Futures day trading after 6pm - which market?

[KurwaJegoMac]

Hello All,

I've been trading shares on the ASX (several weeks/months holding time) and I'm looking at getting into futures day trading. As I have a lot to learn before I can be consistently profitable I'm not quite ready to leave the day job just yet, which means I'm only available until after 6pm weekdays and all day/night weekends.

Does anyone have suggestions as to an ideal market to begin trading in? I will miss the SPI and HSI sessions so I could potentially hit up the US sessions after midnight (although that would wreck havoc on my full time job, I don't think i'd be able to do it).

I could try and catch SPI night sessions or something similar but I've been recommended to stick to the opening sessions due to better liquidity and price action. That pretty much only leaves Europe I guess? With London opening about 5:30pm I think? (AEST - Melbourne).

I'm not particularly fussed if it's IDX/Bonds/Comms/etc. But just bearing in mind that I'll be new to this so if there's a particular class you think would be best suited for learning I'd appreciate any advice.

Thank you for your time

KJM

 

[white_goodman]

come trade night SPI with me

its pretty useless after 6pm up until 10.30 for announcements and the first 2 hours of NY open

5.10-6.15 ish and 10.30-2am is generally good

 

[CanOz]

Your choices are quite varied in terms of thickness, average daily range, commissions, margin etc. You really should pop onto a SIM and trade a few. Are you day swing trading, Scalping in and out frequently?

For example, in Europe the FESX is a great instrument to trade if you're willing to hang on. Its 10 EUR a tick and moves slowly, is thick as f*** with a ton of liquidity. The DAX on the other hand is more like the Crude Oil, its fast and thin. At 12.5 EUR a tick it can clean you out in a hurry.

Then there are Bunds and Bobls, they're both thick markets.

Then you've got the US makrkets CL, Crude Oil which can be a good market to trade even before the US market opens at times, all be it a bit thin, so you wouldn't want to be trading too many contracts...

The ES, the S&P 500 mini is good to trade 24 hours a day. Its pretty cheap, liquid, and thick enough to learn to read.

CanOz

 

[KurwaJegoMac]

come trade night SPI with me

its pretty useless after 6pm up until 10.30 for announcements and the first 2 hours of NY open

5.10-6.15 ish and 10.30-2am is generally good

I'll certainly look into that - might start around 10:30 for an hour or so. Wouldn't be able to join you after midnight (Need my sleep bad!) Thanks for the suggestion - I was hoping to do some SPI trading at some point mostly because I'd like to get into a prop shop (propex) one day if I have what it takes. Figure the SPI would be a good place to start.

Your choices are quite varied in terms of thickness, average daily range, commissions, margin etc. You really should pop onto a SIM and trade a few. Are you day swing trading, Scalping in and out frequently?

I'll be attempting 2/3 tick scalping and would prefer smaller commissions. I've got ninjatrader up for simming and I've been observing some of the markets. Quite a lot to choose from so need to narrow the list down.

For example, in Europe the FESX is a great instrument to trade if you're willing to hang on. Its 10 EUR a tick and moves slowly, is thick as f*** with a ton of liquidity. The DAX on the other hand is more like the Crude Oil, its fast and thin. At 12.5 EUR a tick it can clean you out in a hurry.

Then there are Bunds and Bobls, they're both thick markets.

Then you've got the US makrkets CL, Crude Oil which can be a good market to trade even before the US market opens at times, all be it a bit thin, so you wouldn't want to be trading too many contracts...

The ES, the S&P 500 mini is good to trade 24 hours a day. Its pretty cheap, liquid, and thick enough to learn to read.

CanOz

I'm thinking I may avoid the oil/dax for now - I've heard they can be quite difficult to start with due to the way it jumps around very quickly. So maybe starting on something a bit slower while I build up my skills migh tbe the best way - although sometimes it's good to just jump in the deep end ey?

I've heard good things about the S&P 500 minis - didn't know they were 24/7. Might look into those, the FESX and Bunds + Bobls.

Thank you both for your help and advice.

 

[CanOz]

No worries....maybe one day Trembling Hand will tell us how it all started...

I suppose we'll have to wait for the book!!

CanOz

 

[Trembling Hand]

I'll be attempting 2/3 tick scalping and would prefer smaller commissions. I've got ninjatrader up for simming and I've been observing some of the markets. Quite a lot to choose from so need to narrow the list down.

Why does everyone want to be a scalper now days? In this market when we are getting huge intraday ranges its like picking up pennies when there is $100 notes laying all over the place.

What will happen is you'll kill it on the sim trading EURO markets but go live and get cut to bits because of latency, blown through stops and fills at the end of que.

I would scalp the ar$e of the buy and sell buttons on sim trying to learn markets not necessarily trying to learn scalping. BIG diff IMO.

 

[KurwaJegoMac]

Why does everyone want to be a scalper now days? In this market when we are getting huge intraday ranges its like picking up pennies when there is $100 notes laying all over the place.

What will happen is you'll kill it on the sim trading EURO markets but go live and get cut to bits because of latency, blown through stops and fills at the end of que.

I would scalp the ar$e of the buy and sell buttons on sim trying to learn markets not necessarily trying to learn scalping. BIG diff IMO.

A fair point, ping to EU would probably be 300-500ms which would put me at a disadvantage. The only reason I was starting with scalping was because I was going through the Propex trainee trader recommended reading material about day trading which detailed scalping methods. I figured if I had some practice and live experience in those techniques that they're recommending I read about I would stand a better chance in getting into a firm like Propex.

