How effective is our Social Security System?

[bel532]

It's even more of you are 'work shy' and believe everyone else should pay for your children. Have as many as you like, the sucker taxpayer will pay. No worries!

Oz is certainly the Land of Milk and Honey.

 

[marklar]

I voted a 5 based on the fact I've worked for Centrelink in the past and I think they do a reasonable job.

I'm 35 and have never had a single cent in payments from DSS/CSDA/Centrelink, my girlfriend is currently a full-time student and is getting some assistance (albeit less since we moved in together as I'm deemed to earn "too much") which is about enough to pay for food & some bills, but not really enough for her to contribute towards the rent. I'm actually surprised she gets anything at all from Centrelink anymore.

m.

 

[Julia]

Seriously:-they are my thoughts exactly. After 3 months ...work for the mo.

Humourously:-The social security system isn't effective....I still have to work to make a living. (from what I've heard it is over $400 a fortnight and a sleep in every day thrown in)

Wysiwyg

Payment rates vary considerably according to the type of benefit. A 19 year old on Youth Allowance gets well under $400 per fortnight and cannot support himself with current market rents unless he shares accommodation.

At the other end of the scale, two scenarios bring in the big bucks:
A family with Dad getting Newstart (the dole), Mum getting family tax payments for five or six children, plus rent assistance = between $1000 and $1200 per fortnight:
One person on a Disability Pension and the other on a Carer's Pension plus Carer's allowance, plus rent assistance, = over $1000 p/fortnight also.
Sole Parent pensions can also be high, depending on number of children.

A lot of these people genuinely need the assistance, but a lot could go and find a job if they had to.
I remember talking to one woman some years ago who had six kids, the eldest of which was about to turn 16,and she would then no longer receive a benefit for that child. She was unhappy about the drop in income this would represent so came up with the very clever idea that she would simply get pregnant again to create the extra income. No kidding! Actually wanting a child for its own sake just didn't come into it.

 

[bel532]

Wysiwyg



I remember talking to one woman some years ago who had six kids, the eldest of which was about to turn 16,and she would then no longer receive a benefit for that child. She was unhappy about the drop in income this would represent so came up with the very clever idea that she would simply get pregnant again to create the extra income. No kidding! Actually wanting a child for its own sake just didn't come into it.

Some people just have children so they can obtain better accomodation from the State Government.

I have come across that scenario a number of times, including one bloke who, for a time, stayed at my house (I felt sorry for him whilst he was goiing through a seperation)until I discovered he was a bludger. He remarried, had more children and was supplied with subsidised accommodation by the Government. Whilst he lived at my house he went to work 'when he felt like it'.

Unemployment benefits should be available to the needy and not just for procreation or 'lifestyle'.

 

[Happy]

Social security system should be our pride, however doesn’t have enough built in protection to prevent rorts and abuse of the system.

Dob-in the cheat and its success are sorry proof that the system doesn’t have enough safeguards.

Large scale lie detectors and possibly mind reading devices in the future might help to curb the trend.

Until then, system might collapse under freeloaders weight.
And the irony is, possible collapse will hut ones most in need.



Reminds me humps on the road, they were designed to slow down the hoons, yet everybody suffers.

 

[explod]

Very few of us know or understand the horrors of being out of work, it's time we looked to our fellows, particularly women around their 60s living in their cars:-

"
This is NOT an accident. Every person I know on Newstart went through a period or multiple periods where appointments weren't sent in time or at all, resulting in your payments being stopped. That is the beginning of hours and hours, sometimes days trying to get them reinstated so you can pay rent and buy food.

Miraculously, the text to advise you that you missed an appointment and were having your payment suspended always seemed to work perfectly

I was told on one occasion my payment wouldn't clear till the next day. I had no money for food. The Centrelink worker's response? To go to a local charity or food bank

When new legislation passed allowing JSP's more powers to suspend payments, I was sent a vaguely threatening letter that outlined the exact number of appointments I had missed, with no admission that they were not my fault, stating that it showed a bad "attitude" towards job seeking and to "be more careful in the future".

