Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Global Warming - How Valid and Serious?

What do you think of global warming?

  • There is no reliable evidence that indicates global warming (GW)

    Votes: 8 5.2%

  • There is GW, but the manmade contribution is UNPROVEN (brd),- and we should ignore it

    Votes: 12 7.8%

  • Ditto - but we should act to reduce greenhouse gas effects anyway

    Votes: 46 30.1%

  • There is GW, the manmade contribution is PROVEN (brd), and the matter is not urgent

    Votes: 6 3.9%

  • Ditto but corrective global action is a matter of urgency

    Votes: 79 51.6%

  • Other (plus reasons)

    Votes: 7 4.6%
  • Total voters
    153
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A classic example of what I don't like about the greens. We've got an outright crisis of national significance with energy in WA and all they're worried about is literally a bit of smoke from a power station that's quite some distance away from anyone.

Somehow I don't think all those who stand to lose jobs in everything from mining to tourism will share this concern. Nor will the 10%+ of WA businesses, that's all businesses not just mining and energy, that stand to close their doors completely.

And in any event, locals managed quite well from the mid-1960's until last year with it - a couple of extra months isn't going to hurt.

Oh well, it beats the usual nonsense claims of an energy surplus I suppose.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/13/2274017.htm
 
meanwhile, climate change messiah and general bullsh!t artist, Al Gore seems to be not overly concerned about consuming massive amounts of energy.

In the past year, Gore’s home burned through 213,210 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electricity, enough to power 232 average American households for a month.
...
Since taking steps to make his home more environmentally-friendly last June, Gore devours an average of 17,768 kWh per month –1,638 kWh more energy per month than before the renovations – at a cost of $16,533. By comparison, the average American household consumes 11,040 kWh in an entire year, according to the Energy Information Administration.
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http://tennesseepolicy.org/main/article.php?article_id=764

hypocrite of the highest order...

one can only assume he knows the garbage he talks and the hysteria he seeks to generate is based largely on questionable science..
 
Smurf1976 said:
A classic example of what I don't like about the greens. We've got an outright crisis of national significance with energy in WA and all they're worried about is literally a bit of smoke from a power station that's quite some distance away from anyone.
Click to expand...

Its not only that, I hate how they try and show the cliche pictures of a nuclear power station that is emmiting loads of "danger greenhouse smoke" into the atmosphere. When in actual fact the "smoke" that is pouring out is just steam (yes water that has just been heated up).

perfect example of this kind of ignorance is here
http://www.liberatefreedom.com/archive/2007/02/25/nuclear-power-is-not-the-answer/
 
(naked shorts: no argument from me on your post btw)

Just heard this on the radio..... How good is this kid ;)
from 1992 - David Suzuki's lill girl, Severn - then a 12 year old, now an adult of course.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Cullis-Suzuki
Severn Cullis-Suzuki (born November 30, 1979 in Vancouver, Canada) is an environmental activist, speaker, television host and author. Born to writer Tara Elizabeth Cullis and geneticist and environmental activist David Suzuki, she has spoken around the world about environmental issues, urging listeners to define their values, act with the future in mind, and take individual responsibility.

Biography
Cullis-Suzuki was born and raised in Vancouver, Canada.[1] At the age of nine, she founded the Environmental Children's Organization (ECO), a group of children dedicated to learning and teaching other kids about environmental issues.[2] In 1992, at the age of 12, Cullis-Suzuki raised money with members of ECO, to attend the Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro. Along with group members Michelle Quigg, Vanessa Suttie, and Morgan Geisler, Cullis-Suzuki presented environmental issues from a youth perspective at the summit, where she was applauded for a speech to the delegates
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Herewith that speech .......
Since then she has graduated from Yale in ecology and evolutionary biology etc.

Severn Suzuki speaking at UN Earth Summit 1992

If you don't know how to fix it, then stop breaking it..

Be the Change song/Severn Suzuki's message
Fri, 28/09/2007 - 1:35am — Anja Light
Be the Change
By Pacha (age 6) and Anja Light, inspired by Severn Suzuki’s address to the UN Earth Summit in 1992 (see below for entire message).

I am only a child,
Yet I know we’re all part of one family -
We are all one.

I am only a child,
And I can’t understand why we waste so much -
While so many children go hungry.

