Hydrogen

[sptrawler]

Imagine this in the tank behind your seat

Kind of explains why 5kg of H2 gets a car 600km and 60kg of petrol gets the same distance.

 

[basilio]

This story takes some beating. A Hong Kong company has developed a product called Si plus which release hydrogen when it is mixed with water.

That simple. A silicon powder which produces pure hydrogen when mixed with water.

For real ? Or just a giant con. ?

Overview​

Our Group (EPRO Advance Technology Limited and its subsidiaries)
provides renewable energy solutions that will power the future. We have
developed an array of energy-efficient, eco-friendly products that both store
and produce clean energy. One of the company’s principal products, silicon
material (Si+), can be used as anodic material for rechargeable lithium-ion
batteries, increasing the energy densities of current state-of-the-art batteries
by more than 30%. Si+ can generate Hydrogen energy on-demand through
our engineered and manufactured Si+ Hydrogen Modules.

Our History dates back to 2003, when Lau Lee Cheung, Executive
Director and Chairman, and Albert Lau, Executive Director and CEO,
built a lab in Shaoguan, Guangdong, PRC. Initial research focused on
materials for solar panels, especially ways to reduce high purity quartz ore
via electrolysis. After years of effort, we developed a process to produce
a silicon material whose uses greatly exceeds our earlier projects.

About | EPRO Advance Technology

Our Group (EPRO Advance Technology Limited and its subsidiaries) provides renewable energy solutions that will power the future. We have developed an array of energy-efficient, eco-friendly products that both store and produce clean energy.

www.epro-atech.com

EPRO Avanced Technology - Crucial Breakthrough in Hydrogen Energy Generation, Storage and Transportation Announced - Hydrogen Central

EPRO Avanced Technology - crucial breakthrough in hydrogen energy generation, storage and transportation announced.

hydrogen-central.com

 

[moXJO]

Imagine this in the tank behind your seat

The energy difference though

 

[mullokintyre]

Rio has started the war on hydrogen.

From The evil Murdoch press
Rio Tinto’s chief scientist has fired a shot across the bows of companies and governments banking on green hydrogen “hype” as a solution to global warming, saying the company does not see hydrogen as a serious alternative to fossil fuels as an export commodity.
Speaking at Rio’s London investor day on Wednesday, Rio chief scientist Nigel Steward said the company did not believe hydrogen could be used as an “energy carrier” in the near future, given its production costs and problems with shipping it around the globe.

“Hydrogen is much hyped, particularly as an energy carrier. We don’t see hydrogen as being used as an energy carrier,” he said.
Mr Steward’s comments fly in the face of the ambitions of Andrew Forrest’s Fortescue Metals Group, which plans to spend billions in the hope of turning green hydrogen into a major seaborne commodity.

But the Rio chief scientist warned investors that recent research suggested that direct shipping of hydrogen at scale could even exacerbate global warming.

“If we want to use hydrogen as an energy carrier, and we‘re going to transport it around the world as liquid hydrogen, that’s problematic because 1 per cent of the hydrogen per day is lost to the atmosphere,” he said.

“Recent studies have shown that hydrogen actually has a global warming potential five to 16 times greater than carbon dioxide. So what this means is it is better to burn natural gas than it is to transport hydrogen around the world and then consume that later.”

Fortescue and other hydrogen hopefuls have said they plan to tackle the issue of energy loss in transporting liquid hydrogen by instead producing ammonia as a means to transport the commodity. But that would require additional chemical processes that would use even more energy, making its use less efficient.

Mr Steward said Rio believed hydrogen could have a major role to play in global energy transition, but said the mining giant believed it was best consumed where it was produced.

“We see hydrogen being used for its unique chemical properties. As a reducing agent for production of green steel, as a reducing agent for ilmenite in the smelting process to make iron and titanium, and also as a source of energy for calcining alumina in our refineries,” he said.

I am always a little wary of any statement that quotes 'recent studies have shown" without a link to these recent studies.
Mick

 

[Value Collector]

Rio has started the war on hydrogen.

I am always a little wary of any statement that quotes 'recent studies have shown" without a link to these recent studies.
Mick

Is this the same Rio Tinto that back in 2005 told the Media that Fortescue’s Iron Ore deposits were low grade waste and nothing but a “bag of rusty nails” and that anyone who invested in them would lose their money ?.

They failed to see how profitable mining Iron Ore using surface miners could be, and mining was literally their thing. So I don’t have full confidence that they can make sound assessments on energy investments.

Rio left a lot of money on the table when they left all the lower grade iron ore tenements to FMG, maybe they are doing it again, only time with tell.

 

[Craton]

Rio has started the war on hydrogen.

I am always a little wary of any statement that quotes 'recent studies have shown" without a link to these recent studies.
Mick

Google Fu: GWP = Global Warming Potential

“We estimate the hydrogen GWP(100) [ie, over a 100-year period] to be 11 ± 5; a value more than 100% larger than previously published calculations.”
In other words, the study says the GWP figure is somewhere between six and 16, with 11 being the average — whereas the GWP of CO2 is one. A previous study from 2001, which has been frequently cited ever since, put the GWP of hydrogen at 5.8.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Rio has started the war on hydrogen.

I am always a little wary of any statement that quotes 'recent studies have shown" without a link to these recent studies.
Mick

I must admit that any engineers with whom I have spoken have said the same as Nigel Steward, RIO's chief scientist, about Hydrogen as an alternate fuel.

It is labile, difficult to produce without high energy or gaseous input, difficult to transport and overall "problematic" as opposed to wind, solar or battery power.

I sold FMG recently and will buy again when the price plummets and sell again when it goes up.

I have held RIO for eons, and will hold until it eventually transfers in to my deceased estate.

Good luck to Twiggy if he pulls a rabbit out of the hat but Steward is just stating the evidence based view of Hydrogen as a fuel minus the hype.

And I agree @Value Collector all the iron ore companies bollock each other to get an edge, but Steward's opinion is widely held.

And no, I don't have references but will ask the Hydrogen, Oxygen and Water Committee at the hotel to look in to it.

gg

 

[sptrawler]

I agree that FMG's foray into hydrogen isn't without risk, but as with any new industry it is those that move early who gain the advantage if there is any rapid take up and upscaling on the World stage.
As I posted in another thread, the legacy car makers Vs Tesla as an example.
Wind and solar are very intermittent, even in countries like Australia which are endowed with both, some countries due to geography have very little access to solar and their population densities require a lot of energy, so options are limited e.g Japan.

Those who are late to the party can find themselves wallowing around trying to find traction, from memory Rio didn't do too well with their investment in aluminium, something like a AU$20bn loss if my memory serves me correctly.
So Rio probably is just passing on a word of caution, which may be very well founded.

Rio's US$14bn hit foreshadows other mining writedowns - The Namibian

LONDON/SYDNEY - Mining firms including BHP Billiton and Anglo American are likely to follow Rio Tinto's lead in writing down underperforming assets by as much as US$10 billion, as low prices and

www.namibian.com.na

As for the technical aspects of using hydrogen as fuel, it isn't a new concept and has been used on some very technically challenging projects.

Since its inception in 1958, NASA has been harnessing the unique properties of hydrogen to conduct missions. NASA's hydrogen and fuel cell technologies are used for many purposes. NASA has relied upon hydrogen gas as rocket fuel to deliver crew and cargo to space.

Apollo 11, the first to land on the moon, housed three hydrogen fuel cells. Apollo 11's hydrogen fuel cell, capable of producing up to 2,300W per unit, generated electricity to operate countless devices in spacecraft, and the power generation provided most of the water for astronauts' needs

A major component of the STS-1 Space Shuttle launch vehicle was the disposable external tank containing liquid hydrogen fuel and liquid oxygen oxidiser. This tank acted as the “backbone” of the space shuttle and supplied the fuel and oxidiser to the orbiter's three main engines during lift-off and ascent

 

[Sean K]

This could go in a few threads. Might as well be here. Sounds interesting.

 

[Sean K]

Sorry if you can't get the link through the paywall.

There seems to be quite a few headings like this popping up.

(not sure if there's some agendas being driven)




Rio Tinto’s chief scientist has fired a shot across the bows of companies and governments banking on green hydrogen “hype” as a solution to global warming, saying the company does not see hydrogen as a serious alternative to fossil fuels as an export commodity.

Speaking at Rio’s London investor day on Wednesday, Rio chief scientist Nigel Steward said the company did not believe hydrogen could be used as an “energy carrier” in the near future, given its production costs and problems with shipping it around the globe.

“Hydrogen is much hyped, particularly as an energy carrier. We don’t see hydrogen as being used as an energy carrier,” he said.

Mr Steward’s comments fly in the face of the ambitions of Andrew Forrest’s Fortescue Metals Group, which plans to spend billions in the hope of turning green hydrogen into a major seaborne commodity.

But the Rio chief scientist warned investors that recent research suggested that direct shipping of hydrogen at scale could even exacerbate global warming.

“If we want to use hydrogen as an energy carrier, and we‘re going to transport it around the world as liquid hydrogen, that’s problematic because 1 per cent of the hydrogen per day is lost to the atmosphere,” he said.

 

[sptrawler]

Toyota is still working on a hydrogen fueled ICE vehicle. As opposed to the normal Hydrogen/ fuel cell variant.

Toyota Corolla Cross prototype gains hydrogen-fuelled GR Yaris engine

A hydrogen-fuelled GR Yaris engine has been fitted to a Toyota Corolla Cross SUV.

www.drive.com.au

From the article:
A Toyota Corolla Cross prototype has been unveiled with a turbocharged hydrogen internal-combustion engine developed from a hot hatch.
The cars run just like normal and can be filled in a similar way to a petrol or diesel vehicle, but the only tailpipe emission is water vapour.

The Corolla Cross is the latest to be tested with the technology, following the development of a GR Corolla hatchback racing car in early 2021 which is powered by a hydrogen-powered 1.6-litre turbocharged three-cylinder engine – the petrol version of which is found in the GR Yaris and GR Corolla.
Toyota President Akio Toyoda drove the hydrogen-fuelled GR Corolla at all Super Taikyu endurance races in Japan this year, competing under his pseudonym 'Morizo'.
Through its development of the racing car, the company says it was able to increase power from the hydrogen engine by 24 per cent and torque by 33 per cent over the course of the season, while driving range has seen a 30 per cent improvement.

Mr Toyoda also spent time behind the wheel of a hydrogen-fuelled GR Yaris rally car at the Belgium round of the World Rally Championship in August, sharing the driving duties with four-time rally champion Juha Kankkunen.

Toyota's development of the technology through its involvement in motorsports has also resulted in refuelling times reducing from roughly five minutes to just 90 seconds.
Toyota is also working with long-time Japanese engineering partner Yamaha to develop a 5.0-litre V8 engine fuelled with hydrogen, with unsubstantiated media reports from February suggesting the engine could eventually be fitted to a LandCruiser 300 Series.

 

[Sean K]

Toyota is still working on a hydrogen fueled ICE vehicle. As opposed to the normal Hydrogen/ fuel cell variant.

Toyota Corolla Cross prototype gains hydrogen-fuelled GR Yaris engine

A hydrogen-fuelled GR Yaris engine has been fitted to a Toyota Corolla Cross SUV.

www.drive.com.au

From the article:
A Toyota Corolla Cross prototype has been unveiled with a turbocharged hydrogen internal-combustion engine developed from a hot hatch.
The cars run just like normal and can be filled in a similar way to a petrol or diesel vehicle, but the only tailpipe emission is water vapour.

The Corolla Cross is the latest to be tested with the technology, following the development of a GR Corolla hatchback racing car in early 2021 which is powered by a hydrogen-powered 1.6-litre turbocharged three-cylinder engine – the petrol version of which is found in the GR Yaris and GR Corolla.
Toyota President Akio Toyoda drove the hydrogen-fuelled GR Corolla at all Super Taikyu endurance races in Japan this year, competing under his pseudonym 'Morizo'.
Through its development of the racing car, the company says it was able to increase power from the hydrogen engine by 24 per cent and torque by 33 per cent over the course of the season, while driving range has seen a 30 per cent improvement.

Mr Toyoda also spent time behind the wheel of a hydrogen-fuelled GR Yaris rally car at the Belgium round of the World Rally Championship in August, sharing the driving duties with four-time rally champion Juha Kankkunen.

Toyota's development of the technology through its involvement in motorsports has also resulted in refuelling times reducing from roughly five minutes to just 90 seconds.
Toyota is also working with long-time Japanese engineering partner Yamaha to develop a 5.0-litre V8 engine fuelled with hydrogen, with unsubstantiated media reports from February suggesting the engine could eventually be fitted to a LandCruiser 300 Series.

So, what's the rub with mass producing this stuff and mass transporting it around the globe for mass use?

 

[sptrawler]

So, what's the rub with mass producing this stuff and mass transporting it around the globe for mass use?

As with everything, the cost of production and the difficulty of transporting, but they are improving on both fronts.
It is like everything, economies of scale, once the demand is there the technology to facilitate it is developed.
A bit like batteries, first portable tools had NiMH as did the early Toyota Prius, they had memory issues and poor energy density.
Then came the Li ion batteries and the E.V's became a feasible product, the same will happen with hydrogen, production costs will fall and better transport mediums will be developed.
Hydrogen is still a clean fuel with a high energy density, can be stored for long periods and transported over long distances as ammonia.

 

[JohnDe]

As with everything, the cost of production and the difficulty of transporting, but they are improving on both fronts.
It is like everything, economies of scale, once the demand is there the technology to facilitate it is developed.
A bit like batteries, first portable tools had NiMH as did the early Toyota Prius, they had memory issues and poor energy density.
Then came the Li ion batteries and the E.V's became a feasible product, the same will happen with hydrogen, production costs will fall and better transport mediums will be developed.
Hydrogen is still a clean fuel with a high energy density, can be stored for long periods and transported over long distances as ammonia.

Electric Vehicles and Hydrogen Vehicles for private transport, reminds me of the Beta and VHS history.

 

[sptrawler]

Very true John, I think h2 will be a niche market, when it comes to passenger vehicles.

Fortescue opens WA’s first green hydrogen refuelling station for fleet of Toyota Mirais

Fortescue Future Industries opens Western Australia’s first green hydrogen refuelling station to power its fleet of 12 Toyota Mirai fuel cell cars.

reneweconomy.com.au

 

[sptrawler]

From the article above:
The refuelling station in Perth will use a 200kW hydrogen electrolyser, which can make 65kg of green hydrogen a day. The Mirai uses nearly 1kg of hydrogen for every 100kms, so will need up to 6kg to refuel.

So if that is accurate and isn't a biased presentation, which the "so it will need upto 6kg to refuel " seemed superfluous", it need what it needs.

But just using their figures 200kW x 24 hours, can make 65kg of H2 and 1kg can take the car 100km.

BACK of the napkin:

Therefore 200kW x 24hrs = 4,800 kW/65kg of hydrogen =73kW per1 kg of hydrogen, which can take the car 100km.

A BEV uses about 16-20kW/100km, therefore the BEV uses approx 70% less electrical energy input to cover the same distance, if the electrical energy is sourced from the same place.

However that isn't the whole story, for the BEV to have the same 600km range the the H2 car has, it will need a 500kg battery, whereas the H2 car will need say a 20kg kevlar tank and 6kg of H2.

So the BEV has to carry a 20 times weight penalty, to gain a 70% reduction in electrical energy required to cover the distance.

Therefore the deciding factor regarding heavy haulage will be, the cost of the energy Vs increased unladen weight of the vehicle, which will affect how much freight it can transport.

If the cost of the energy isn't included, the reduction in freight carrying capacity and distance to be carried, could well be the deciding factor.?

With a car it's a no brainer, the 500kg weight penalty is far outweighed by the reduced cost to charge the 100km of energy, when the weight difference starts to get into the several tons, the lines start to blur.

It will be interesting to see how both energies evolve over the next 10 years, the cost of H2 production needs to fall and the energy density of batteries needs to increase, or a hybrid of both needs to develop where both advantages are utilised.

For example it may be that long haul trucking companies have both prime movers, one set of battery operated that move the trailers from distribution point e.g Adelaide and take them to Ceduna, then other H2 prime movers that pick up the trailer at Ceduna and run them through to Coolgardie.

Then all you need is a H2 refueling station at Ceduna and one at Coolgardie, you get the economy of the battery prime mover for local distribution and only require the weight and distance advantage of the H2 on extremely long runs with virtually no stops.
Interesting times.

 

[Value Collector]

So, what's the rub with mass producing this stuff and mass transporting it around the globe for mass use?

This engineer seems to have identified a number of huge flaws with using hydrogen for combustion engines (rather than fuel cells)

Basically there are two ways to use hydrogen to power a vehicle.

1. Use a fuel cell which converts the hydrogen to electricity, so you basically have an electric vehicle that uses hydrogen instead of a batttery, this is the most efficient option.

2, burn the hydrogen in an internal combustion engine, which loses a lot of energy to heat and mechanical movement, which is super inefficient like todays petrol engines.

 

[Value Collector]

From the article above:
The refuelling station in Perth will use a 200kW hydrogen electrolyser, which can make 65kg of green hydrogen a day. The Mirai uses nearly 1kg of hydrogen for every 100kms, so will need up to 6kg to refuel.

So if that is accurate and isn't a biased presentation, which the "so it will need upto 6kg to refuel " seemed superfluous", it need what it needs.

But just using their figures 200kW x 24 hours, can make 65kg of H2 and 1kg can take the car 100km.

BACK of the napkin:

Therefore 200kW x 24hrs = 4,800 kW/65kg of hydrogen =73kW per1 kg of hydrogen, which can take the car 100km.

A BEV uses about 16-20kW/100km, therefore the BEV uses approx 70% less electrical energy input to cover the same distance, if the electrical energy is sourced from the same place.

However that isn't the whole story, for the BEV to have the same 600km range the the H2 car has, it will need a 500kg battery, whereas the H2 car will need say a 20kg kevlar tank and 6kg of H2.

So the BEV has to carry a 20 times weight penalty, to gain a 70% reduction in electrical energy required to cover the distance.

Therefore the deciding factor regarding heavy haulage will be, the cost of the energy Vs increased unladen weight of the vehicle, which will affect how much freight it can transport.

If the cost of the energy isn't included, the reduction in freight carrying capacity and distance to be carried, could well be the deciding factor.?

With a car it's a no brainer, the 500kg weight penalty is far outweighed by the reduced cost to charge the 100km of energy, when the weight difference starts to get into the several tons, the lines start to blur.

It will be interesting to see how both energies evolve over the next 10 years, the cost of H2 production needs to fall and the energy density of batteries needs to increase, or a hybrid of both needs to develop where both advantages are utilised.

For example it may be that long haul trucking companies have both prime movers, one set of battery operated that move the trailers from distribution point e.g Adelaide and take them to Ceduna, then other H2 prime movers that pick up the trailer at Ceduna and run them through to Coolgardie.

Then all you need is a H2 refueling station at Ceduna and one at Coolgardie, you get the economy of the battery prime mover for local distribution and only require the weight and distance advantage of the H2 on extremely long runs with virtually no stops.
Interesting times.

If you are talking weight of hydrogen vs battery you also have to include the weight of the fuel cell, which in the Toyota is about 60 kg + over 80 kg for the hydrogen tank, then there is a small amount of fuel weight.

So it is lighter than a battery, but not 20 times lighter.

The other thing you don’t hear much about is what happens to all the water generated in cold climates? Will hydrogen vehicles cause icy roads?

 

[sptrawler]

If you are talking weight of hydrogen vs battery you also have to include the weight of the fuel cell, which in the Toyota is about 60 kg + over 80 kg for the hydrogen tank, then there is a small amount of fuel weight.

So it is lighter than a battery, but not 20 times lighter.

The other thing you don’t hear much about is what happens to all the water generated in cold climates? Will hydrogen vehicles cause icy roads?

I did say that in passenger vehicles it is a no brainer, the BEV wins hands down and the reason I bought one, I was trying to keep the explanation pretty basic without being too OCD.
The only time weight becomes an issue, is when the weight difference starts to reduce the amount of freight that can be carried and if there is an increase in transit times due to refueling that causes a logistical or financial problem.
I don't think the water on the road will be a major problem between Ceduna and Coolgardie, or Port Augusta and Three Ways.
It will all come down to economics and what works.
It may end up that long haul freight ends up on trains and who knows how they will be powered, one has to stay open minded about new technological advancements.
Let's be honest in 2018 the Libs wanted diesel subs to be seen to be woke, hip, cool, four years later that was so not cool, now even Labor want nuclear subs.
Things change, those who get too fixated, get left behind.

Australian solar park could generate hydrogen for less than $2/kg

A new study shows that hydrogen could be produced for as little as AUD 2.85 ($1.98) per kilogram, supporting Frontier Energy's plans to make green hydrogen from a 500 MW solar project it is developing in Western Australia.

www.pv-magazine.com

 

[Value Collector]

I did say that in passenger vehicles it is a no brainer, the BEV wins hands down and the reason I bought one, I was trying to keep the explanation pretty basic without being too OCD.
The only time weight becomes an issue, is when the weight difference starts to reduce the amount of freight that can be carried and if there is an increase in transit times due to refueling that causes a logistical or financial problem.
I don't think the water on the road will be a major problem between Ceduna and Coolgardie, or Port Augusta and Three Ways.
It will all come down to economics and what works.
It may end up that long haul freight ends up on trains and who knows how they will be powered, one has to stay open minded about new technological advancements.
Let's be honest in 2018 the Libs wanted diesel subs to be seen to be woke, hip, cool, four years later that was so not cool, now even Labor want nuclear subs.
Things change, those who get too fixated, get left behind.

Australian solar park could generate hydrogen for less than $2/kg

A new study shows that hydrogen could be produced for as little as AUD 2.85 ($1.98) per kilogram, supporting Frontier Energy's plans to make green hydrogen from a 500 MW solar project it is developing in Western Australia.

www.pv-magazine.com

In the USA they have increased the maximum weight for electric trucks by 2000 pounds, to compensate for the additional weight of the battery. When you also minus the weight of the diesel engine which is huge compared to the electric engine which can be picked up by a person the weight difference is narrowed.

When it comes to recharging times, the legal rest periods for truck drivers providers a window larger than what is required for charging.

See the chart below, it shows that the maximum drive times force truck drivers to rest for 30mins before a truck would empty its battery, and the 30 min fast charge will charge easily during that time.

Truck drivers are also forced to stay idle for 7 hours straight each day, which would allow a slow charge if needed.