Never mind that I was on a medical incapacity and job seeking WASN'T A PART OF MY MUTUAL OBLIGATIONS!

The amount of stress, shame and frustration turns you into someone who thinks of nothing else but survival. You don't tell family and friends because you start feeling like such a failure that you're having trouble even trying to claim Newstart.

No one can imagine how degraded you feel only a few months in, let alone for those who have found themselves on the payment long term. I've said it before and I will say it again, it was and still is soul destroying. After a while you start to lose hope and feel as though you deserve no better.

They have to make us feel this way, otherwise we would never stand for the demoralizing treatment from a government that is supposed to provied a social safety net for people. "

#WelfareIsNotADirtyWord #Newstart #RaiseWelfarePaymentsNow #BringBackTheCES

 

[kahuna1]

Hi Explod,

hope ur well,

I agree Newstart is a joke the payment is too low to be anything other than on the streets homeless or in a car.

If your able, try and apply for a full disability pension which is a better option. Will take some paperwork.
Public housing, yep massive waiting lists, but then again worth it for a roof.

Not sure about pension status of super, but getting declared disabled releases this as does a few its of paper to release some saved super for emergencies even on Newstart.

I do note the Liberals did a massive push prior to the last election making life difficult for the people on Newstart, clearly disabled, but not being allowed onto a disability pension. Lots of them left by work-cover and not fixed ... medically ... claims delayed and denied whilst their welfare, finances and relationships go to HELL ....

Its resembling USA type system to some extent. Not so bad wiuth at least a decent Medicare to fall back on and even a Newstart ... which at ?? $270- a week cant possibly even pay for anything.

It needs to rise a bit ... and the people as you say in the 60 ish age range with medical issues, very hard to find employers willing to hire them ... even if they were able, live in limbo .... till they get to age 65 or 67 and the pension.

Suggest either way ... try the disabled route via doctors ... then at least get on the public housing waiting list and not being nosy ... super ... get some out to meet immediate needs ....

It sucks and as you can see I have helped a few or tried to ... navigate this nightmare.


Good luck, dont let them annoy you too much they are phone books with eyes on the main the workers there.

 

[explod]

I'm 73 and on a full pension and comfortably off. I put this post up as I have always been a fighter for others. I was a formation member of the AUWU (Aust Unemployed Workers Union)

Sorry, should have made it clear the above was a quote from someone else.

We need to spread the word Champ.

 

[kahuna1]

Yep ...
Had a few I have helped with the NSW work cover system and its nightmare of denial of liability and ... other associated impacts.

I feel for those injured and then having to spend 2-3myears to get help ... which by then its too late ... finances, relationships .... everything else shredded.

Ahhh .... on the balance much better than the USA, but in some ways worse or just as bad.

On my too do list ...

 

[sptrawler]

homeless or in a car.

If your able, try and apply for a full disability pension which is a better option. Will take some paperwork.
Public housing, yep massive waiting lists, but then again worth it for a roof.

Not sure about pension status of super, but getting declared disabled releases this as does a few its of paper to release some saved super for emergencies even on Newstart.

I do note the Liberals did a massive push prior to the last election making life difficult for the people on Newstart, clearly disabled, but not being allowed onto a disability pension. Lots of them left by work-cover and not fixed ... medically ... claims delayed and denied whilst their welfare, finances and relationships go to HELL ....


Suggest either way ... try the disabled route via doctors ... then at least get on the public housing waiting list and not being nosy ... super ... get some out to meet immediate needs ....

It sucks and as you can see I have helped a few or tried to ... navigate this nightmare.


Good luck, dont let them annoy you too much they are phone books with eyes on the main the workers there.