Chorus.
If you really love us, if you really care
Please help us save the Earth.
If you really love us, if you really care
Please help us be the change.
- help us be the change

I am only a child,
Yet I know if all the war money was spent on peace -
What a wonderful world it would be.

I am only a child,
And I know you are what you do and not what you say -
what you do makes me cry at night.

Chorus
So, If you really love us, if you really care
Please help us save the Earth. (yeah)
If you really love us, if you really care
Please help us be the change. (yeah)

Repeat Chorus

Message from Severn Suzuki to the world leaders at the Earth Summit in Rio, Brazil, 1992.

Hello, I’m Severn Suzuki speaking for E.C.O. – The Environmental Children’s organization. We are a group of twelve and thirteen-year-olds from Canada trying to make a difference: Vanessa Suttie, Morgan Geisler, Michelle Quigg and me
.
We raised all the money ourselves to come six thousand miles to tell you adults you must change your ways. Coming here today, I have no hidden agenda. I am fighting for my future. Losing my future is not like losing an
election or a few points on the stock market. I am here to speak for all generations to come.

I am here to speak on behalf of the starving children around the world whose cries go unheard. I am here to speak for the countless animals dying across this planet because they have nowhere left to go. We cannot afford to be not heard.

I am afraid to go out in the sun now because of the holes in the ozone. I am afraid to breathe the air because I don’t know what chemicals are in it.

I used to go fishing in Vancouver with my dad until just a few years ago we found the fish full of cancers. And now we hear about animals and plants going extinct every day – vanishing forever.

In my life, I have dreamt of seeing the great herds of wild animals, jungles and rainforests full of birds and butterflies, but now I wonder if they will even exist for my children to see.

Did you have to worry about these little things when you were my age? All this is happening before our eyes and yet we act as if we have all the time we want and all the solutions.

I’m only a child and I don’t have all the solutions, but I want you to realize, neither do you!
You don’t know how to fix the holes in our ozone layer.
You don’t know how to bring salmon back up a dead stream.
You don’t know how to bring back an animal now extinct.
And you can’t bring back forests that once grew where there is now desert.
If you don’t know how to fix it, please stop breaking it!

Here, you may be delegates of your governments, business people, organizers , reporters or politicians – but really you are mothers and fathers, brothers and sister, aunts and uncles – and all of you are somebody’s child.

I’m only a child yet I know we are all part of a family, five billion strong, in fact, 30 million species strong and we all share the same air, water and soil – borders and governments will never change that. I’m only a child yet I know we are all in this together and should act as one single world towards one single goal. In my anger, I am not blind, and in my fear, I am not afraid to tell the world how I feel.

In my country, we make so much waste, we buy and throw away, buy and throw away, and yet northern countries will not share with the needy. Even when we have more than enough, we are afraid to lose some of our wealth, afraid to share.

In Canada, we live the privileged life, with plenty of food, water and shelter – we have watches, bicycles, computers and television sets. Two days ago here in Brazil, we were shocked when we spent some time with some children living on the streets. And this is what one child told us: “I wish I was rich and if I were, I would give all the street children food, clothes, medicine, shelter and love and affection.” If a child on the street who has nothing, is willing to share, why are we who have everything still so greedy? I can’t stop thinking that these children are my age, that it makes a tremendous difference where you are born, that I could be one of those children living in the Favellas of Rio; I could be a child starving in Somalia; a victim of war in the Middle East or a beggar in India.

I’m only a child yet I know if all the money spent on war was spent on ending poverty and finding environmental answers, what a wonderful place this earth would be!

At school, even in kindergarten, you teach us to behave in the world. You teach us:
not to fight with others,
to work things out,
to respect others,
to clean up our mess,
not to hurt other creatures
to share – not be greedy
Then why do you go out and do the things you tell us not to do?

Do not forget why you’re attending these conferences, who you’re doing this for – we are your own children.

You are deciding what kind of world we will grow up in. Parents should be able to comfort their children by saying “everything’s going to be alright’, “we’re doing the best we can” and “it’s not the end of the world”. But I don’t think you can say that to us anymore. Are we even on your list of priorities? My father always says “You are what you do, not what you say.” Well, what you do makes me cry at night. you grown ups say you love us. I challenge you, please make your actions reflect your words.

