Idle ciggie activists to tackle alcohol next?

McLovin · 23 January 2013

I knew it wouldn't take long for all the wowsers to come out of the woodwork.

Tink · 23 January 2013

Yes

Thats an excellent article dutchie.
Only the 26th? ... and the rest.

Logique · 23 January 2013

DocK said:
Agree that we need tougher consequences for alcohol-fuelled violence. I don't see any need for clubs etc to be open past 1am - nothing good happens after midnight. If you want to party on, do it in a private home. Transporting people from the nightclubs to their homes in a fast and affordable fashion would alleviate a lot of the brawls that occur due to intoxicated young adults wandering the streets in the early hours.

Agree with all but raising the drinking age - I don't think that would be practical, and should be unnecessary if the other measures were put into practice.

Personally I'd like to see much more pressure put on clubs/pubs to adhere to regulations re serving alcohol to drunks. I'd like to see much tougher legal consequences for violent and unruly behaviour. Sadly, I think quite a few younger people are already smashed on Red Bull & vodka and the like before they even head out for the night these days as they can't afford club prices - the attitude seems to be to get drunk first and then head out to dance and socialise. Often enhanced by pills.

The "Think before you Drink" ads that used to run on tv, showing some examples of poor decisions made due to the effects of alcohol, did get my teenagers' attention and at the very least got them thinking, and aware of the ability of alcohol to loosen inhibitions - often to one's later regret. As with a lot of unwelcome behaviour in society, a large part of the problem is young people mimicking their parents and their beliefs. If kids grow up seeing their parents drink responsibly, and families openly discuss the effects of alcohol in a truthful way, this would certainly help. Unfortunately, as the opposite is quite often the norm, I'd like to see a few more public health ads aimed at young adults on tv. If getting legless and behaving like a moron becomes "uncool" that would have far more effect than any legislation.

The old "Life Be In It" ads had a positive effect for a little while didn't they? Education rather than regulation is the key. You have to make people want to do something or change their ways - not simply tell them how they must behave.

Good comments DocK. Education rather than regulation, spot on.

DocK · 23 January 2013

McLovin said:
I knew it wouldn't take long for all the wowsers to come out of the woodwork.

I don't actually see myself that way at all. I'm not promoting restrictions on the sale of alcohol so far as packaging, taxing, availability etc - I'm just sick of not being able to go out at night in my own city for fear of being abused by the drunken hordes all over the streets. I'm tired of alcohol-fuelled violence becoming the "norm".

I've never pretended to my own kids that I didn't drink too much at times when I was much younger - that's what I meant by having truthful discussions with your kids. Taking a high moral tone and simply telling them not to do something that most of us have done at one point or another achieves nothing imo, but that doesn't mean you can't discuss the pitfalls of alcohol abuse, binge drinking, poor decision-making while under the influence etc. As an example, some parents I know encourage their daughters to stay together and never, ever, abandon one of their mates when out on the town. Safety in numbers, and hopefully someone to tell you to rein it in if you're getting a little too sloppy or aggressive.

As a parent I think it would be silly and unrealistic to think that my teenage boys will never in their lives get drunk and make idiots of themselves - it's what young men have always done and probably always will at one time or another - but that doesn't mean we shouldn't warn them to be aware of the increased liklihood of violent behaviour if they're doing their drinking in the wrong place, or with the wrong group of people. It also doesn't mean that we should be doing nothing to educate them of the health risks of binge drinking, or the new fad of mixing alcohol with energy drinks and the like. Seems to me that the fun has been lost and now it's all about getting as blotto as possible purely for the sake of it. Bring back the fun and let's lose the senseless violence is my point.

McLovin · 23 January 2013

DocK said:
I don't actually see myself that way at all.

DocK said:
I don't see any need for clubs etc to be open past 1am - nothing good happens after midnight.

Comments like that make you sound like one. If you don't want to be out past midnight then that's your perogative. Not everyone who stays out past midnight is sporting for a fight.

DocK said:
I'm not promoting restrictions on the sale of alcohol so far as packaging, taxing, availability etc - I'm just sick of not being able to go out at night in my own city for fear of being abused by the drunken hordes all over the streets. I'm tired of alcohol-fuelled violence becoming the "norm".

