GTP - Great Southern Plantations

bongcso · 10 June 2009

Judd said:
What a cruel, cruel joke. Very painful for those who put money into this.

Yes, tell me about it. We are among the those who will be hardest hit as we invested in the 2007 and 2008 timber schemes. Our trees are just babies and by the time they get around to selling these schemes, our trees would probably be dead from neglect by then. We invested in timber schemes because we wanted some ethical investments in our portfolio - do our bit for global warming. Our plan was to use the money from these investments to travel the world when the trees are harvested in 15-20 years time. I guess maybe we just have to contend ourselves with traveling around Australia in a combi-van in our retirement, sigh.

Christina

Bugsy · 10 June 2009

I've spoken to Bendigo & Adelaide bank twice already in the last 4 weeks. I've asked them to provided me with the contracts for my loan which they took over 6 weeks ago. I'm still waiting for them to send me a copy. I guess I'll have to stop making repayments if they can't produce the contracts..

david001 · 11 June 2009

Not an endorsement, but I would consider essential viewing Wednesday night's 7.30 Report on Timbercorp and Great Southern.
I cannot hperlink as not enough posts sorry!

Forenth · 11 June 2009

The Shadow said:
Check this out:-

http://www.afr.com/home/login.aspx?EDP://20090610000031232548&section=industry-primary_industry

Also great article in the Aust Fin Review on Mr Young and Co. It's right on the money. Their days are numbered..................

Shadow.

I'm not an AFR subscriber. What's the gist of it? Is there anything more than what The Australian posted?

bv2726 · 11 June 2009

david001 said:
Not an endorsement, but I would consider essential viewing Wednesday night's 7.30 Report on Timbercorp and Great Southern.
I cannot hperlink as not enough posts sorry!

Missed this - did anyone watch it? can anyone provide a quick summary? It should be interesting.... I wonder if media pressure could change anything?

wooduk · 11 June 2009

bv2726 said:
Missed this - did anyone watch it? can anyone provide a quick summary? It should be interesting.... I wonder if media pressure could change anything?

Go to ABC online,tap in 7.30 report,you will see the replay for MIS plantations,and it also has a written interview on the rort and that government body ASIC and ATO.Also allegations of stand over and bribery corruption.

PLUS a beautiful camera shot of Young

wooduk · 11 June 2009

Forenth said:
I'm not an AFR subscriber. What's the gist of it? Is there anything more than what The Australian posted?

Read and weep,all they have done is cut timbercorp and pasted great southern, sloppy journalism,and also plagirism.But it gets better there is another news article of a director resigning after board discussion over young flogging shares and touting GTP is great when it was known that it was in trouble before 1998!

Sorry guys,we now go to plan B,Iam going to talk to townsend,you are welcome to talk to townsend too. Obviously we have our game plans ,IWC,Iam not going duk this and intend to blue them ,but let us play them

smh.com.au Great Southern project manager insolvent: reportDanny John
June 10, 2009 .
THE corporate offshoot charged with running Great Southern's managed investment schemes is insolvent and has no cash available to complete its forestry and horticulture projects.

Investigations undertaken by McGrathNicol, the receivers of the collapsed timber investment company, have indicated that the responsible entity of the Great Southern group will have to be wound up because of its financial position.

Great Southern Managers Australia (GSMA) is understood to have insufficient reserves and no chance of securing additional funds to continue in its role of managing the group's 45 schemes. GSMA was the body with direct responsibility for the schemes that over the past 10 years raised $2.3 billion from 43,000 investors attracted by the tax advantages of the group's managed investment projects.

But Great Southern's slide into administration last month after running up debts of $600 million has left the group's investor growers facing an uncertain future, especially as GSMA is no longer in a position to support their schemes.

Their situation mirrors that of the 18,500 investor growers in the rival managed investment company Timbercorp, which collapsed in late April owing creditors $900 million.

