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House prices to keep rising for years

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They'd be fully securitised lenders so regardless of your deposit and capacity to pay, LMIs aren't looking at anyone with < 12 months with the same employer.

So that basically means anybody who loses their job in the next 12 months, or in fact has lost their job in the last 6 months has next to no chance of entering the housing market even if they find new work. Clearly this is not a good situation for the market as a whole. And with Government estimates we are heading towards 7% unemployment, this is possibly tens of thousands that are simply ineligible to enter the market.

That is subprime? I've heard some extravagent claims by both sides of the bull/bear divide, but this is up there with the best of them

Not having an adequate savings history or adequate equity from the get-go was one of the very elements of subprime! While lending standards may not be as low or to the near unemployed as what occurred in the US, if we look to the UK where 100% loans were common, it's a very thin line between LVR100% and 96%! And we can see where the UK has headed, where lending standards were *not* as lax as the US, but low LVR's were a clear contributor.

A small 5% or less cash deposit clearly shows the borrower cannot budget effectively to save over even a short period of time, and may well struggle as an owner at doing the same. Having a bare 6% deposit (and only say 3% of that your own), clearly would put FHB into negative equity with only small falls in the market, the magnitude of which has already been felt in the market in the last 12 months... Give it some further economic conditions deteriorating, and such borrowers will be in negative equity. And what happens if they lose their job once in that position?

Given that less senior employees are probably some of the most vulnerable in the workplace to layoffs, it's setting up for a tense situation for many in the coming year or two.

Never mind if/when interest rates go up several percent in future years... where there are similarities with such a scenario in the US situation, where ARM resets were one of the key triggers to setting off the whole crisis.
 
So that basically means anybody who loses their job in the next 12 months, or in fact has lost their job in the last 6 months has next to no chance of entering the housing market even if they find new work. Clearly this is not a good situation for the market as a whole. And with Government estimates we are heading towards 7% unemployment, this is possibly tens of thousands that are simply ineligible to enter the market.
That only covers the broader LMI borrowers, and the actual criteria can be waived if the client is changing within the same industry or has an otherwise stable employment history. Horses for courses.

Not having an adequate savings history or adequate equity from the get-go was one of the very elements of subprime! While lending standards may not be as low or to the near unemployed as what occurred in the US, if we look to the UK where 100% loans were common, it's a very thin line between LVR100% and 96%! And we can see where the UK has headed, where lending standards were *not* as lax as the US, but low LVR's were a clear contributor.
Contributer in a broad sense, but the criteria for lending gets extremely tight above 90% LVR and above 95% it is almost non-existant now (was extremely tough in the first place).

The major contributing factor was not the LVR in any case: it was capacity to pay. ARMS and severe credit-impared lending were almost completely excluded from home borrowing in Australia (we are talking a fraction of the 4% on non-conforming lender loans, and most of these has strong postcode restrictions in any case).

A small 5% or less cash deposit clearly shows the borrower cannot budget effectively to save over even a short period of time
Not necessarily. If you want to paint pictures, >95% LMI loans were pitched almost solely at uni grads who wouldn't have had the capacity to save much for a deposit. Kids walking out into $60-70k jobs as graduates.

Other segment (generally capped at 95% LMI) were investors who had money elsewhere who didn't want to contribute too much to the loan initially, or wanted to keep equity in other properties free for other purposes.

The percentage of loans for FHBs in their 30s at > 95% LVR was very low at both my previous employers.

Having a bare 6% deposit (and only say 3% of that your own), clearly would put FHB into negative equity with only small falls in the market, the magnitude of which has already been felt in the market in the last 12 months... Give it some further economic conditions deteriorating, and such borrowers will be in negative equity. And what happens if they lose their job once in that position?
As stated previously, at 6% you would struggle to buy a property after purchase costs.

It also needs to be noted that most here seem to forgotten that the US loans are almost all non-recourse (sub-prime or not). The consequences change markedly for defaulting borrowers in Australia as opposed to the US as a result.

Given that less senior employees are probably some of the most vulnerable in the workplace to layoffs, it's setting up for a tense situation for many in the coming year or two.

Never mind if/when interest rates go up several percent in future years... where there are similarities with such a scenario in the US situation, where ARM resets were one of the key triggers to setting off the whole crisis.
As said previously, we don't have ARMS in Australia. I think you seem to be confusing high LVR with capacity to pay, which are two seperate criteria. In addition, the recourse factor means borrowers in Australia are much less likely to hand in keys, as they will be pursued for costs & shortfall in the event of a negative equity sale (remembering LMI protects the lender: GE & PMI will still chase you even if you have satisfied the lender).

Sub-prime was extremely low in Australia (and basically non-existant amongst the big 5 lenders). The 20% of the securitised market has almost evaporated over the past 12 months, so the potential for even writing a sub-prime loan has contracted even further.
 
hello,

great news with Woolworths announcing 16k new jobs, gee what a surprise i thought no one would have a job with all the writings from the doomheads on blogs, forums, press etc

this is great,

thankyou
robots
 
I'm going to repost the link to an article Kincella found and posted in the other house price thread:

http://www.businessspectator.com.au...a-Dogma-$pd20090129-NQTPP?OpenDocument&src=mp

This one is definitely worth a read for bears and bulls alike - as it really looks at nearly all the points of discussion that occur in forums like this one. Right at the end there is this very interesting conclusion:

The RBA’s findings run strongly against the grain of what many would have us believe (refer to the chart below): that is, despite strong growth in real house prices over the last 25 years, the income younger home buyers have left over after paying off their mortgage was actually higher in 2007 than it has been at any other point in recorded history. Of course, affordability has only improved since then with significant reductions in the cash rate combined with no growth in house prices during 2008.

