Formal trading education - opinions please

[stink]

HI All,

Just new to the forum and looking for some opinions on formal trading education.

Now doing my home work i can only find one company in the whole of australia that has their training endorsed by the various government bodies, The Sharemarket College.

Now these guys want 10k basically for a 12 month training package and a lifetime of support, software upgardes etc etc

At first i though **** me thats alot so i went home and had a think about it. I am in the IT industry and in this industry we pay thousands of dollars for courses that are only a couple of weeks long, so for a skill and education that you will have for the rest of your life i am thinking its not a bad option?

Now i know that alot of you will say, dont do it keep your money and learn yourself from books etc and i could use that money for trading capitol. But as this is a registered course i can claim %100 of the training on tax as well.

Anyway i just want to share my current thoughts on the matter as i havent made any decisions yet, oh and on the book thing i have asked around and researched that and the problem is "what boook is the right one?" they are mostly all opinions or strategies that have worked for people in a totally different situation to the reader. Good for ideas and further education i agree but hardly a mentor?

Cheers all
Stink

 

[professor_frink]

Re: OPinions PLease

what books you buy will probably be determined by what you are trying to achieve- do you want to invest or trade?

In regards to the course I can't comment because I've not done it.

 

[dennisll]

Re: OPinions PLease

Hi Stink,

Don't do it keep your money and learn yourself from books etc and i could use that money for trading capital.

You guessed it, that's exactly what I would say to you. Even with 100% deductability, at best you would only get about half your money back. Five grand is a lot of money to spend on a course you are taking as a beginner.

I would think a better option would be to flip through some books, either at your local library or at a bookstore where they let you sit down and have a read before buying, and find something that will interest you and start from there. If you like the book, buy it, then have a "play" with the strategies discussed. Once you get started, you will be amazed at how quickly you pick this all up and you will find yourself gravitating towards certain styles or methods. I know it looks daunting now with the huge amount of information available, but as you will probably hear from most people here, when you go through the normal growing phase you will naturally find your own footing.

My main concern is that you will go out and spend a huge amount of money on something that you don't even know will fit your personal style. Why not spend a small fraction of that amount on books to start with, then look to get into a course later on that you know will fit your style? I have heard too many stories of beginners who have rushed out to buy a training/software package they thought would be the key to success, only to find out that for one reason or another it did not fit into their personal plans and now it is sitting in a shelf somewhere gathering dust.

As you will hear from most people here, there is no better teacher than the sharemarket itself. Learn from experience. You have 10k, which is a good amount to start with. Make small purchases to start and see how you go. Find out for yourself what works and what doesn't. No amount of training will teach you what you will learn when you put your own money on the line.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Dennis

 

[stink]

THanks for the replies,

Yeah great advice i know where you are coming from. My problem is i have read a couple of different books now and i read various magazines etc and they all conflict with each other so it really confuses me.

I feel that all that does is gives me a whole lot of doubt and the i'm to scared to get into the market?

I spoke with a couple of guys who are thinking about this course and they were saying "if it was around when i wanted to get into the market i would have done it then". I asked why and they both said " I lost to much when i first started because i had no strategies etc to trading. In other words it took a couple of years to learn the pitfalls that the college teaches you how to avoid.

Its a hard one, i can see the positives for the college being-
trained and mentored by active traders
always a professional available to run your trades by
A well rounded course that has advanced trading elements as well

negatives
I have to spend 5k on training after tax saving etc
could use that for trading

My other main thought about going with the college is i have tried learning "solo" previously and got overloaded and just said this is to hard i dont know what these wankers are talking about. I like the idea of learning from a structured course with people that i can talk to face to face etc

Anyway i will probably not do anything ? thats easiest lol

Cheers Stink

 

[professor_frink]

which books have you read? what are you reading that is conflicting and confusing for you?

 

[emma]

Join the Australian Technical Analysts Association (www.ataa.com.au), they have a Diploma In Technical Analysis, run in association with the Financial Services Institute of Australasia. They also have monthly meetings with great speakers - the opportunities for education don't have to cost a fortune.