Timbercorp's responsible entity was found to be "hopelessly insolvent" by the administrators, KordaMentha, which estimated that at least $300 million in new capital was required to maintain its 24 almond and olive tree growing schemes.

Both McGrathNicol and Great Southern's administrators, Ferrier Hodgson, are now assessing the financial status of each of its projects to work out which are viable and which have little chance of surviving.

They will eventually fall into three categories: those that can be harvested and even produce a decent return for their investors in line with original forecasts; those that may still be viable with the support of a new and financially strong responsible entity to manage them; those that will have to be wound up.

The oldest of Great Southern's schemes, including its 1998 and 1999 pulpwood forestry operations that are about to be harvested, are the least affected by the company's collapse.

But the prospects of those that followed, and in particular its most recent schemes, is less certain with some investors now having to face up to the fact there is little value left in their horticultural holdings.

The receivers and adminis-trators hope to be in a position over the next three months to give a view about the best outcome for each scheme. However, Great Southern's complex financial structure and the multitude of investment schemes means that it might not be before the end of the year before investor growers get to vote on what should happen to their individual projects.

wooduk · 11 June 2009

wooduk said:
ATTENTION !!! GREAT SOUTHERN INVESTORS
IWC – AN INDEPENENT WOODLOT CO-OPEATIVE

TOWNSHEND PRUDENTIAL PTY. LTD. INVITE WOODLOT OWNERS IN THE GREAT SOUTHERN PROJECTS TO JOIN IN A FARMING CO-OPERATIVE TO EXPLORE THE VARIOUS PROSPECTS OF THE PROTECTION AND MANAGEMENT OF THEIR WOODLOTS.
THIS IS INIATED BY THE GROWERS AND INVESTORS IN THE TREES TO JOIN AND FORM THEIR INTERESTS AS A COLLECTIVE FOR THE ON-GOING MANAGEMENT OF THEIR WOODLOTS.
EXPRESSIONS OF INTEREST SHOULD BE DIRECTED AS FOLLOWS:-
TOWNSHEND PRUDENTIAL PTY LTD PHONE 03 98796555
email: Townshend@immm.com.au
email: bzm2003@bigpond.com AFSL 223947
Townshend Prudential P/L

PH: 61 03 98796555 FAX: 61 03 98794466 Townshend Prudential Pty Ltd
Townshend Prudential- Financial Planners ‘The Bottom Line is “YOU’.

IF ever a time was right,or in fact past the time to get organised and act as one voice collectively it is NOW.

Not to tomorrow,not next week,not next month.This iniated by INVESTORS by and for every grower and investor to register and be pro-activein protecting their OWN interests.So far the response is good,but we need more folks as we as a collective have more clout to deal with the bank.

The alternative is YOU the investor being beholden to the bank with a bad debt loan that has no end,as it is possible another entity will have on going costs for THEIR own pockets to line.

Is there a cost to this indepenent woodlot co-op?

Yes---The cost of buying the land if it needs be,
On going pursuit of legal action(remember this will take years to sort out)
The managing of the Co-op

BUT,these costs as a collective can be minimised by the swell of numbers.

We are the responsible entity,we mange it ---the co-op,we the collective protect the individual investments

The Shadow · 11 June 2009

wooduk said:
Read and weep,all they have done is cut timbercorp and pasted great southern, sloppy journalism,and also plagirism.But it gets better there is another news article of a director resigning after board discussion over young flogging shares and touting GTP is great when it was known that it was in trouble before 1998!

Wooduk,

The AFR article was very succinct as it specifically related to the affairs of GS.

It was quite specific on the board dealings (bullying) of its then Managing Director who not only mislead and decieved his own board but also its business partners (financial Planners & Accountants) and their Investors.

The article and in particular the Journalist had established specific facts about the board dealings of one John Young and how the board was coerced into not disclosing material facts that would have significantly impacted on the sales of its projects. Material facts = No sales!!