I'm really new when it comes to day trading so if there is somewhere else i should be focusing my efforts (like utilising intra-day ranges) then I'm certainly going to heed that advice.

Thank you for your honest and frank feedback - if you were in my shoes right now, no day-trading experience (but good inter-day/week trading experience) what would your recommendation be for the best way to start? e.g. are there any books/traders that come to mind so I can observe how they trade to better understand what you're suggesting?

Thanks.

 

[KurwaJegoMac]

As a point of clarification, this is the sort of stuff theyve suggested i read:

http://www.activetradermag.com/assets/news/story_excerpts/jan09/grady0109.pdf

Unless ive just misunderstood the purpose (i.e. they want me to understand order flow, rather than scalping techniques)

 

[Trembling Hand]

I'm really new when it comes to day trading so if there is somewhere else i should be focusing my efforts (like utilising intra-day ranges) then I'm certainly going to heed that advice.

Mate get some sort of setup and just play. DO NOT APPROACH WITH PRECONCEIVED METHOD.

 

[CanOz]

As a point of clarification, this is the sort of stuff theyve suggested i read:

http://www.activetradermag.com/assets/news/story_excerpts/jan09/grady0109.pdf

Unless ive just misunderstood the purpose (i.e. they want me to understand order flow, rather than scalping techniques)

Thats good stuff from John Grady, i've got his book as well. He trades thicker markets and doesn't like Crude, DAX etc. Its difficult to see what going on in the book, thats why i like the K200. That particular play happens quite frequently on the K200.

So there you go, NT and IB and the K200 for starters. I'm not much more advance than you and find this the best market to learn, in Asia.

CanOz

 

[KurwaJegoMac]

Ok looks like that's the way to go - ill jump on the K200 and follow TH's advice and just start playing.

I'm currently using NT as well - is there a way that I can bring up the total volume sold at each tick (like what Xtrader has?) or will i need to rely on the NT chart for this view?

I've been playing around with the settings and can't get it to show up. Searched online and no luck there

 

[Trembling Hand]

Ok looks like that's the way to go - ill jump on the K200 and follow TH's advice and just start playing.

I'm currently using NT as well - is there a way that I can bring up the total volume sold at each tick (like what Xtrader has?) or will i need to rely on the NT chart for this view?

I've been playing around with the settings and can't get it to show up. Searched online and no luck there

http://www.ninjatrader.com/support/...how&literal=1&search="volume+at+price"&desc=1

a couple indicators here to ad it to charts

 

[CanOz]

Ok looks like that's the way to go - ill jump on the K200 and follow TH's advice and just start playing.

I'm currently using NT as well - is there a way that I can bring up the total volume sold at each tick (like what Xtrader has?) or will i need to rely on the NT chart for this view?

I've been playing around with the settings and can't get it to show up. Searched online and no luck there

Use the SuperDOM. File, New, Dynamic SuperDom

Make sure its linked to you chart via the color link in the right hand corner.

CanOz

 

[tech/a]

FTSE

 

[KurwaJegoMac]

Use the SuperDOM. File, New, Dynamic SuperDom

Make sure its linked to you chart via the color link in the right hand corner.

CanOz

Tried that and it's not showing up - I can get the volume fine up on the charts (thanks for that great link btw TH) but the DOM won't display total volume traded at each tick. Did some searching online and apparently it's not supported? Oh well.

Tech/a cheers for the suggestion - will watch that market for a bit. See if the FTSE/KS200/S&P minis are my thing.

You've all been wonderul, thanks for taking the time to help!

 

[KurwaJegoMac]

Just realised can't do K200 - it's 10am to 6pm aest so too early for me...

Prob do ES given its 24/7. Worried about my connection if i try FTsE

 

[CanOz]

Show us a screenshot of the DOM. You may need to pay for level II on some markets.

CanOz

 

[boofis]

Prob do ES given its 24/7.

Not all of those hours are equal imo. You'll probably notice some difference between sessions, and depending on how you end up trading, you'll soon find which/when you prefer.

 

[KurwaJegoMac]

Show us a screenshot of the DOM. You may need to pay for level II on some markets.

CanOz

Ahh that might explain it. At the moment i'm using a free market feed from Mirus as I'm only observing for now until I work out what market I might like to trade. Then I'll go through IB. Cheers CanOz.

Not all of those hours are equal imo. You'll probably notice some difference between sessions, and depending on how you end up trading, you'll soon find which/when you prefer.

Indeed. I've been watching a few markets here and there and trading is very different throughout the day. As a result, I was preferring to try and catch morning sessions of overseas markets as they seem to be what most people trade.

I'll keep watching over the next few weeks and see if the ES/FTSE suits. Cheers boofis.

 

[white_goodman]

Ahh that might explain it. At the moment i'm using a free market feed from Mirus as I'm only observing for now until I work out what market I might like to trade. Then I'll go through IB. Cheers CanOz.



Indeed. I've been watching a few markets here and there and trading is very different throughout the day. As a result, I was preferring to try and catch morning sessions of overseas markets as they seem to be what most people trade.

I'll keep watching over the next few weeks and see if the ES/FTSE suits. Cheers boofis.

id agree with TH, just muck around a bit, place as many trades as possible, best way to learn how to manage them/risk etc.. not going to learn nearly as quick placing 3 trades a day
I would take the info from Propex training with a grain of salt, the guy that runs it has never traded futures intraday in his life, a classic trader of charts when its already happened