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No, it doesn't. It implies nothing of the sort. To say that "in the long run price will converge with value" means that a stock or any other security that is currently mispriced will at some point converge with value. It may do so only to become mispriced again because the market is dynamic, not static. It follows therefore that prices of securities are always diverging and converging from true value and when they do converge it does not mean their prices can never again diverge from true value in the future.....
Art is not an investment. If you buy an artwork solely in the hope of being able to off-load it onto someone else at a higher price at a point in the future, you are speculating, i.e. you are hoping that someone will pay you a higher price than you paid. In the meantime, the artwork itself will not pay you anything. Contrast that with an asset that steadily and regularly throws off cash to the owner of the asset: I don't need anyone to buy that asset from me at a higher price than I paid for it in order to be enriched by those cash flows and in order for those cash flows to have a reasonably clear present value.
As a generalised statement, this is true. But if what you are saying is that an asset - say, a business that is presently losing money and will continue to lose money in the foreseeable future - is or can rationally be as valuable as a business that is presently profitable and will likely remain so, then that is less clear and may in fact be entirely speculative.
... Example. Say I think company XYZ is worth at least $10 in the future. It now sells for $5. When that future arrives and XYZ does hit $10... could I just conclude that that $10 is then the "true price"?
It depends right?... Dynamic environment; changing circumstances; new potential markets; less competitors etc. etc. All the new and then unforeseen factors may mean $10 then is way overpriced or way under the new "true value". So just as we cannot say that old and established companies' share price are "true" on most days; we too cannot say that in the distant or medium future, the price will be true to its value. Therefore, we can only value a company based on current and existing information - That mean our estimate value must be referring to the value at this current point in time... The idea of the long term the market reflects simply mean that others in the market do not agree with our assessment, but they are wrong and we are geniuses and given enough time - they too will see the light... It does not mean that in the future, the business will grow to meet its true value
I think the claim that you are trying to make is that everything is relative: i.e. that it is impossible to say at any given point in time that the price of a security accurately reflects the security's value because in the future circumstances may exist that render the convergence of the security's price with its value inaccurate.
Interestingly, you do not back up this claim with any real world examples. Why is that? Can't you find any?
I suspect that you can't because your claim is contradictory. You say or seem to say that if today I estimate the value of a particular security to be $10 per share and the security is then being offered in the market at $5 per share and if it takes 12 months for the price of the security to converge with its value of $10, the security may not really be worth $10 per share by that time because, in your words, "changing circumstances" have arisen over the course of that 12 months that may make the security overvalued (or undervalued as the case may be).
But how does that prove your point that one can never "say that in the distant or medium future the price will be true to its value"? In the example that you give, the "changing circumstances" have diminished the security's value, so of course when the price of the security finally reaches $10 per share it is overvalued. The value of the security has changed in the meantime and if I continued to hold it I would be a fool.
The only way that your point could be correct is if I remained ignorant of the diminution of value that these "changing circumstances" have had on the security's value and continued to hold onto it. But if I have remained ignorant of these "changing circumstances", the fault lies with me. How does my ignorance of factors affecting the value of my investment prove your point that one can never "say that in the distant or medium future the price will be true to its value"?
I understand that you are trying to argue that it is impossible to know at any given point in time whether a security is accurately priced in relation to its value, so why not just accept in the here and now that a security's value is its price and look no further.
But the made-up example that you give above does not prove your point and is implausible in any case. I think that if you backed up your claim with some real world examples it would demonstrate whether there is any empirical support for your claim and help you focus on whether your claim refers to something that occurs in the real world.
Price can remain out of line with underlying value for quite some time and there's potential profit to be made following the trend. Hence it may well be sensible to buy an overvalued stock if (1) there is an expectation that the price will continue to rise and (2) the intention is to sell it once that trend nears its end.
The concept that what's happening right now (price) can remain out of step with what you'd otherwise expect (fundamentals) isn't unique to the stock market and occurs in all sorts of things. Just because it was hotter than average yesterday doesn't mean it won't be even hotter today and hotter again tomorrow.
Price can remain out of line with underlying value for quite some time and there's potential profit to be made following the trend. Hence it may well be sensible to buy an overvalued stock if (1) there is an expectation that the price will continue to rise and (2) the intention is to sell it once that trend nears its end.
