ICU - Investor Centre

Re: FWL - Ferrowest Limited

danewbee said:

You are the only one that following the rules, no personal attack, no name calling although I pay no attention to this kind of noise.

YOu might consider this:

Situation A: Grade 1% with 50 times as much resources
Situation B: Grade 50%

According to your study, the capex per tonnne would be the same.

How about Opex?

It is very clear, FWL will not make good money being an iron ore producer for the reason of low grade ore, which need spending more money to process to higher grade for sell, or iron and steel making.

In stead, the company comes up with an idea of pig iron plant to justify the business case. It could be very successful, and could be a totally failure.

It will be fine if you understand the risk, It is not a blue sky. The management need to prove the capability to handle both mining business and pig iron making business. Otherwise, just remember, there are handreds of pig iron plants in China, Korea, and Japan, if not thousands. What is your advantage over them? And who want more pollution near their backyard?

This is why most iron ore companies, like BHP, RIO, FMG, MGX send most of their ore to China, Korea, and Japan, not to build more plants on Australian soil.

Good luck with FWL holding. I promise this is my last post if there is no more name calling.

Click to expand...

Originally Posted by danewbee
25.3% Fe grade? Even considered as poor grade in China. By Australian standard, it is waste, not ore. Try to upgrade it into 65%, you need at least 3t of ore to get 1t of sellable products. The mining and processing cost will be huge.

As you stated above you need to move “3t of ore to get 1t of sellable products” , shipping that would incur a high cost that clearly the company has taken into account hence the merchant pig iron.
This is stated in their announcement “

The ITmk3 ® technology produces merchant pig iron (“MPI”) in the form of 96%Fe iron nuggets that are very easy to handle, store and transport. It is also a premium product for end users (primarily electric arc furnace steel makers) due to its very low contaminant levels and high storage density. “

http://www.ferrowest.com.au/Announcements/2007/ASX Announcement ITmk3 Developments 20June07.pdf

Also point taken, but they have four backup technologies after ITmk3, so they aren’t playing around, shows good management.

Originally Posted by danewbee
“The management need to prove the capability to handle both mining business and pig iron making business”

hope that helps with your questions since you obviously don’t read the announcements.

Re: FWL - Ferrowest Limited

Here's an appropriate article from CSIRO (The Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation), which underlines the thought processes behind Ferrowest's Yalgoo project:

What this means for Ferrowest (and I don't think this has ever really disputed by those who have done their research), is that Yalgoo is a risky, yet extremely high reward play).

It's not free money, but then again, what is?

Billion-dollar bounty through processing alternative ores

With a booming iron-ore market and diminishing stocks of high-grade ore, Australian researchers are investigating technologies to ensure cost-effective production of alternative ores.

The Australian iron-ore industry is on the cusp of a major transformation.
As the high-grade Brockman ores that have underpinned the industry are depleted, alternative ores need to be processed to meet future market demands.

Over the next few years, demand for Australian iron ore is expected to rise by more than 200 million tonnes a year, potentially bringing billion-dollar benefits to an industry already worth more than A$10 billion in annual exports.


The role of research

Research conducted by CSIRO through both the Minerals Down Under initiative and the Wealth from Australian Ores research theme will be an important feature of the industry’s future.

Ralph Holmes, CSIRO Minerals Iron Ore Processing Program Manager, believes that targeted research will help create suitable cost-effective technologies to process lower-grade hematite/goethite ores found in alternative or 'new' orebodies.

'Technology needs to be developed to process these lower-grade ores and improve their quality,' says Dr Holmes. 'Australia faces losing market share to Brazil and becoming a low-quality iron-ore producer.'

'The known high-grade iron-ore resources remaining in Western Australia are about one billion tonnes at 64 per cent iron. In contrast, Brazil has 17 billion tonnes at 66.5 per cent iron in the Carajas region of the Amazon basin alone.'


Processing challenges

Economic and efficient processing of lower-grade ores will be crucial to the industry's future sustainability, but poses challenges in ore characterisation, maximising lump production, beneficiation and dewatering, and understanding the sintering characteristics of the processed ore and environmental constraints.