During the Gillard Labor Government, they made it much more difficult to obtain the disability pension.
I qualified, but after discussions with the other half, decided not not to pursue it.
It is very attractive, but very onerous and don't complain about privacy there didn't appear to be any. Just my opinion.

 

[SirRumpole]

During the Gillard Labor Government, they made it much more difficult to obtain the disability pension.
I qualified, but after discussions with the other half, decided not not to pursue it.
It is very attractive, but very onerous and don't complain about privacy there didn't appear to be any. Just my opinion.

So Labor is the welfare state is it ?

 

[qldfrog]

A sorry tale indeed Explod, and parallel when you earn money, to the way the ato or asic treat you
Asic forgets to send me their bill something like 3 times in the last 10y.each time you have a threatening letter and have to pay a few hundred fine.never waived.
You spend hours on the phone to no change as the following years it starts again
Ato threatened me for daring to use a personal vehicle for business purposes...purely legit but was out of the average so.. .

What you see here, with centerlink or the ato is the arrogance of a system which is always right, and where you as an individual has no power
Same as a corrupt cop, or receiving a speed camera fine for a speed you can not physically reach..who cares
Maybe part of the solution in Australia would be a bill of rights or similar.

 

[qldfrog]

Something i discovered and found unfair via my son experience
He will qualify for some part welfare payment as a full time student at 21, but can not now at 20,nor could he earlier
Yet he is supposed to be an adult and can vote at 18???
Find this quite dismissive..yes it may save the budget a few bucks but hey mate, you are not 21 so go back to your parents and beg
Not critical in my son case, i foot the bill but still not right and probably not helping with suicide stats

 

[SirRumpole]

The baby bonus is another. I'm aware of several instances of women having children to pay off bills, credit cards etc rather than because they actually want the child.

And incur even greater debt and welfare dependancy as their children grow up.

 

[Smurf1976]

The nonsense that goes on with welfare as discussed here is terrible economic management really.

Having a difficult and "painful" approach to welfare discourages those who might otherwise take risks in business from doing so lest they go bust and end up begging for the dole. In having that approach we lose the gains that would come with those who succeed from the risks they take.

It should be set at a modest rate but enough to survive on and administered professionally and without judgement or forcing recipients to jump through countless hoops to access it.

 

[SirRumpole]

The nonsense that goes on with welfare as discussed here is terrible economic management really.

Having a difficult and "painful" approach to welfare discourages those who might otherwise take risks in business from doing so lest they go bust and end up begging for the dole. In having that approach we lose the gains that would come with those who succeed from the risks they take.

It should be set at a modest rate but enough to survive on and administered professionally and without judgement or forcing recipients to jump through countless hoops to access it.

Maybe there should be some encouragement/ education for those on Newstart to start their own business instead of replying to countless job applications for which they have little chance of succeeding.

We are supposed to be in a service economy growth phase, anything from dog walking to lawn mowing to house cleaning services should be in demand with very little training.

 

[sptrawler]

I was just reading a report on the SMH, where most people are going to run out of money in retirement, so God knows who will support them, the young don't seem interested.
Also those already on a pension are just $hit scared they will have to share it with someone else.lol

 

[Toyota Lexcen]

Maybe there should be some encouragement/ education for those on Newstart to start their own business instead of replying to countless job applications for which they have little chance of succeeding.

We are supposed to be in a service economy growth phase, anything from dog walking to lawn mowing to house cleaning services should be in demand with very little training.

They are encouraged to do that.

Social security works very well for the bludgers of society, they have all the excuses and ways to get payments for 20+ yrs. Subsidised housing, public transport tickets etc. Family after family of them.

Many are moved onto DSP because of back pain or RSI in forearm, that is utopia when that happens as their responsibilities for gaining employment pretty much end.

This compares with people who have worked hard during their life, may have sold a property, saved for retirement etc and may have become unemployed who now HAVE TO SPEND ALL THEIR MONEY before they get 1 cent.