The concept that what's happening right now (price) can remain out of step with what you'd otherwise expect (fundamentals) isn't unique to the stock market and occurs in all sorts of things. Just because it was hotter than average yesterday doesn't mean it won't be even hotter today and hotter again tomorrow.
If it could be done consistently, then for sure. But thing is I don't think it's possible to consistently predict the trend, nor is it possible to get out in time.
It's like shorting stocks... we can all have some idea that a stock is way out of whack and it's just a matter of time... but to put money on when that time is. That's just too much unnecessary risk.
It's just my opinion here but I think it's best to follow an approach that suits us, that we understand, follow it in all our investment decision.
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No. What i'm saying is that a company's value is always at the present - that we look at its historical performance, its current state, and we estimate what its likely future performance would be. All these are done at the present... So at this present time, we come to our estimate of its value, or range of values.
Then looking at the market price, we'd buy if the market is undervalued relative to what we think the "true value" is most likely be.
Then the idea that in the long run etc.... that is simply the wait we would need to prepare for. That is, other people and the market are obviously not seeing the current value but in time they will.
In other words, I find a $10 million dollar painting at a garage sale. It is worth $10M but the unlucky seller thought it's a dirty old print and selling it for what the frame might be worth. Once I buy it, put it on eBay and others will bid up to $20M. That is, I didn't buy a print and wait for it to grow in value to $10M - it's already $10M when I bought it.
Real life example... Take Mermaid Marine (MRM)... Say I estimate its value to be at least $1 per share. It's selling for 25 cents a share. When I buy at current price of 25 cents I already am ahead - just the market does not agree with me...
When, if, the market come round to agreeing that there is value to MRM... nothing much has changed so it would still be $1 a share according to my estimate. But if the market has improved markedly and my estimate based on asset value are not so relevant and earnings and bright future is clearly happening - it just got more valuable.
So question is, how long am I willing to hold before the market may come to agree with me.
I have to disagree... at least in my own trading results it is possible to consistently predict the trend if you have the right knowledge and skill level...
"Consistently" is a very relative term. Technical traders that I know freely admit that they correctly predict trends (whether long term, short term or medium term) less 50% of the time. In many cases, it is only around a third of the time that their predictions are correct and these guys have been trading for years.
"Consistently" is a very relative term.
If a weather forecaster on the nightly news correctly predicted the weather less than 50% of the time, you'd switch channels and take you're umbrella every single day regardless of how clear the skies were outside.
It does not matter how long you have been trading...
... It depends on the level of knowledge and skill the trader has and how he/she approaches his/her trading... As I said before in my trading I have a far better success rate than that based on my own results...but everyone to there own.
You don't need to be right to be profitable Rainman, you only need your wins to be much greater than your losses. But you make a good point, trend following is not for everyone, as there are plenty that cannot handle the draw-downs of between 20-40% and a win rate in the low 40s to 50%.
Also, i think most technical traders or trend followers would disagree that they are trying to predict anything. Its more of an anticipation of probability in case the historical statistics hold true.
There are plenty of trend following traders that have been made famous and wealthy from their strategies that produced consistent profits for many years, some even decades with equity curves that even dear old dad Warren would agree were smoother than Berkshires.
I have never denied that technical traders make money. But see my earlier response to Triathlete.
Isn't that just a long-winded way of saying that their trades are based on a hoped-for prediction? You are just playing the odds. That is gambling, pure and simple.
Who are they? And where are they now?
You must be just trolling, you cannot possibly be this naive, or one eyed about a subject, surely... ... Here is a list of trend following funds Trend Following Wizards – Fund performance
Here is a list of trend following funds Trend Following Wizards – Fund performance
No, I don't 'look up' to them, I only posted the link as an example of a list of trend following funds.
I'll have a look tomorrow morning for a trend following fund with a better equity curve than Berkshire's....shouldn't be hard....
You do that.
But you didn't just post that link as "an example of a list of trend following funds". What would be the point of that if almost all of those funds lose money by trend following?
You posted it in support of your claim that there are other profitable ways to invest. I am still waiting to see these other "profitable ways to invest".
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