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Gay parenting

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Value Collector said:
So you don't believe gay parenting should be illegal?
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Not as such, but I think adoption agencies should be able to give preference to heterosexual couples with out being sued by gays for discrimination, and surrogacy and ivf should be abolished for everyone.

If a woman has children by intercourse with a man and then decides she prefers women, I would say that the father has reasonable grounds for permanent custody, all else being equal.
 
SirRumpole said:
Somehow I can't see students being sent to a film promoting single motherhood.

.
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Maybe they should.

Could also include straight males who have children manufactured by some Indian breeder stock using a female friend's, or not, egg.
 
SirRumpole said:
Not as such, but I think adoption agencies should be able to give preference to heterosexual couples with out being sued by gays for discrimination, and surrogacy and ivf should be abolished for everyone.

If a woman has children by intercourse with a man and then decides she prefers women, I would say that the father has reasonable grounds for permanent custody, all else being equal.
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Well that seems very strange that you would fight to stop gay marriage from becoming legal, and use gay parenting as a reason, but then you don't want gay parenting to be illegal.

I mean wanting gay marriage to be illegal, because you fear gay parenting, but you are fine with gay parenting remaining legal,... Very strange.

As far a custody, I believe custody should be granted to the side able to provide the best home life for the child, sexuality should be ignored.
 
Value Collector said:
Well that seems very strange that you would fight to stop gay marriage from becoming legal, and use gay parenting as a reason, but then you don't want gay parenting to be illegal.

I mean wanting gay marriage to be illegal, because you fear gay parenting, but you are fine with gay parenting remaining legal,... Very strange.

As far a custody, I believe custody should be granted to the side able to provide the best home life for the child, sexuality should be ignored.
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There is a difference between legality and approval which you seem unable to discern.
 
Value Collector said:
So you don't mind if either gay marriage or gay parenting is legal, you just want it to be frowned upon?
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I don't want gay parenting to be promoted or publicised as "normal" or "desirable" because it's neither imo, and if there are ways that it can be discouraged, so much the better.
 
SirRumpole said:
I don't want gay parenting to be promoted or publicised as "normal" or "desirable" because it's neither imo, and if there are ways that it can be discouraged, so much the better.
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Is that just gay parenting? Or are we still talking about all child raising where one sex is absent?
 
Value Collector said:
Is that just gay parenting? Or are we still talking about all child raising where one sex is absent?
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Gay parenting is a deliberate action to deprive a child of a mother or father.

Couples break up for a variety of reasons, mostly unforeseen. There should be some form of education to reduce the frequency of this occurence not to promote it as we had with the film that the schoolgirls were sent to.
 
Of course this study has no relevance:


Nearly 15,000 people were "screened" for potential participation in the study; in the end almost 3,000, a representative sample, actually completed the survey questionnaire. Of these, 175 reported that their mother had a same-sex romantic relationship while they were growing up, and 73 said the same about their father. These are numbers just large enough to make some statistically robust conclusions in comparing different family structures.

There are eight outcome variables where differences between the children of homosexual parents and married parents were not only present, and favorable to the married parents, but where these findings were statistically significant for both children of lesbian mothers and "gay" fathers and both with and without controls. While all the findings in the study are important, these are the strongest possible ones--virtually irrefutable. Compared with children raised by their married biological parents (IBF), children of homosexual parents (LM and GF):

Are much more likely to have received welfare (IBF 17%; LM 69%; GF 57%)
Have lower educational attainment
Report less safety and security in their family of origin
Report more ongoing "negative impact" from their family of origin
Are more likely to suffer from depression
Have been arrested more often
If they are female, have had more sexual partners--both male and female
The high mathematical standard of "statistical significance" was more difficult to reach for the children of "gay fathers" in this study because there were fewer of them. The following, however, are some additional areas in which the children of lesbian mothers (who represented 71% of all the children with homosexual parents in this study) differed from the IBF children, in ways that were statistically significant in both a direct comparison and with controls. Children of lesbian mothers:

Are more likely to be currently cohabiting
Are almost 4 times more likely to be currently on public assistance
Are less likely to be currently employed full-time
Are more than 3 times more likely to be unemployed
Are nearly 4 times more likely to identify as something other than entirely heterosexual
Are 3 times as likely to have had an affair while married or cohabiting
Are an astonishing 10 times more likely to have been "touched sexually by a parent or other adult caregiver."
Are nearly 4 times as likely to have been "physically forced" to have sex against their will
Are more likely to have "attachment" problems related to the ability to depend on others
Use marijuana more frequently
Smoke more frequently
Watch TV for long periods more frequently
Have more often pled guilty to a non-minor offense

The myths that children of homosexual parents are "no different" from other children and suffer "no harm" from being raised by homosexual parents ....
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SirRumpole said:
Gay parenting is a deliberate action to deprive a child of a mother or father.

Couples break up for a variety of reasons, mostly unforeseen. There should be some form of education to reduce the frequency of this occurence not to promote it as we had with the film that the schoolgirls were sent to.
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The school girls were NOT sent to the film.

It was voluntary.

Stop trying to make out that there was any controversy at the school. Not a single parent complaint after they were INFORMED of the screening and the children had the RIGHT to study in the library if they or their parents were not comfortable with watching the film.

Divorce is a deliberate action to deprive children of one parent. Your rosy view of both parents still being in the child's life after divorce is not quite true. I work with a woman who's going through divorce and the ex has not only abandoned a child from his prior marriage, but has shown little interest in doing much with his two children from his second marriage. Drugs / Gambling / Abuse mean there a thousands of children every year losing one parent, but your rather silent on how those issues should be resolved so your high standards can be uniformly applied.