I have never been "abused by drunken hordes all over the streets". How many times has this happened to you?

Tink · 23 January 2013

I could tell a few stories....
If you dont think its happening, you are dreaming.

pixel · 23 January 2013

DocK said:
I don't actually see myself that way at all. I'm not promoting restrictions on the sale of alcohol so far as packaging, taxing, availability etc - I'm just sick of not being able to go out at night in my own city for fear of being abused by the drunken hordes all over the streets. I'm tired of alcohol-fuelled violence becoming the "norm".

I've never pretended to my own kids that I didn't drink too much at times when I was much younger - that's what I meant by having truthful discussions with your kids. Taking a high moral tone and simply telling them not to do something that most of us have done at one point or another achieves nothing imo, but that doesn't mean you can't discuss the pitfalls of alcohol abuse, binge drinking, poor decision-making while under the influence etc. As an example, some parents I know encourage their daughters to stay together and never, ever, abandon one of their mates when out on the town. Safety in numbers, and hopefully someone to tell you to rein it in if you're getting a little too sloppy or aggressive.

As a parent I think it would be silly and unrealistic to think that my teenage boys will never in their lives get drunk and make idiots of themselves - it's what young men have always done and probably always will at one time or another - but that doesn't mean we shouldn't warn them to be aware of the increased liklihood of violent behaviour if they're doing their drinking in the wrong place, or with the wrong group of people. It also doesn't mean that we should be doing nothing to educate them of the health risks of binge drinking, or the new fad of mixing alcohol with energy drinks and the like. Seems to me that the fun has been lost and now it's all about getting as blotto as possible purely for the sake of it. Bring back the fun and let's lose the senseless violence is my point.

100% with you , DocK
Where we lost it, it's at the family interface. If the parents don't know where their kids are late at night, it's no wonder when hordes turn up uninvited and gate-crash suburban birthday parties; scull-crash other kids, whose parents have done the right thing and try to supervise a fun celebration; pre-load at home before a night out, so they don't have to waste time and money when they get to a night spot, intent on mayhem.
Rather than blaming publicans and bar staff for the consequences, rather than forcing the innocent victims to take out costly insurance at spiraling premiums, let's hold the real culprits responsible. And if the Law is such an ass that it condones every crime a "Juvenile" commits, have his parents take out insurance. After all, I can't see the difference between keeping an untrained dangerous dog and letting an undisciplined kid run riot.

Calliope · 23 January 2013

McLovin said:
I knew it wouldn't take long for all the wowsers to come out of the woodwork.

This thread is degenerating into another "Alcohol Fueled Violence" thread. As I explained in that thread, alcohol drinking is part of our culture and there is nothing anyone can do to turn that around. Binge drinking is now considered a "rite of passage' with certificates issued for drunkenness and violence offences during schoolies week.

We knew that when the activists went after the smokers and we sat back and let it happen, that they would be coming after us next. However moderate wine drinkers are a force to be reckoned with.

McLovin · 23 January 2013

Tink said:
I could tell a few stories....
If you dont think its happening, you are dreaming.

Of course you could, so could I. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying the media makes it out to be worse than it is.

Calliope said:
We knew that when the activists went after the smokers and we sat back and let it happen, that they would be coming after us next. However moderate wine drinkers are a force to be reckoned with.

Of course. There's always someone who thnks they should control someone else's life. They used to be restricted to strata boards but now they seem to get a run in every level of government.

Tink · 23 January 2013

pixel said:
And if the Law is such an ass that it condones every crime a "Juvenile" commits, have his parents take out insurance. After all, I can't see the difference between keeping an untrained dangerous dog and letting an undisciplined kid run riot.

Agree Pixel, thats the next issue, take on the parents.
We have one case now where a child is dead.

The mother is an alcoholic, I want to see what happens to this offender who is a child, 18 yo

So whats your answer, McLovin?

McLovin · 23 January 2013

Tink said:
So whats your answer, McLovin?

Crack open another tinnie and let someone else worry about it.

Maybe accept that not everything has an answer.