Efficient beneficiation processes that minimise iron loss, while removing alumina and silica will be required. If wet beneficiation is needed, economic dewatering and drying can be a major problem due to the high porosity of the lower-grade ores.

Although Australia’s new iron ore resources create challenges, their potential export value makes meeting these challenges worthwhile.


Treating fine ore

Maximising lump production is also important as alternative ores are highly hydrated and friable and produce less lump ore in comparison to traditional ore.

Inevitably the proportion of fines produced will steadily increase because of the friable nature of the new ores, so blast furnace burdens will contain increasing percentages of iron-ore agglomerates, such as sinter and pellets.

'Therefore, understanding the sintering characteristics of these new ores and their interaction with other ore types used in sinter blends around the world is important, as is finding ways of counteracting the adverse effect of increasing alumina content on sinter quality and productivity,' says Dr Holmes.


High phosphorus ores

Another serious problem is the phosphorus content of Australian iron ores.
'There are huge deposits of high-phosphorus Brockman ore in Western Australia that are close to existing infrastructure; however the high phosphorus levels make them more difficult to sell except in boom times,' says Dr Holmes.

Physical separation processes can remove some of the phosphorus, but substantial iron is lost in the process. Alternative approaches, such as heat treatment and leaching, are currently considered uneconomic, with the best option being to remove the phosphorus at the hot metal stage. This pushes the cost of removal onto the customer, although iron ore prices can be adjusted to take account of the additional process step.


Magnetite resources

Increasing worldwide demand for iron ore is also triggering the development of Australia’s magnetite resources and the production of iron-ore pellets. A better understanding of the mineralogy and processing characteristics of these ores and development of energy-efficient grinding methods could be critical to their profitability.


Potential value

Although Australia’s new iron ore resources create challenges, they also generate huge potential. Exploitation of the high phosphorus iron ore deposits in the Pilbara is a major prize.

Dr Holmes says, 'At current iron ore prices of about A$50 per tonne, the export value of these deposits alone is of the order A$350 billion. On a similar basis, unlocking Australia's largely untapped magnetite resources and production of iron ore pellets for export would potentially generate export revenue of about A$230 billion.'

Re: FWL - Ferrowest Limited

doctorj said:

I also deleted a couple of your posts for the type of noise you talk about. Let he without sin etc etc.

Your logic does not follow. Making less money than you would if it were a higher grade is entirely different to not making money. You're yet to present any information about why "FWL will not good money". You state it as fact without any analysis to support. This is why your posts have upset the locals. By all means challenge the status quo, but back it up with supporting evidence/calculations, not just gross, incorrect generalisations that might wash on Hotcopper but simply won't here.

I don't hold FWL and never have.

Click to expand...

OK, you win because you can silence my voice. Go check the history of MGK in the past couple years, you will understand what I am coming from.

Re: FWL - Ferrowest Limited

At the end of the day what matters is the bottomline profit when it comes to sharetrading. The way I see it, just a few weeks ago Young Trader picked this stock whilst it was in the mid 20s. Since then its more than tripled. If he hadn't shared his wisdom with us many traders would have missed out on this opportunity. I did not buy any at the time, but definitely should have. I was preoccupied with other matters.
The iron ore sector is starting to run hot and IMO it may only get hotter. Strong runs in other resource sectors have lasted for a while. I don't think iron ore will be the exception. The beauty of it is that the ordinary person in the street is still fixated with uranium stocks whilst a lot of the smarter money is being placed into iron ore stocks. IMO that means that there's plenty enough left on the table. Historically, often its the time to become more cautious when the average smo starts buying.
DYOR

Re: FWL - Ferrowest Limited

Nice broadcast. But it seems no one like it. Good news is: no one hates it. . So it still holds.

Re: FWL - Ferrowest Limited

Looks like alot of profit taking today,

Was bound to happen given the steep rise,

The Audio broadcast stirred a bit of interest in the morning I think

Worth a listen

Re: FWL - Ferrowest Limited

YOUNG_TRADER said:

Looks like alot of profit taking today,

Was bound to happen given the steep rise,

The Audio broadcast stirred a bit of interest in the morning I think

Worth a listen

Click to expand...

Real low volume thought YT.