Thank you for listening.
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PeterBrookes385_365677a.jpg
 
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/11/2300650.htm
The Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has accused the Opposition of having a new position on an emissions trading scheme every 24 hours.

Mr Rudd has concluded his overseas visit to the G8 in Japan and to Malaysia.

Climate change and discussions over reducing greenhouse gas emissions formed a significant part of the agenda, and on the Australia Network's Newshour program he has brought his focus back to the domestic political debate over the details of an emissions trading scheme.

"We are adopting a calm, measured, sensible, responsible approach to this great challenge of climate change," he said.

"They adopt a new position every 24 hours. Who knows where they stand on this great challenge of our age?"
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wayneL said:
Andrew Bolt highlights the deleterious effect of AGW doom-mongering and cuts through the GW crap:

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23991257-25717,00.html

An excellent article full of uncommon sense.
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Is it all crap though, Wayne?

NEW evidence has emerged that a large plate of floating ice shelf attached to Antarctica is breaking up, in a troubling sign of global warming, the European Space Agency (ESA) said today. http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24002707-5005961,00.html

Last night on the ABC's QandA program, I thought Andrew Bolt did himself and his fellow "skeptics" a great disservice. His smirking outburst about how "nothing is happening in Antarctica" took the cake for me. He might be eating humble pie today after this latest SCIENTIFIC evidence.....

The other point I'd like to make is that everyone seems to be hooked up on a GLOBAL WARMING theme. In fact, "climate change" that leads to massive polar melting (ie a gazillion new icebergs over time roaming towards the equatorial regions, to finally melt - that process now appears to be well and truly started) will likely mean coastal areas of northern Europe, Northern America, southern Australia and South America may well be plunged initially (in the short to medium term) into far more frigid local climates as local sea temperatures in these regions cool significantly with the sheer mass of melting sea ice.

Of course, one benefit will be that Dick Smith would eventually be able to tow an iceberg into Sydney Harbour to ease the fresh water crisis.... LOL

Eventually, when all the ice has gone one would expect the global rate of temperature rise to increase rather rapidly. Glad I won't be physically around in 200 years time..... It will be enough for my remaining molecules and atoms to endure.....!!


AJ
 
Aussiejeff said:
Is it all crap though, Wayne?

NEW evidence has emerged that a large plate of floating ice shelf attached to Antarctica is breaking up, in a troubling sign of global warming, the European Space Agency (ESA) said today. http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24002707-5005961,00.html

Last night on the ABC's QandA program, I thought Andrew Bolt did himself and his fellow "skeptics" a great disservice. His smirking outburst about how "nothing is happening in Antarctica" took the cake for me. He might be eating humble pie today after this latest SCIENTIFIC evidence.....

The other point I'd like to make is that everyone seems to be hooked up on a GLOBAL WARMING theme. In fact, "climate change" that leads to massive polar melting (ie a gazillion new icebergs over time roaming towards the equatorial regions, to finally melt - that process now appears to be well and truly started) will likely mean coastal areas of northern Europe, Northern America, southern Australia and South America may well be plunged initially (in the short to medium term) into far more frigid local climates as local sea temperatures in these regions cool significantly with the sheer mass of melting sea ice.

Of course, one benefit will be that Dick Smith would eventually be able to tow an iceberg into Sydney Harbour to ease the fresh water crisis.... LOL

Eventually, when all the ice has gone one would expect the global rate of temperature rise to increase rather rapidly. Glad I won't be physically around in 200 years time..... It will be enough for my remaining molecules and atoms to endure.....!!


AJ
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Well if it isn't, the property bulls have dropped dropped a clanger about waterfront properties in the RE thread. Maybe we can pick up some 50k beachfront blocks after all :cool:

On another front Anti AGW science is picking up some momentum over here... to the point that the pollies have had to modify their language from "when" to "if". Links as I run across them.
 
Aussiejeff said:
Is it all crap though, Wayne?

NEW evidence has emerged that a large plate of floating ice shelf attached to Antarctica is breaking up, in a troubling sign of global warming, the European Space Agency (ESA) said today.
Click to expand...

well thats interesting. is it equally amazing and scary that the antarctic ice shelf has been breaking up from time to time every single year?

heres a few snippets of info that (unfortunately?) dont feed the hypists hunger for more doom and gloom stories:

Antarctica overall has cooled measurably during the last 35 years - despite a global average increase in air temperature of 0.06 degrees Celsius during the 20th century - making it unique among the Earth's continental landmasses, according to a paper published today in the online version of Nature.