Tink · 23 January 2013

Ahhhh shove it under the carpet until it affects your family?
Unreal...

McLovin · 23 January 2013

Tink said:
Ahhhh shove it under the carpet until it affects your family?
Unreal...

Speeding kills more people than alcohol related violence. Cars are not speed limited because thankfully the nanny state hasn't gotten to that stage, yet. Why do you assume that just because you can identify an issue it can be solved without trampling over the majority who do nothing wrong? I realise in the nanny state operating manual this is considered sensible, because anyone who hasn't risen to the lofty heights of the state parliament can't possibley be fit to look after themselves.

McLovin · 23 January 2013

McLovin]Crack open another tinnie and let someone else worry about it. Maybe accept that not everything has an answer. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Tink said:
Ahhhh shove it under the carpet until it affects your family?
Unreal...

Just to be clear, my remark was not in relation to the dead child you mentioned in your post, it was the more general subject of legislation around alcohol and that it is futile to try and control every outcome.

DocK · 23 January 2013

McLovin said:
Comments like that make you sound like one. If you don't want to be out past midnight then that's your perogative. Not everyone who stays out past midnight is sporting for a fight.

No, they're not, but the later the clubs are open the more violence on the street there seems to be. It wouldn't be such an issue if public transport was available to get everyone home, but it seems that if you're coming out of a nightclub at 3am you're far more likely to be drunk and stranded without transport than if you had to leave at 1am. I'm possibly a fair bit older than you, but when I was a young clubber we still managed to party on when the club shut if that's what we wanted to do, but we did it at someone's home.

McLovin said:
I have never been "abused by drunken hordes all over the streets". How many times has this happened to you?

I live on the Gold Coast, so no shortage of drunken hordes. I've only to take a drive around some of the hot spots to see several brawls, kids throwing up in gutters, kids nearly being run over while staggering across the highway etc.

Look, I'm not saying that all young people behave irresponsibly. I'm not advocating any changes in regulations. I'm simply saying that alcohol-fuelled misbehaviour seems to be on the increase in our society, and is more of a problem now than it ever has been so far as I can tell. I can't see how a bit of education about the effects of alcohol abuse could possibly hurt. And tougher penalties for violent offences (whether alcohol-fuelled or not) would be welcomed by a large section of society I'd bet.

McLovin · 23 January 2013

DocK said:
No, they're not, but the later the clubs are open the more violence on the street there seems to be. It wouldn't be such an issue if public transport was available to get everyone home, but it seems that if you're coming out of a nightclub at 3am you're far more likely to be drunk and stranded without transport than if you had to leave at 1am. I'm possibly a fair bit older than you, but when I was a young clubber we still managed to party on when the club shut if that's what we wanted to do, but we did it at someone's home.

I'm not disagreeing with you on that, but the regardless of the time, the overwhelming majority of people at clubs past 1am are not starting fights. And this is where I get annoyed, people want to take away my right to stay up late because a small minority don't play by the rules. If you asked me should pubs and clubs be stricter about enforcing not serving drunks, I'd say absolutely. You see people perching themselves against the bar because they can't stand up while they order a round of shots.

I get the feeling if young people started taking the party home with them it wouldn't be long until we had a "alcohol fuelled noise pollution" thread.

DocK said:
Look, I'm not saying that all young people behave irresponsibly. I'm not advocating any changes in regulations. I'm simply saying that alcohol-fuelled misbehaviour seems to be on the increase in our society, and is more of a problem now than it ever has been so far as I can tell.

Yes and the statistics back that up, but even as the rules have continued to become more draconian (lock outs, license scanning, no shots after 11, no more than four drinks at a time etc) the assault rate continues to climb. So you can either continue increasing the number of restrictions which is having no effect, or you admit it's not working and is just a cost to the taxpayer. The same can be said about drugs too. These sort of issues are a reflection of society not something that can be legislated away.

prawn_86 · 23 January 2013

McLovin said:
Yes and the statistics back that up, but even as the rules have continued to become more draconian (lock outs, license scanning, no shots after 11, no more than four drinks at a time etc) the assault rate continues to climb. So you can either continue increasing the number of restrictions which is having no effect, or you admit it's not working and is just a cost to the taxpayer. The same can be said about drugs too. These sort of issues are a reflection of society not something that can be legislated away.