Due to the small amount of shares on offer, this stock is prone to big SP movements on small volume.

I wonder what the PFS, on the increased resource size, will do for the SP?

Re: FWL - Ferrowest Limited

Yeah, bound to happen, but agreed, pretty low volumes. I think the fact that probably 8 or so million were purchased above 50c in the last 2 weeks should provide a short term support. Those holding, or those who can afford to hold will be waiting for the pre feas.

And given its volatility, thats when it has the potential to move up quickly again.

Im free carrying, so i'll give it a good while yet. Im very impressed with the management and their focus.

Re: FWL - Ferrowest Limited

YOUNG_TRADER said:

Looks like alot of profit taking today,

Was bound to happen given the steep rise,

The Audio broadcast stirred a bit of interest in the morning I think

Worth a listen

Click to expand...

YT, we have good argument over CUL. It ended with kind of agree with your updated analysis (more conservative buy more realistic), the share price has a good run in the last couple days. No damage is done, but help.

I urge you to recheck FWL's analysis because I am not convinced about the pig iron hype. BHP has tried it, and gove up. And Check another sad story about MGK, with big plan on producing Mn, only have found nobody is willing to lend money. its share price dropped from $2+ to 7c recently in less than 2 years. It is out of the league of small mining company to do the downstream.

Same question, everyone is try to avoid answering: Who FWL with very low grade ore want to produce pig iron, while none of the others with much higher grade prefer to ship it to Asia? So the management team's capability should be careful checked.

Technical indicator is very weak too. There are twice as much sellers as buyers.

Re: FWL - Ferrowest Limited

"Good luck with FWL holding. I promise this is my last post if there is no more name calling."

Geez Danewbee, we were all very nice since then, so i guess that was a "non core promise".

I'll say it again, FWL will be attempting to utilise new technologies to convert magnetite ore to a high grade, value added product. Check out the price per tonne of merchant pig iron, its nothing to scoff at by any means. Its a spec stock, and we all know, or should know that it comes with risks. But it also comes with a potential upside. In FWL's case, it could be substantial. If you have any doubt, check out any of YT's analysis.

The only thing i can take from your negative posts is that you want to buy in at a lower price, because you havent yet added any new information.

Re: FWL - Ferrowest Limited

Interesting day for FWL. I noticed a few 10k orders on the buy side in the 50's 65 cents has gone which looked like it was becoming support...stopped out now

danewbee, what are your thoughts on the PFS due this month? if any?

Re: FWL - Ferrowest Limited

Ruprect said:

"Good luck with FWL holding. I promise this is my last post if there is no more name calling."

Geez Danewbee, we were all very nice since then, so i guess that was a "non core promise".

I'll say it again, FWL will be attempting to utilise new technologies to convert magnetite ore to a high grade, value added product. Check out the price per tonne of merchant pig iron, its nothing to scoff at by any means. Its a spec stock, and we all know, or should know that it comes with risks. But it also comes with a potential upside. In FWL's case, it could be substantial. If you have any doubt, check out any of YT's analysis.

The only thing i can take from your negative posts is that you want to buy in at a lower price, because you havent yet added any new information.

Click to expand...

Keeping say I didn't add much new, what you have added? Do me a favor, go head, answer my question to YT.

I don't want to discuss with you about a promise. (I did not break my promise anyway, and I don't want to talk about it)

It is about the fact, try to answer my question. The blue sky stuff is everywhere, you don't need to repeat it here.

Do not fool by new technology terms, new methods. To be honest, I don't know anything about the technology, I doubt you know much either. If you and me can understand it, it is not a technology that can make FWL rich.

The simplest way of thinking is why FWL want to do it, while everybody else don't? To me the key is the management team, can they pull this off? or just hype the idea of pig iron to cover its shortcoming of low grade iron ore?

If the technology is not owned exclusively by FWL, so everybody else can produce pig iron, and make tons of money, far more than digging, and shipping. Why they don't do it? We could produce all kind of pig iron from coast to coast, why we don't? We we let the Asians to cut the biggest slice of the pie? Are the rest of iron ore companies stupid, include BHP, RIO, GBG, MGX, CFE, PMM.

This is not about get even, or spoil a party. It is about to provide a different view for discuss and think. Don't like it ignore it. Cannot answer my question, don't wasting time to write something irrelevant, or try to silence me.

And final words, do you put your money where you mouth is?

Re: FWL - Ferrowest Limited

danewbee said:

Keeping say I didn't add much new, what you have added? Do me a favor, go head, answer my question to YT.

I don't want to discuss with you about a promise. (I did not break my promise anyway, and I don't want to talk about it)

It is about the fact, try to answer my question. The blue sky stuff is everywhere, you don't need to repeat it here.

Do not fool by new technology terms, new methods. To be honest, I don't know anything about the technology, I doubt you know much either. If you and me can understand it, it is not a technology that can make FWL rich.

The simplest way of thinking is why FWL want to do it, while everybody else don't? To me the key is the management team, can they pull this off? or just hype the idea of pig iron to cover its shortcoming of low grade iron ore?

If the technology is not owned exclusively by FWL, so everybody else can produce pig iron, and make tons of money, far more than digging, and shipping. Why they don't do it? We could produce all kind of pig iron from coast to coast, why we don't? We we let the Asians to cut the biggest slice of the pie? Are the rest of iron ore companies stupid, include BHP, RIO, GBG, MGX, CFE, PMM.

This is not about get even, or spoil a party. It is about to provide a different view for discuss and think. Don't like it ignore it. Cannot answer my question, don't wasting time to write something irrelevant, or try to silence me.

And final words, do you put your money where you mouth is?

Click to expand...

Danewbee,

You seem to be trying to pick a personal battle with YT. I'll leave you to it.

However, regarding your the issue about new technologies, Ferrowest is not the first to be looking at ITmk3, and even if they were..so what? Everything starts somewhere.

Have a read of this article, which explains the alliance between Kobe steel's (developer of ITmk3) and Cleveland Cliffs.

Please note the following, and we'll see you back here afterwards for your comments:

ITmk3 (pronounced "Eye-Tee Mark Three") is an innovative technology that provides a flexible and environmentally friendly process for producing iron nuggets. Consisting of 96% to 97% iron and 2.5% to 3.0% carbon, the iron nuggets are equivalent in quality to blast furnace pig iron.

About the ITmk3 Process

* In the ITmk3 Process, iron ore fines and pulverized coal are formed into solid "green" or raw pellets. These pellets are fed into a rotary hearth furnace and heated to 1,300-1,450 degrees C. At this temperature range, the pellets are reduced and melted, enabling the iron to cleanly separate from the slag.

* The ironmaking process takes only about 10 minutes. In comparison, blast furnace ironmaking takes 8 hours, while direct reduction can take 6 hours.

* The resulting product is iron in nugget form. The iron nuggets can then be fed to melting furnaces for refining into steel.

* Energy efficient and environmentally friendly, the ITmk3 Process emits 20% less carbon dioxide than blast furnace operations.

* Capital investment is projected at roughly half the cost of conventional ironmaking technologies. On the same scale, initial capital investment of an ITmk3 plant is estimated to be about half the initial investment cost of a blast furnace with associated facilities, including coke ovens as well as oxygen generation and supply equipment.

Re: FWL - Ferrowest Limited

danewbee said:

YT, we have good argument over CUL. It ended with kind of agree with your updated analysis (more conservative buy more realistic), the share price has a good run in the last couple days. No damage is done, but help.

I urge you to recheck FWL's analysis because I am not convinced about the pig iron hype. BHP has tried it, and gove up. And Check another sad story about MGK, with big plan on producing Mn, only have found nobody is willing to lend money. its share price dropped from $2+ to 7c recently in less than 2 years. It is out of the league of small mining company to do the downstream.

Same question, everyone is try to avoid answering: Who FWL with very low grade ore want to produce pig iron, while none of the others with much higher grade prefer to ship it to Asia? So the management team's capability should be careful checked.

Technical indicator is very weak too. There are twice as much sellers as buyers.

Click to expand...

I think u're out of control dude, by comparing MGK (Magnesium) with FWL (iron). Can you explain to me what's the differrent between Magnesium Technology and ITmk3 ® iron-making Technology.