 

[explod]

The subsidies to the very wealthy far outstrip the entire cost of social security - yet the government and media continue to denigrate the poor. The attacks on their income and expansion of the cashless welfare card will continue in the next three years while corporate tax cuts are being pushed harder

 

[kahuna1]

Social security works very well for the bludgers of society, they have all the excuses and ways to get payments for 20+ yrs. Subsidised housing, public transport tickets etc. Family after family of them.

It is and always WILL be a balance. One hand it must discourage handouts and encourage work or getting better, flip side, not your fault, laid off age 55, 30 years in and around an industry with skill n loner valid. Retrain, age 57 who employs you ? You get sick, not sick enough to be disabled at $270 a week ... not well enough to work ,. The level of NEwstart is TOO low. Not much but its too low to sustain life outside living on the streets .

Balance ... and compassion .. but mixed with practical and pragmatic velvet covered gloves with teeth to steer and assist them back to work if possible.

We swing between to absurdly loose, which is rare in the last 40 years to a person being injured at work expecting to have Workcover insurance pay, only to be denied when a video exists of the crane falling on the poor bugger ,,, NO dispute there ,,, but it takes 3 years till ruled upon, they win hands down ... in the meantime an income of say $100 a week goes to $270 and even that does not occur usually till 6 months latter when all savings are gone and they realize its a game.

Sent to Workcover doctors I helped one guy, lost all his fingers, farm worker, no dispute they are gone, other arm crushed, low education. Claim after 6 months denied. It was won, payments and help for a while but aged 50, limited one hand and help stopped, offered 50k til age 67. Doctors insurance ones even denied injury, which the arbitrator at workcover dismissed on sight. NO penalty to insurer working for NSW goverment, in fact paid a bonus to DENY the claim and defend it .... for denying payments after 6 months when it got to court 3 years latter. NONE. No penalty for destroying the life, relationship and finances of so so many.

By denying the claim, and these types, and doing so, half with claims evaporate, 99% end up on welfare without treatment till in many cases too late. Not in this case as any recover is not really possible back to full health or close to it, In the meantime, deny 100 valid claims likely to cost 200 k, deny again and again, cost to insurance doctors and lawyers and bonus to Insurer acting supposedly on the NSW Government best behavior. In the case of NSW workcover, it slashed its cover, denied all payments beyond 5 years, denied nearly 100% of some cases and hey presto Federal govt foots a medical bill for recovers and income support ..... meanwhile NSW govt workcover finances went from 3 billion BEHIND and underfunded to 3 billion in surplus.

thank you NSW liberal party and Mr Andrew Constance.

This is the same with every workcover insurer in Australia.
TPD insurance was covered at the banking stuff.

Total Permanent disability if you get injured at work ... same thing different stripes. Most claims were like workcover denied and denied and denied. CBA stories harrowing, Westpac a disgrace ... you pay the premium and some guy with truck rolling and him being unable even to speak, denied .... paraplegic and valid insurance policy denied denied denied.

until something bad happens to you, or someone you love .... have some compassion. Getting benefits is not a lifestyle or income level one would enjoy. There are adequate forms or training given to unemployed. Disabled, to be declared under age 67 disabled is a process that is both complex and involves teams of doctors verifying injuries and so on. If you say have cancer, stage 4 or 5, its still going to take 5- months for approval and since its likely terminal, the cancer, Newstart is given at say $270 a week verses $380 full pension. Hardly what I would call ... much to live on.

It is however CRUCIAL if your sick, breast cancer, leukemia or so on.

Dole bludgers, well ... at $270 a week and an employment provider needed and retraining and support and needing to apply for 4 ? 5 ? with evidence of applying for jobs, hardly the life its made out to be. Food .. rent ... forget it ... oh rent assistance at half the rent ... so $100 - of $270 is gone ... car ... fuel ... food ... clothes ... mortgage ... or credit card or debts ...