This is an area that will and be vigorously persued by IMF to both ASIC and the administrator. It will certainly be among one of the items raised in a court action.

Mark my words, people will and should go to jail over these deceptive actions.

Whislt there are significant similarities with Timbercorp, to GS credit they did maintain seperate trusts for each project with audit accounts and maintenance funds in place for each. Timbercorpse adpopted the bucket accounting approach where all income and expenses where paid from one account. A nightmare for the Administrator to work thru and totally against how MIS projects should be run.

I also understand that IMF is taking up the fight in a class action to over turn the Cattle Project - before it is sold. There are specific issues which have the likely outcome of making this transaction invalid. Watch this space for more info.

As I have said previously, at this point in time no one has lost anything (Project transform and shareholders aside) and this will take alot more time to play itself out. As long as Investors band together to delay and challenge the Administrators & Recievers. I firmly believe we have an asset in these projects and as long as they are in the ground and growing and a new R/E or end purchaser is found then we shall be okay.

Shadow

cathadfab · 11 June 2009

Forenth said:
I'm not an AFR subscriber. What's the gist of it? Is there anything more than what The Australian posted?

You can sign up for a free 14 day trial and cancel at anytime in the 14 days to avoid charges.

The gist of the piece is that IMF are alleging that the swap of shares for cattle was illegal for several reasons. They hope to challenge this but need cattle investor's support.

If you are interested in information, they will send out a pack via email or snail mail and their contact numbers are listed on their website at http://www.imf.com.au/contact.asp

Hope this helps someone

KJL · 11 June 2009

Learningman said:
Can anyone recommend a good lawyer to seek legal advice ? I am not sure how to move forward given my situation.

What are others doing ????

Sorry Learningman - have already taken legal advice with a group of other investors, and part of that legal advice is to currently say "no comment" - I'm not meaning to be obstructive or secretive or dramatic here, just following what I'm told and am paying for (less than one month's interest, to put things in some sort of context), but the approach being taken is not dissimilar to what was discussed in an earlier post.

Will post additional info if or when I get the all clear to do so. Safe to say that I maintain my view that something fishy has gone on, and I don't want to just sit and take it.

In particular, I genuinely do feel for you having a 7 figure investment (gulp!) but without wishing to sound negative, I don't hold out any hope of getting any return at all on my investments - my aim is to mount an argument which means not having to pay the loans, cut my losses and take it as a very expensive and painful lesson, although what I can learn after how they were promoted and rated, I'm still figuring out...

Good luck all.

jiml · 12 June 2009

As a shareholder I have done my dough and as my entry into GTP was purely speculative I bear the loss - you win some lose some. The receivers will no doubt sell the assets with a view to recovering as much as they can for secured creditors, to wit the banks. Who buys the land is relatively unimportant if the contracts (between GTP and investors) are held to be water tight. Just have to find someone to manage and harvest the plantations. Probably OK for timber but if Timbercorp is any indication, the horticultural stuff is valueless. As the new owners will pick up th coppice lot on the second rotation, the land may be more valuable than currently perceived.

wooduk · 12 June 2009

The Shadow said:
wooduk said:

Read and weep,all they have done is cut timbercorp and pasted great southern, sloppy journalism,and also plagirism.But it gets better there is another news article of a director resigning after board discussion over young flogging shares and touting GTP is great when it was known that it was in trouble before 1998!

Wooduk,

The AFR article was very succinct as it specifically related to the affairs of GS.

It was quite specific on the board dealings (bullying) of its then Managing Director who not only mislead and decieved his own board but also its business partners (financial Planners & Accountants) and their Investors.

The article and in particular the Journalist had established specific facts about the board dealings of one John Young and how the board was coerced into not disclosing material facts that would have significantly impacted on the sales of its projects. Material facts = No sales!!

This is an area that will and be vigorously persued by IMF to both ASIC and the administrator. It will certainly be among one of the items raised in a court action.

Mark my words, people will and should go to jail over these deceptive actions.

Whislt there are significant similarities with Timbercorp, to GS credit they did maintain seperate trusts for each project with audit accounts and maintenance funds in place for each. Timbercorpse adpopted the bucket accounting approach where all income and expenses where paid from one account. A nightmare for the Administrator to work thru and totally against how MIS projects should be run.

I also understand that IMF is taking up the fight in a class action to over turn the Cattle Project - before it is sold. There are specific issues which have the likely outcome of making this transaction invalid. Watch this space for more info.

As I have said previously, at this point in time no one has lost anything (Project transform and shareholders aside) and this will take alot more time to play itself out. As long as Investors band together to delay and challenge the Administrators & Recievers. I firmly believe we have an asset in these projects and as long as they are in the ground and growing and a new R/E or end purchaser is found then we shall be okay.

Shadow

Click to expand...

Agree Shadow,but it is only a matter of time,and that time is fast coming that we will be bemoaning the fact we should have done this or that.
Instead of reactive,we need to be proactive,and make it no secret that in the scenario that is or will play out is the fact that me and others are left with a debt and nothing else.
There are no free lunches with what I say in so far that collectively going after the land and all the assets that belong to you the investor is and should be a priority.
I can see that it would be difficult for people to see how they would pay this extra cost burden,but Townsend Prudential are doing it and if you forward project say 10 years,apply broadly asset prices doubling every ten years on the capital of your outlay,coppice returns,the big ticket item carbon credits,diversification in other agricultural products,and I do not mean marijuana crops-----and NO!,I do not take and I am not on it while Itype this.

At the end of the day,as our investments maturing in less than 10 years,in fact some are ready now,and cutting John Young off at the knees indirectly I only see an opportunity that is difficult to start,but the out comes are multiple positives.

I do not want Mac,British,Jap,or the Russian Mafia to take what is rightfully and legally yours.

brty · 12 June 2009

Hi,
Back at post 1126 on page 57 of this thread I stated the following......

This stock now looks toast.

Falling below 50 cents is disastrous for the holders of mis units. Plus there is no incentive for anyone to take up new mis schemes.

The value of a timberlot, original cost ~what $3300 less the tax benefit of $1600 is now ~$300?.

I cannot see how this can end positively for holders of the timberlots or shareholders.

My only 'interest' in this company is that it was my pick in the september competition, where I stated it would either double or was toast.

I like just a little bit of butter and lots of apricot jam.

brty

That was in September last year. Despite thousands of words since, (and thinking about it I hope ASIC looks up the identity of "Investor1" and his/her input here), nothing has changed except for the above becoming fact rather than proposition.

Looking back, even if all the schemes had voted yes, there would still be no money to carry on operations, just more assets for sale, mostly still unsold.
It will be very interesting to see what the courts/administrators unwind in regard to past actions by management, but I don't see much coming back to investors as a result, if anything.

brty

jiml · 12 June 2009

Yep, BRTY you are (were) spot on. If I had looked at the cost structure and were aware that only 65% of unit holders' cash was going into the ground and that ATO scare re horticultural/cattle investments was leading to a loss of confidence in the industry and hence reduced investment with a consequence of GTP unable to roll over loans...plus the economic down turn, I would have been out of GTP before you could say 'shake the sauce bottle'

Forenth · 14 June 2009

Townshend Prudential - Scammers?

I know there are people out there who are going to try to profit from the collapse of GTP. John Young getting them to sell him the $25 million of loans for $9 million just days beforehand is a good example. No putting it out to tender, no offering it to those who took out the loans, just grabbing it off the company books for some profiteering despite being the one largely responsible for the problem in the first place. Would that be insider trading?

Anyhow, I was interested to see what this Townshend Prudential idea of a growers co-op might be about, so I contacted them. I got an email today, 2 emails actually. The first was missing attachments so the second was sent dutifully. When I opened them the first was a 'you must act immediately or you'll lose everything! (Plus a set of steak knives)' Demtel offer designed to provoke panic. Unprofessionally presented, poorly worded, misspelt, poor punctuation and grammer. No letterhead of any kind just a plain page. It could have been written by a 12 year old.

The second attachment labelled "Tax Invoice" again has no letterhead of any kind and is just a form for credit card details. Nothing else.

There was no information about a co-op, nothing included about how it might work, be set up, no questions about what investments of mine are affected or could be included. Only the 'gives us your credit card details'. Not even how much things would cost. It was asking for a blank cheque.

Wooduk, is this a scam? Its SO BADLY PRESENTED AND MISSING EVERY DETAIL that my only thought is its some teenager in his room trying to cash in. I am EXTREMELY unlikely to do anything with this mob if this is the level of their ability, and without any other facts or evidence I warn others to be wary of them as well.

moreld · 14 June 2009

I can't find Townsend Prudential Pty Ltd listed as a Victorian business.
They are not listed in the yellow pages.
They have no website and no link of any credibility on the internet.

Ripped Off · 14 June 2009

moreld said:
I can't find Townsend Prudential Pty Ltd listed as a Victorian business.
They are not listed in the yellow pages.
They have no website and no link of any credibility on the internet.

Its TOWNSHEND PRUDENTIAL PTY LTD
They do exist but I cant post the links I found.

Townshend & Associates Pty Ltd

Phone: 03 9879 6555

Fax: 03 9879 4466

I will be ringing Mr Bob Wilson tomorrow to get the facts.

I registered for electronic notification from the administrators, have got nothing so far, only what you can find on their web page.
Information to investors is non existant, can someone list who the class action lawyers are, as well as any other helpful info so we can all pull together.

Another thing that worries me is who is going to end up with the sustaintial
assets (and my Trees) at a bargain price. Hopefully not another GSL insider.
This is like "Insider Trading" but a lot worse, gee.. they hung Rivkin for $300 odd... ????
Corporate thieving B#*tards should go to jail and there assets siezed and returned to the rightful owners.
The Corporations act need changing badly to stop this happening and make Directors Liable for dodgy deals and lining their own pockets.

Nobody is worth 5/600,K a year for pushing paper.

I will be going Co-op or class action.

Extremely disgruntled
Paul

cheeyeen · 14 June 2009

Not sure it is useful but you can do a search at www.asic.gov.au to see some basic information about the company. Both TOWNSHEND PRUDENTIAL PTY LTD and TOWNSHEND & ASSOCIATES PTY LTD were registered under different names before. They both have some charges registered on 10/07/2006. I must have remembered incorrectly. I thought I would be able to see the director name or something..

Forenth · 15 June 2009

Some more info on Townshend Prudential from www.abr.business.gov.au:

ABN status From To
Active 01 Jul 2000 (current)

Entity names From To
TOWNSHEND PRUDENTIAL PTY LTD 06 Dec 2004 (current)
CATFISH MULTIMEDIA PTY LTD 19 Mar 2002 06 Dec 2004
D CAMERON SHOWER SCREENS PTY LTD 01 Jul 2000 19 Mar 2002

Entity type
Australian Private Company

GST status From To
Active 01 Oct 2006 (current)

Main business locations From To
VIC 3106 19 Mar 2002 (current)

Trading name(s) From To
FORMATION BUSINESS SERVICES 19 Mar 2002 (current)

Deductible Gift Recipient
Not entitled to receive tax deductible gifts

ACN or ARBN:
082868933 Search ASIC

Does that really say shower screens? This has previously been a multimedia and shower screen company? No wonder their email was so unimpressive. After dealing with financial advisors and GTP I'm going to do background checks on anyone wanting to have anything to do with my woodlots.

So are these guys legit and competent? So far they haven't presented themselves as such. Yes, I'm suspicious of any group telling me they'll act in my best interests. I've heard that before from you know whom.

GTP - Great Southern Plantations

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