Your whole argument seems to be based on that you believe a same sex couple is unable to provide a child with every thing a heterosexual couple can, so therefore should be banned. The fact many heterosexual couples fail you high standards doesn't particularly matter.

So what if a minority of the children of same sex couples come out against gay marriage. They're entitled to their views. Does it mean religion should be banned because some children reject the indoctrination of the religion once they're able to apply some critical thinking to what they've been forced to believe? Should heterosexual couples be banned form having children because some of them are sexually and physically abused?
 
The fact many heterosexual couples fail you high standards doesn't particularly matter.
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It matters in the overall treatment of children, but there is nothing to say that if gay parenting takes a hold the failure rate of gay parents won't be as high.

The hole in your argument is that "all" gay parents are model parents compared to the low point of heterosexual parents. That's a very rosy view which is coloured by your own biases. Gays are just as subject to all the deficiencies that heterosexuals are.
 
SirRumpole said:
Gay parenting is a deliberate action to deprive a child of a mother or father.

Couples break up for a variety of reasons, mostly unforeseen. There should be some form of education to reduce the frequency of this occurence not to promote it as we had with the film that the schoolgirls were sent to.
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Remember I am not talking about break ups, I am talking about women having babies planning on being single parents.

But have we got to the point now where you think neither gay parenting or gay marriage should be illeagal?
 
Value Collector said:
Remember I am not talking about break ups, I am talking about women having babies planning on being single parents.
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This action is usually bought about by the welfare available to single mothers including the baby bonus and other benefits. I support the Baby Bonus being abolished and possibly other benefits being cut so that parents have to take more financial responsibility for their children. This will most likely result in the situation you mention being reduced.

And what's more, a proportion of the women you mention may well be lesbians, so if you try and cast all women in this category as naughty heterosexuals then you do so without evidence for that.


But have we got to the point now where you think neither gay parenting or gay marriage should be illeagal?
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I think I've quite clearly stated my attitude in this thread and I refer you to my previous posts.
:rolleyes:
 
SirRumpole said:
It matters in the overall treatment of children, but there is nothing to say that if gay parenting takes a hold the failure rate of gay parents won't be as high.

The hole in your argument is that "all" gay parents are model parents compared to the low point of heterosexual parents. That's a very rosy view which is coloured by your own biases. Gays are just as subject to all the deficiencies that heterosexuals are.
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No that's not our point, it's you guys the constantly say hetero parents are the "gold standard"

Our point is that there is so much more to good parenting than just sexuality, and that sexuality is not the defining trait from which we should judge people's ability to raise balanced children.

I haven't seen the video in question, but isn't it about raising awareness that these families exist rather than "promoting them", isn't about trying to end stigma, isn't that a good thing for children?
 
SirRumpole said:
This action is usually bought about by the welfare available to single mothers including the baby bonus and other benefits. I support the Baby Bonus being abolished and possibly other benefits being cut so that parents have to take more financial responsibility for their children. This will most likely result in the situation you mention being reduced.

And what's more, a proportion of the women you mention may well be lesbians, so if you try and cast all women in this category as naughty heterosexuals then you do so without evidence for that.




I think I've quite clearly stated my attitude in this thread and I refer you to my previous posts.
:rolleyes:
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I think you are wrong if you say it only happens in the welfare communities.

Your previous posts say you are not in favor of making single sex parenting illeagal, so does this change your stance on gay marriages?

Because it seems weird that you wouldn't be in favor of out lawing a lesbian couple from having a baby, but you are in favor of outlawing a marriage between a lesbian couple who don't want to have a baby.

When your main argument is reasons against single sex parenting, it seems weird you don't want to ban the thing you are against, but wish to ban some other thing.
 
Value Collector said:
Our point is that there is so much more to good parenting than just sexuality, and that sexuality is not the defining trait from which we should judge people's ability to raise balanced children.
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I've said SO MANY times that this issue must be judged on a "all else being equal" basis. So yes, good, loving biological parents ARE the gold standard imo, and no matter how well gay parents treat their children there is still a missing biological link and missing male/female role models that heterosexual children need for a balanced upbringing.

I haven't seen the video in question, but isn't it about raising awareness that these families exist rather than "promoting them", isn't about trying to end stigma, isn't that a good thing for children?
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The fact that the film was directed by a Gayby indicates to me that it is more a "promotion" than information/discussion.
 
SirRumpole said:
The fact that the film was directed by a Gayby indicates to me that it is more a "promotion" than information/discussion.
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So you say we should listen to adult children raised by same sex couples, but then if they do anything more than have a fireside chat on a one to one basis then it's a political agenda and their voice should be ignored.

I'm sure you haven't actually watched the film, so you basing your views on what? The daily terror and piers ackerman basically. I challenge you to watch the film then come back with your opinion.
 
sydboy007 said:
So you say we should listen to adult children raised by same sex couples, but then if they do anything more than have a fireside chat on a one to one basis then it's a political agenda and their voice should be ignored.

I'm sure you haven't actually watched the film, so you basing your views on what? The daily terror and piers ackerman basically. I challenge you to watch the film then come back with your opinion.
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If it only takes account of the views of children who are still dependent on their parents then it's not worth watching.

I can't stand Ackerman as I've said, I never listen or read him, and I never read the Telegraph.
 
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