I have taken the time, for free to assist various people over the years and with various issues from legal to workcover and so on. Its nice, in your warm fuzzy world of things going ok to forget, at times ... stuff happens.

Sure a minority ... yes ... rorts or not valid. Others and the vast majority a safety net to catch life's curve balls. Thinking it will never happen to you, is a wish. Even with savings, being hit with an accident at work, a mortgage and a family and $1,000 income a week going to zero, bills increasing via medical ones, NOT a cent coming in till you realize its a game lf insurers or banks to deny claim till contested, you likely even if really smart only get lawyers till 6 months latter, or 50k plus in various outgoings, income now $270- bills 1k a week ...

Allianz recently denied a ladys claim from an admitted sexual predator at work and his accomplice, a confession signed by them ,,, Insurers paid a massive bonus for denial ... despite signed confession. All up bonus paid to insurer ...medical Insurance doctor and so on .,.. 100k .... plus, with an operation for the physical injury and counseling likely 100% she would be back at work aged 45. working for 20 years. Instead a treatable injury not treated , mentally persecuted and in fact stalked and threatened by sexual pervert and predator mate after the injury and after signed confession given, she never will work again, physical side now operation is less than 20% chance or working verses 90% and 50% it makes matters worse. I might add Human Rights sexual commission which is the Federal court side of the issue accepted the case on a record initial 7 breaches of the act and then 9. It was settled out of court mind you ... not for much ... but ... best that could have been expected.

Without some soul like ME doing the legal side for free ... NET gain ... zero ... in fact despite my efforts and eventual wins ... Allianz now replaced by another agent insurer for NSW goverment ... denies liability in fact blocks it and the court ... NSW workcover is s sham. A joke ...

By denying 100 claims likely to cost if paid till age 67 now ... only 5 years cover ... cost would have been say 1 million plus Deny them with vengeance even with me fighting 10 law firms ... she got decent cover for 5 years all be NO operation as that was blocked and due to 18 months going past which is now 5 years, operation success less and less likely .... money wise they saved themselves 900 k. Most GIVE up. Most either suicide ... or are given opioids to mask pain verses operation much like the USA.

Instead of 20 years working, paying tax ... likely less than 12 months for an operation ... a woman sexually abused threatened and physically injured as a result of work, well ... Disability pension .,, in extreme pain for 20 years till retirement and old age pension ... to be sexually harassed and then STALKED and THEN threatened ... after the event let alone years prior to it ... stuff me.

Nothing is perfect .... But all workcover systems do this NOW in Australia and a lot fall to the safety net ... cost the NSW side made 6 billion in 3 years by changing an already grossly unfair system into ... a joke of denial which instead of NO fault just fix them ... and 7000 private investigators following claims each year resulted in 3 ... cases ... of fraud ... 3 each year out of 7,000 private eyes with cameras gives you some idea of HOW many are false, the long term ones. Loose an arm ? Its worth 25k .... I kid you not. An eye ? 17 k. I would PAY ... not to have it occur.

So sorry to be blunt ... NOTING is perfect.
It has to BE a hurdle of course to sort out the rorts, but seriously injured or those in NEED and DIRE need are the vast majority. To suggest any sane person wants $270 a week to live on is insulting.

Whilst my own community service comes in various forms, my life blessed in some many ways, I font look down my nose at those less well off. Dont rush too fast to judgement. Those who are homeless or down on their luck, even at times addicted to opioids especially in the USA, its more about an insurer and healthcare costs there, that an operation here being 20k is 200k there and the health insurer gives only approval for an opiod costing $500- a year verses a full recovery likely 90% of the time neck or back operation costing too much ..., one opioid pill dulls the pain ... two for a very bad day .... three your off your face .... and 4 YOUR DEAD.

We are thankfully less inhumane than the USA to its sick or poor or less well off. In some ways we are the same and shamefully so !!