multimillion dollar accountApart from that, how do you find the cost and regulatory burden justifiable? Setting up a private company is itself $444. Then there is this secretarial and annual papaerwork. Next, you will forgo the US-AUS agreement which means dividends are now taxable at 30% instead of 15%. And I am not sure if you can still have the 50% discount on capital gains on holdings that are longer than one year. There is a separate provivion for small business that has something similar, but I am just unsure if it is applicable in the case of US stocks.
Setting up a private company is itself $444.
Then there is this secretarial and annual paperwork.
Next, you will forgo the US-AUS agreement which means dividends are now taxable at 30% instead of 15%.
And I am not sure if you can still have the 50% discount on capital gains on holdings that are longer than one year.
Can you elaborate on this please:I can tell you that I have a Family trust account (just myself and my wife) and recently I updated a company name, (which is registered for about $230 a yr with ASIC) as the trustee and IB have since removed the margin restriction.
Can you elaborate on this please:
Did you have to sell and then re-buy all assets held by the family trust, as the ownership of those assets effectively changed when you set up the corporate trustee. This ofcourse has CGT and other implications.
Did you have to close the existing IB account and create a new one, or did IB just change the ownership of the account for you.
Can you provide any other details on how easy/difficult this was to do.
Here's my reasons:
- Unsure when/if IB will lift the restriction.
- Have put a fair bit of time/money into the system which can only be traded with IB
- short term trader, 50% CGT has not effect. Few dividends.
- may have a beneficial taxation advantage.
- annual fees are not excessive.
If you are on a low tax bracket (say a retiree earning under $37K and on the 19% rate), you can top up to the $37K level by paying yourself an appropriate amount of franked dividend from the company. This is a very tax effective way of withdrawing company profits.
One downside that you haven't mentioned is that for an investor, capital gains cannot be written off against carried forward capital losses of the other entity. Say you personally have $50K of carried forward capital losses. If the company makes $50k capital gains in the year, they are taxed at the company rate, whereas if the same gains were made by you personally you would pay no tax as they would have been written off against the carried forward losses.
Hi bellenuit. Thanks for such detailed reply! Much appreciated
I got a few questions though. At the end of a fiscal year, do you just send whatever records you have to your accountant and he/she will do the rest? Is there anything else that you have to send or do prior to tax time?
Also, what are the procedures/formalities for paying yourself a franked dividend? Do you just transfer the amount from your brokerage account to your personal bank account and then tell your account so he/she will do the rest (the paperwork)?
And what if you want to send in more capital to your company bank account which will be subsequently added to the brokerage account? I am guessing you will record every single action that you did and at the end of fiscal year your accountant will reconcile your written record with that of bank/brokerage statements?
I am a bit confused about the carried forward loss issue because when you explained it, you mixed both personal account and company account. Let say my company has a capital loss last year (-10k), and a capital gain this year (+20k). So this year my assessable capital gain is +10k?
Can you elaborate on this please:
Did you have to sell and then re-buy all assets held by the family trust, as the ownership of those assets effectively changed when you set up the corporate trustee. This ofcourse has CGT and other implications.
Did you have to close the existing IB account and create a new one, or did IB just change the ownership of the account for you.
Can you provide any other details on how easy/difficult this was to do.
The reason I ask is that I have an IB account in the name of my SMSF with my wife and I as trustees. Looks like I can get around the margin restrictions if I convert to a corporate trustee for the SMSF, but I'm not sure how much of a pain that is going to be, and what's actually involved.
I certainly don't want to change brokers, been with IB for 10 plus years and been using buttontrader frontend for most of that time too. Then again, IB could turn around tomorrow and say that no margin accounts are available to anyone or anything in Aus. Would be a lot of wasted effort and hassle if you converted to corporate trustee and that happened.
Worst case scenario would be IB quitting Australia altogether, I hope that doesn't happen. I can get by without margin I guess, if I had too, because most trading is futures and fx, but they might change the rules there too.
By the way, I don't know if this applies just to SMSF but I read somewhere that if the SMSF (which is just a trust really) has a corporate trustee and the only thing that company does is act as the trustee, then the annual fee is only something like $44, rather then $230.
Interesting, I was told by several different people you cannot use the IB margin account to trade with an SMSF as they are not permitted to trade under margin? I have a pty ltd sitting in the closet doing nothing that I was going to use as the corporate Trustee. Can you elaborate on this as I'm very interested.
Can you elaborate on this please:
Did you have to sell and then re-buy all assets held by the family trust, as the ownership of those assets effectively changed when you set up the corporate trustee. This ofcourse has CGT and other implications.
Did you have to close the existing IB account and create a new one, or did IB just change the ownership of the account for you.
Can you provide any other details on how easy/difficult this was to do.
The reason I ask is that I have an IB account in the name of my SMSF with my wife and I as trustees. Looks like I can get around the margin restrictions if I convert to a corporate trustee for the SMSF, but I'm not sure how much of a pain that is going to be, and what's actually involved.
I certainly don't want to change brokers, been with IB for 10 plus years and been using buttontrader frontend for most of that time too. Then again, IB could turn around tomorrow and say that no margin accounts are available to anyone or anything in Aus. Would be a lot of wasted effort and hassle if you converted to corporate trustee and that happened.
Worst case scenario would be IB quitting Australia altogether, I hope that doesn't happen. I can get by without margin I guess, if I had too, because most trading is futures and fx, but they might change the rules there too.
By the way, I don't know if this applies just to SMSF but I read somewhere that if the SMSF (which is just a trust really) has a corporate trustee and the only thing that company does is act as the trustee, then the annual fee is only something like $44, rather then $230.
it doesn't look like you can do an In specie/off market transfer of shares from an IB account in your own name to your SMSF account ( with IB), even though they are linked, because they don't share the same name.
can anyone confirm/deny/offer a way round it ?
thanks
you can have a IB margin account in the name of an SMSF. IB doesn't stop you and there is no rule saying an SMSF cannot have a margin account ( as long as it doesn't invest or trade stocks on margin because that is definitely prohibited by SMSF law).
So what is the point of that you ask? Well at IB you need to have a margin account to do various things that you are allowed to do in an SMSF but you cant do in an IB cash account . for example, iirc, writing options, buying foreign stocks.
However, big caveat - the standard IB customer agreement for a margin account has a clause in it that pledges all assets in the account to IB at the time of signing it, (not just if a trade requiring margin was actually taken). By my interpretation this contravenes sect 13.14 of the SISR. So read the CA carefully if you contemplate doing it.
My biggest frustration at the moment is waiting T3 to clear funds after selling some shares, this limits the amount of trades I can take. Does anyone know if you can bypass this with the margin account without using a margin? Or this deemed as trading on margin because the T3 happens in the background anyway? I think I just confused myself, hope this makes sense.
Share the frustration here also...... I am considering switching from a cash account to a margin account for SMSF to get around this T3 clearing issue; however I am concerned with the customer agreement where we need to pledge assets which contravenes the SIS act. That saying, the default cash account customer agreement also states that you need to pledge your assets. Note - the intention of switching is not to trade on margin!
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