Researchers with the National Science Foundation (NSF) Longterm Ecological Research (LTER) site in Antarctica's Dry Valleys - a perpetually snow-free, mountainous area adjacent to McMurdo Sound - argue in the paper that long-term data from weather stations across the continent, coupled with a separate set of measurements from the Dry Valleys, confirm each other and corroborate the continental cooling trend.
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http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20020015034521data_trunc_sys.shtml

and
The high-profile collapse of some Antarctica’s ice shelves is likely the result of natural current fluctuations, not global warming, says a leading British expert on polar climates.

This surprising finding is supported by analysis of data from the European Space Agency’s ERS-1 satellite, according to Duncan Wingham, Professor of Climate Physics at University College London. The data, measuring changes in ice thickness across the Antarctic ice sheet using the polar orbiting satellite, show areas of growth from snowfall are as common as areas of decline.
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http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/24/ice_shelf_collapse/

sorry to burst the bubble

Bolt is right, nothing is happening in antarctica.
 
crikey.com ? - they seem to be pretty well respected yes?

I mean cut through the bolt nonsense etc yes?

http://www.crikey.com.au/Garnaut-Report/20080702-The-changing-state-of-the-climate-system.html

Revisiting the science on global warming: it ain't pretty
2 July 08
With the release of the Garnaut Climate Change Review’s draft report on Friday, it’s worth quickly revisiting the reason for all of this -- the changing state of the climate system -- and take a look at a few significant developments since the hand-down of the latest IPCC reports.
A topic that raised a few eyebrows in the scientific community late last year was the 2007 decline in Arctic sea ice extent -- here are the long-term satellite derived record of the annual minimum in sea ice extent (i.e. ocean area with at least 15% ice cover), and minimum geographical sea ice extent for 2007 and the previous record of 2005:
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the graph shows area of arctic ice 1978 to 2007
the left map is Sept 2007,
the right map is Sept 2005 :eek:

PS the arctic is, was, always has been predicted by the IPCC to be in a more dire predicament than the antarctic :2twocents
 

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2020hindsight said:
crikey.com ? - they seem to be pretty well respected yes?

I mean cut through the bolt nonsense etc yes?



the graph shows area of arctic ice 1978 to 2007
the left map is Sept 2007,
the right map is Sept 2005 :eek:

PS the arctic is, was, always has been predicted by the IPCC to be in a more dire predicament than the antarctic :2twocents
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I so detest manipulative data mining.

Let us view the ice pack image from yesterday, already past summer soltice, and compare them to the same date ten years ago.

Crikey loses any semblance of credibility and respect.

One swallow does not a summer make 2020.

5kriuw.png
 
I'm seeing a very large increase in the number of people I meet who don't believe the whole thing. A year ago it was probably 99% acceptance, now I'd say that's down to maybe 50% and in freefall.

Why? Simply because the whole thing is being pushed just so hard right now which naturally makes most people suspicious. It's everywhere - you just can't live half a day without hearing about it somewhere.

Right or wrong, I think this issue is very close to burnout as far as the general public is concerned simply because there's so much hysteria surrounding it whilst so many claims of "proof of climate change" have turned to dust already.

The truth? I really don't know. But as far as action is concerned, the more the issue is ramped in the near term, the more certain I am that we'll do nothing about it in the long term. That's largely because the much hyped actions needed to meet the short term demands for emissions cuts preclude holding them down in the long term. They don't scale.
 
wayneL said:
I so detest manipulative data mining.

Let us view the ice pack image from yesterday, already past summer soltice, and compare them to the same date ten years ago.
5kriuw.png
Click to expand...
That clearly shows an increase in ice cover to my eyes...
 
Garpal Gumnut said:
Any photos from 1660?

gg
Click to expand...

An excellent point gg.

The truth is we only have pictures going back to 1979... 29 years.

A statistically insignificant sample.

However if we had pictures from 1260, we might just be able to pick up the luxuriant green around the south coast of Greenland where the Vikings had farming communities and by logical extrapolation, a much smaller Arctic sea ice pack than today.
 

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