+10^10

Shame its about being seen to be doing something to appease all those who dont see much further past the 6pm news, rather than actually looking at that stats and finances of the matters

pixel · 23 January 2013

Calliope said:
This thread is degenerating into another "Alcohol Fueled Violence" thread. As I explained in that thread, alcohol drinking is part of our culture and there is nothing anyone can do to turn that around. Binge drinking is now considered a "rite of passage' with certificates issued for drunkenness and violence offences during schoolies week.

We knew that when the activists went after the smokers and we sat back and let it happen, that they would be coming after us next. However moderate wine drinkers are a force to be reckoned with.

"Include me out", Calliope;
I have nothing against a drink or five. I also strongly object to the wowser brigade telling everybody what not to do, simply because a few idiots can't handle personal freedom.

Alcohol is "out there", freely available to everybody. Rules are already in place, wrt who can and who can't buy it. But it seems nobody really cares to make sure they're enforced - how else is it possible that under-age kids get blotto at "schoolies".
Prohibition doesn't work: look what good it's done in America! The only approach that does work is teaching and enforcing responsibility and self-discipline.
Of course, we all got blotted on occasion - both before and after we were "allowed" a drink. As a consequence, a few hours of my life are missing from memory. But once I woke up a day or week later, I knew it was my responsibility to clean up any mess and pay for repairs.

In contrast to today, I guess that "We wuz brung up proper." :
(Which is essentially the way I interpret McLovin's and prawn's latest exchange as well.)

PS: Nearly forgot the one thing I'm dead-set AGAINST. And that is the subtle and not so subtle advertising of alcoholic lolly-water to juveniles. The tiny 2-second footnote "Enjoy in moderation" is a joke. As is any association of alcohol and success - on the sporting field, in the bedroom, or anywhere in between.

Julia · 23 January 2013

McLovin said:
Speeding kills more people than alcohol related violence. Cars are not speed limited because thankfully the nanny state hasn't gotten to that stage, yet. Why do you assume that just because you can identify an issue it can be solved without trampling over the majority who do nothing wrong? I realise in the nanny state operating manual this is considered sensible, because anyone who hasn't risen to the lofty heights of the state parliament can't possibly be fit to look after themselves.

+1. Unless you want to live in a society like North Korea, there will always be societal problems of various types, simply because some people are irresponsible, poorly educated, genetically lacking and have been raised in families where all this is the norm.

Of course sensible parents will have sensible discussions with their basically sensible children about the dangers of excessive consumption of alcohol.

But no amount of attempts at education will make any significant difference to those whose ignorance and lack of ambition in life consigns them to the reassurance of being part of a group whose main focus is blotting out the miserable reality of their existence with alcohol.

Most of them grow out of it in due course.

So, for heaven's sake, let's remind ourselves of the title of this thread, i.e. that there is always that core activist group who feel obliged to jump up and down about something. We should not be trampling on the rights of the majority in a hopeless attempt to ameliorate the idiocy of a few.

If the nanny state extends its talons much further, it will not be long before we will have to seek permission before breathing.

MrBurns · 23 January 2013

DocK said:
And tougher penalties for violent offences (whether alcohol-fuelled or not) would be welcomed by a large section of society I'd bet.

For sure.

You can target these idiots without disrupting the average punter.

Up the penalties , even for being drunk in a public place, breathalyse them before they make trouble.

Target the venues for selling grog to drunks.

Idle ciggie activists to tackle alcohol next?

McLovin

Tink

Logique

Investor

DocK

McLovin

Tink

pixel

DIY Trader

Calliope

McLovin

Tink

McLovin

Tink

McLovin

McLovin

DocK

McLovin

prawn_86

Mod: Call me Dendrobranchiata

pixel

DIY Trader

Julia

In Memoriam

MrBurns

Similar threads

Idle ciggie activists to tackle alcohol next?

Investor

DIY Trader

Mod: Call me Dendrobranchiata

DIY Trader

In Memoriam

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency