General Wisdom and Thinking Big

[Knobby22]

I'm more concerned with the breakdown of society, not much fun driving a nice Merc if you are living in a dangerous community.
Too hard, just look at the US if you want to see where we're headed.

You are right. I think Australia has handled this quite well in the past compared to other countries but we seem to be losing it. We use to have lots of public housing but not much gets built anymore. You see the younger ones on the Streets. What about the elderly? They do it tough also.

When I was helping at St Vincent De Paul years ago I met a Doctor who was living on the street. He had lost it, I don't know how and his own family had cast him out. So many people now have poor excuses for family or are of really small families where the support doesn't exist. It is hard.

One problem with the modern world is that it seems to making more people mentally sick.
I think the modern ideas of a good life are wrong and until that changes it will get worse.

 

[MrBurns]

One problem with the modern world is that it seems to making more people mentally sick.
I think the modern ideas of a good life are wrong and until that changes it will get worse.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Knobby.

 

[sptrawler]

Perhaps if the Govt was more involved, if we hadnt sold all our esseantial services, the Govt could employ more rather then employing less as they do now to chase profit.
But Govt is notoriously bad at running anything.

We discussed this on another thread, however it is probably pertinent here. The government is heavily involved in education and throw more and more money at it, that doesn't mean the outcome is any better.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/business/a/-/national/16161554/adult-literacy-maths-shock/

Untill the root cause is addressed nothing changes, untill the teachers and curriculum want to focus on core academic skills, nothing will change. Blind Freddy can see that, you don't need a report.
The same will be the case with your street people, untill those people want change, who are you or I to say they must change.
What if they are happier doing what they are doing, rather than conforming to your or my idea of what they should be doing?

True there would be a hard core that are lost but I think if it was a priority and run properly many would benefit.
I'm not just being all big hearted here, I would rather live in a "better" society.

Again it is your idea of a better society, it may not be theirs.
Your main worry is that poverty may end up affecting your security, well that can't be changed.IMO

 

[MrBurns]

Your main worry is that poverty may end up affecting your security, well that can't be changed.IMO

My family, your family.......but can't be helped I guess, if you dont like it move somewhere else.

 

[sptrawler]

My family, your family.......but can't be helped I guess, if you dont like it move somewhere else.

Exactly, why do you think they have secure estates in South Africa, Zimbabwa etc.
One would think with black empowerment and the abolishment of apartheid that the situation would improve. The people now have affirmative action laws whereby the black Africans are treated preferentially for employment opportunities.
So do you think it has turned it around over there?

 

[Knobby22]

Exactly, why do you think they have secure estates in South Africa, Zimbabwa etc.
One would think with black empowerment and the abolishment of apartheid that the situation would improve. The people now have affirmative action laws whereby the black Africans are treated preferentially for employment opportunities.
So do you think it has turned it around over there?

That happened because of mistreatment and poor socila cohesion it will take a lot of time to turn around.

I am proud that gated communities are rare in Australia and would hate to see them proliferate.

I can't think of a more obvious way to show that Australians have given up on equality for all and are setting up a class system. For you to even think that way makes me worry for the future of Australia. I hope I misunderstood you.

 

[Julia]

Thanks for trashing this thread fellas, I thought it might lead to some "outside the square" thoughts but if the best you can do is pick your noses well...........

Good for you, Mr Burns, in reminding people that any thread is only as good as the contributions to it.
The results of your intervention below speak to this.

It's hard enough getting fully functioning people to eat sensibly, not drink too much etc. Even harder dealing with those who have already fallen through the cracks.

Sure it's hard. But let's not just write off a whole section of society who are where they are often as a result of uncontrollable circumstances.

Sorry to be blunt but these guys don't pay tax or vote and are a minority. Why will the government care?

And that, unfortunately, is how governments see it.

I agree with you that something should be done but how is a different question. Personally I think the money should be coming from welfare itself. I think there are enough people on welfare that don't necessarily need it. Cut this down and help people that need to be helped.

+1. Far too much wasted on vote buying that could be used to address real needs for welfare.

I'm not sure though that many of the disaffected that Burnsie started talking about will be very responsive to traditional church approach.

Agree. Though some of the churches, viz particularly the Salvos are terrific at running non-judgmental programs which are genuinely helpful. Some of the problem here is - as happens across society - they are subject to abuse.

btw, I also have my doubts about many - NOT ALL! - social workers.

Ah, lots of qualifications, minimal life experience.