Cleveland-Cliffs Inc is a world leader in the mining and processing of iron ore in US, please read their announcement if you have doubt about ITmk3 ® Technology. http://www.cleveland-cliffs.com/

Commenting on the new alliance, Cliffs Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer Joseph A. Carrabba stated: "One of Cliffs' major strategic initiatives is to sustain its leadership position in pioneering processes related to metallics. By constructing a commercial-scale facility that will produce iron in nearly pure form, we will further that mission and be able to offer North America's non-integrated steel mills a consistently available and very high-quality domestic metallic feed, which is similar in quality to imported pig iron. Moreover, as Cliffs currently sells the majority of its pellets to integrated steel companies in North America, this opportunity has the potential to open a new market.

We have been very interested in this technology since successfully testing the process in a pilot plant located at our Northshore facility. The alliance with Kobe moves us closer to realizing our mutual goal of commercializing and exploiting this innovative process."

The Company also announced that the two parties have agreed to participate on a joint-venture basis as strategic equity partners in a 500,000 ton per annum iron nugget facility to be constructed at one of Cliffs' United States mining properties. The timing of this project and the site location will ultimately depend on permitting issues.

Re: FWL - Ferrowest Limited

danewbee said:

Same question, everyone is try to avoid answering: Who FWL with very low grade ore want to produce pig iron, while none of the others with much higher grade prefer to ship it to Asia?

Click to expand...

Perhaps you could pose your question that everyone is try to avoid answering to the FWL management and then post that reply on this forum.

WE ALL AWAIT YOUR REPLY.....DA:newbie:

Re: FWL - Ferrowest Limited

INORE said:

danewbee said:

Same question, everyone is try to avoid answering: Who FWL with very low grade ore want to produce pig iron, while none of the others with much higher grade prefer to ship it to Asia?

Click to expand...

Perhaps you could pose your question that everyone is try to avoid answering to the FWL management and then post that reply on this forum.

WE ALL AWAIT YOUR REPLY.....DA:newbie:

Click to expand...

Yes I think the PFS will hold all the answers we seek, which should include the ore concentrate sample dispatched to Kobe Steel. This will prove the feasibility of the tech and the mine, in the mean time I will hold.

Re: FWL - Ferrowest Limited

danewbee said:

Do not fool by new technology terms, new methods. To be honest, I don't know anything about the technology, I doubt you know much either. If you and me can understand it, it is not a technology that can make FWL rich.

The simplest way of thinking is why FWL want to do it, while everybody else don't? To me the key is the management team, can they pull this off? or just hype the idea of pig iron to cover its shortcoming of low grade iron ore?

If the technology is not owned exclusively by FWL, so everybody else can produce pig iron, and make tons of money, far more than digging, and shipping. Why they don't do it? We could produce all kind of pig iron from coast to coast, why we don't? We we let the Asians to cut the biggest slice of the pie? Are the rest of iron ore companies stupid, include BHP, RIO, GBG, MGX, CFE, PMM

And final words, do you put your money where you mouth is?

Click to expand...

Danewbee,
I fail to see your point? Weather FWL come thorough with the goods has no real impact on me/my wallet. How many ASF'ers out there are actually long on this specie?
Where you fortunate enougth to partake in a trade on FWL during it's recent run?

Re: FWL - Ferrowest Limited

Pat said:

Danewbee,
I fail to see your point? Weather FWL come thorough with the goods has no real impact on me/my wallet. How many ASF'ers out there are actually long on this specie?
Where you fortunate enougth to partake in a trade on FWL during it's recent run?

Click to expand...

His point is to down-ramp every stock that YT has picked.

I suspect he is the same guy on hot copper whose coincidently just started doing the exact same thing, at the same time as this guy.

Already added him to ignore - suggest you do the same.

Re: FWL - Ferrowest Limited

to be honest, FWL SP now is down and down. Can anyone tell me why? Becuase the low grade of Fe? Though the volume is tiny

Re: FWL - Ferrowest Limited

alanding said:

to be honest, FWL SP now is down and down. Can anyone tell me why? Becuase the low grade of Fe? Though the volume is tiny

Click to expand...

although at low volume, there is a huge gap between the buy n sell depth, dissapointing to see this one going down like this.