Cheers,

Beej
 
hello,

fantastic news today, a unit in our block went to auction today

2-bed, 3 bidders at auction knocked down for 425k, this is unbelievable, astonishing, cant believe it

Mr Keen said prices were going to drop by 40%, looks as though all the gains over the years are still there and with rents skyrocketing, paradise all the way

i guess thats the popularity of bricks and mortar, genuine product with genuine return, no financial engineering, no management team just plain old roof over the head

thankyou
robots
 
Went to an open house today, agent said anything around $500k is going well because of the low interest rates and first home buyers donation from the ATP (AU tax payer)

The real bust when it comes will be all the greater as a result.

We now have a dangerous combination to fuel an already huge bubble, low interest rates and bribes to get in. They both cant last forever.
 
hello,

man the grant has been going for years, i think introduced when the GST kicked off with both fed & state putting in,

i didnt get to an auction around the corner, "premium St Kilda Hill location" on the board, looking at over 1.2m so will be interesting to see the result tonite

but who knows Cheech, its always great to wake up and see something new going on every day

thankyou
robots
 
Yeah but Rudd doubled it and interest rates have gone through the floor, inflation will kick in and it will be all over when rates go up again.
 
Yeah but Rudd doubled it and interest rates have gone through the floor, inflation will kick in and it will be all over when rates go up again.

hello,

but i thought we are like the US, UK, Japan et al with interest rates going under 2%?

dont we follow these places, gee so many awesome wide ranging thoughts and opinions,

thankyou
robots
 
hello,

but i thought we are like the US, UK, Japan et al with interest rates going under 2%?

dont we follow these places, gee so many awesome wide ranging thoughts and opinions,

thankyou
robots

We do follow them just not at the exact same time.
 
I am hearing some good sales prices from friends...its Melb...
lovely weather here today..good for an auction...no fires to worry about

over on the property forum is a good link to perth prices....10 suburbs with prices in the last year higher from 20-40%...wow..and 10 worst burbs with some funny numbers...
maybe we have 2 economies here in aus....one for the bulls and one for the bears....
its funny....burb by burb can be very different.....
oh and the economists got it wrong again....they said down 6% and its up 3% etc..or down 3% and its up 6%....oh well out by 10% is not too bad
 
hello,

hang on, inflation is going to get us? do US, UK, Japan et al currently have an inflation issue?

oh yeah great day in Melbourne brother, Chapel st was packed with plenty enjoying the scene nirvana Number, tomorrow will be interesting because Sunday's recently have been quiet

the sun is still shining bright, what you know 12mths, 24mths, 60mths have passed and things still rolling on Cheech

thankyou
robots
 
Oh and Trev, Seaford units were up 15% for the Dec Q, I think that's what Robots was referring to.

Indeed... but I was just querying his claim that EVERYTHING was up.

I dont see why I would continue trying to save for a larger deposit Glen, when the minimum deposit is the same as renting in the area. Why rent and pay off someone elses mortgage, when I can pay off my own? Especially when I can pay it off in less than a decade

The "theory", from some, is that house prices will get lower in the coming 2 years, unemployment will be higher, incomes will be lower, this will force rents down as higher rental places become vacant, competing with the lower rental places ie for the same money you will be able to rent a much nicer place, forcing the average places to lower their rent to attract tenants etc etc. They cite the UK, USA and Japan for examples of this happening and you can see isolated incidents of this occurring in Aus.

You obviously don't buy into that argument, as you bought a house :) Which is what the Government wanted you to do, as they support propping the property market up with tax dollars (policy I am against but that's another debate entirly) As to paying it off, just make sure you aren't tempted to tap into your repaymets by redrawing in the future to buy nonsense toys like cars, jet skis, holidays etc, once you start doing that, you really do destroy wealth quickly.

I am not quite as convinced of this scenario happening in Aus. to my mind it has nothing to do with immigration, and housing supply and all to do with non recourse loans and the Government propping up housing via transferring tax from the young to current home owners (eg FHBG), our distorted tax rules encouraging people to buy property and our lax property spruiking laws allowing all and sundry to offer inappropriate property advice to the gullible.

If those situations change and Governments decide to start walking away from the concept of having the nations wealth tied up in housing rather then invested in productive enterprise (this is the very reason we need the chinese to bail out Aussie companies, our tax laws encourage the mass's to put their wealth into property, rather then productive enterprises) then things may change and property may return to what it once was ie accommodation, rather then subsidised speculative investment.

but i thought we are like the US, UK, Japan et al with interest rates going under 2%?

Don't confuse the headline cash rate with the rate you can loan cash, locally, the banks are already on record about not passing on all of any following rate reductions.

dont we follow these places, gee so many awesome wide ranging thoughts and opinions,

Indeed :D I just put in an offer for $650,000 (cash) on a 3x2 unit, where the vendor wants $894,000... we'll see. I own 1 IP and one PPOR currently (both debt free), this would be a new PPOR. I doubt they will take it but you never know.
 
We do follow them just not at the exact same time.

LOL - or for the same economic reasons? or for the same housing market factors (mega high defaults, sub prime etc)?. Gee - anyone would think we actually do have our own economy that can and does often do it's own thing for it's own reasons - which anyone investing in said economy would do well to understand!

Beej
 
hello,

knocker put up a link of current IR's in Uk and they are look quite reasonable in relation of the current cash rate in the UK,

aus banks have said this many times they cannot pass on full IR cuts, some have and some wont and that will probably continue

but i know i know, it's now apparent we wont follow that particular item

thankyou
robots
 
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