There lies the crux of the matter: Once you have a generation weaned off work, dropped out of mainstream society and used to street life and associated addiction, you've lost the plot - including all future generations of that subgroup. The best suggestion I can come up with to reduce the number of kids dropping out, is a new approach to schooling. Reward performance; teach responsibility; set achievable and measurable targets.

Sounds sensible, doesn't it. But the curriculum is already crowded out by studies in political correctness, climate change etc etc.

"Tough love" and providing productive work (as opposed to "social studies", basket weaving or "street art") may offer some kids a successful way out of gutter life. But how do you give them the incentive, the role models, the targets to aspire to? We have started teaching kids their rights to abundance. Nobody will be able to rein that attitude back in by balancing each right with commensurate responsibility, duty, effort.

It does happen, but is woefully underfunded. We ran a mentoring program here for about five years before funding was withdrawn where we picked up those kids who couldn't or wouldn't stay at school. They could learn non-academic, work related skills with one on one help. Sure, a few dropped out but there was around 80% success rate.

Life's about choices, it is very seldom a person can't change his or her cicumstances in Australia.

More often than not this takes personal sacrifice, not everyone is prepared to do that.

Barring mental and physical illness, that's true.

Sometimes, though, a sequence of events just becomes too much for an individual and - without support at the crucial time - they simply cannot cope. We should not just discard these people.

 

[sptrawler]

That happened because of mistreatment and poor socila cohesion it will take a lot of time to turn around.

I am proud that gated communities are rare in Australia and would hate to see them proliferate.

I can't think of a more obvious way to show that Australians have given up on equality for all and are setting up a class system. For you to even think that way makes me worry for the future of Australia. I hope I misunderstood you.

I'm sure you have misunderstood me. I was saying the poor and oppressed were given the control and power to bring about change, I don't think it has helped.

O.K take our aboriginal situation, there have been many different approaches taken to improve their lot.
None have worked and it hasn't been from a lack of spending.

I would love to be able to make: fat people thin, anerexic people fatter, lazy people more energetic, people with a dependency personality less addictive, poor people rich.
Eventually I believe a lot of these traits, that cause people to be different, will be solved through genetic engineering.
Untill then, I can't help, i've lost the batteries for my magic wand.

 

[Knobby22]

I am glad I misunderstood.
I thought that aboriginal initiative has had some success.
In any case, when you try to change things you are bound to have failures. Surely that doesn't mean you just do nothing?

 

[sptrawler]

I am glad I misunderstood.
I thought that aboriginal initiative has had some success.
In any case, when you try to change things you are bound to have failures. Surely that doesn't mean you just do nothing?

No your right, I'm still looking for batteries.

It comes to a point where, you have to decide.

Do you throw more money, or demand more responsibility.

 

[MrBurns]

If we're going to dream why not make it big
People say govt should stay out of certain things but what if we had govt that operated with the efficiency of a business
We could decriminalise drugs give them free to users put them on a register and insist they join a rehab program
All drug related crime would cease , imagine that
Many programs could be put into action to clean up society
An efficient machine with almost unlimited funds could change things
But we have the system we have and that's that...but what if we could change it
Dream over..........

 

[sptrawler]

Barring mental and physical illness, that's true.

Sometimes, though, a sequence of events just becomes too much for an individual and - without support at the crucial time - they simply cannot cope. We should not just discard these people.

Agreed.
These people aren't discarded and I would think if they were making a sucess of their lives prior to the unforseen sequence of events, they will be successful afterwards.

 

[sptrawler]

If we're going to dream why not make it big
People say govt should stay out of certain things but what if we had govt that operated with the efficiency of a business
We could decriminalise drugs give them free to users put them on a register and insist they join a rehab program
All drug related crime would cease , imagine that
Many programs could be put into action to clean up society
An efficient machine with almost unlimited funds could change things
But we have the system we have and that's that...but what if we could change it
Dream over..........

The cost of drugs eg mull would fall to nothing and it would be cheap as, compared to alchohol.IMO

Everyone, except from the asian students, would be sitting outside the school tokin on.lol

How do you come up with your outcomes.

 

[MrBurns]

The cost of drugs eg mull would fall to nothing and it would be cheap as, compared to alchohol.IMO

Everyone, except from the asian students, would be sitting outside the school tokin on.lol

How do you come up with your outcomes.

Thats an interesting angle, it would be illegal to sell or buy drugs outside the Govt program where you get them for free, but I see your point.

My outcome is based on the presumption that most crime these days (at street level anyway) is drug related.

If the money motive was taken away that crime would no longer be a problem, plus people getting it for free would be "obliged" to partake in rehab.

We're talking theory here of course, we cant even get safe injecting rooms going so there's not much hope of any major changes.