 

[dennisll]

About books with advice that conflict with each other:
That is the state of play and really all it shows is that there are several ways to be successful. The objective is to make money and as long as the strategy you choose will get you there, it doesn't really matter that it conflicts with someone else's successful strategy. The more important thing is to choose a strategy that you are comfortable with, and that you believe will work. Read your books and choose the one that you think is the best for you then follow it. Don't worry about the other books that conflict with the one you have chosen for now.

About being scared to get into the market:
It is natural to be scared about something new, especially when there is a prospect of losing money. However, getting over the fear is something you must learn to do. What's the difference between making 10 trades that lose you 500 bucks each and going to a course that costs you 5000 bucks, in terms of getting over your fear? Even though it would cost you the same amount of money, I'd say that after the 10 trades you will probably be in a better position of learning to manage your risk and, as a result, your fear of the market as well.

However, from what you have said it seems that you have pretty much made up your mind that you do need to go to a course to get over the hump, so to speak, and get you started. If that's the case then all I can say is go for it! If spending 10k on a course is what will propel you into action then by all means do it. Doing nothing because of uncertainty is the worst option.

Regards,

Dennis

 

[stink]

Hi Again,

Thanks Dennis, sensible words mate.

Yeah look they have options to cut the cost in half and you still get the course itself and there software. However you have to pay for any upgrades etc to the software and you dont get the 24hr support etc. But i am thinking maybe this is the better option for me halfing the cost, and i could use teh other half as some trading capitol?

I know you all have probably discussed this sort of thing on many occasions and i really appreciate your feedback.

Thanks Again
Stink

 

[ice]

Stink,

A lot of it depends on your attitude to structured tuition.
I have taken what is probably the usual course and read books, experimented with charts and various indicators etc, then made trades, some good, some bad. That's what I am comfortable with. As such, I have always thought the big $ courses were at best unnecessary and at worst a con.
However a friend who has decided to get actively involved in the market has signed up for one of these mega courses. For him it is the logical action because he has built a very successful business career on his willingness to pay big money to draw on other people's expertise. Therefore he is (a) comfortable that he will get a return on investment and (b) happy that this will bring him up to speed in the shortest amount of time, and (c) confident that he will have the discipline to implement what he is taught.

It's a different way of looking at things and while it's still not appealing to me I can see the merit in it for some people.
The question you perhaps need to ask yourself is whether you are that type of person. If you are then probably go for it.


ice

PS Although I have read a lot of books on trading there are only two that I needed to have read.
Reminiscences of a Stock Operator by Le Fevre
Fooled by Randomness by Nassim Taleb
(All the others are just about trading)

 

[stink]

ICE,

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I am your mate!!! lol

that is exactly the way i have justified in my head, right or wrong thats how i think.

If i dont do it i am the type of person thats a) will just not look into the Stock market at all or b) never have the confidence in what i read etc to actually put it into practice.

However if i am taught by certified professionals i am more comfortable with putting my learnings into practice, i mean if its successful and i see myself makeing a modest profit then its all worth it in my book. If i do the course and i lose every trade and never make money, that would gut me totally.

Cheers Stink

 

[tech/a]

Think youll find for your 10K that youll know everything about the way the stock market works but very little about how to trade profitably.

Thats what your after isnt it?

and never make money, that would gut me totally.

Highly likely.
I had the highest score in the State for technical analysis in 96 with the Securities Institute and promply lost $20k in the next 3 mths.

Few very few teach how to trade PROFITABLY.

Radge Does and Radge Trades Profitably.
http://www.reefcap.com/

He's fully licienced,courses 100% tax deductable,Written a couple of Books,Worked in the industry for many years including CBOT.
Is Aussi and was/is the greatest influence on my own trading.

That $20K loss is well and truely 10 X that in profit thanks to Nicks enlightenment.---Investment was a lot less than 10K.

 

[dennisll]

Looks like you've already answered your own question, Stink.

Good luck and happy trading.

Dennis

 

[Porper]

Join the Australian Technical Analysts Association (www.ataa.com.au), they have a Diploma In Technical Analysis, run in association with the Financial Services Institute of Australasia. They also have monthly meetings with great speakers - the opportunities for education don't have to cost a fortune.

Is anybody a member of ATAA ?

I would be interested in any feedback as I am looking at doing some type of T.A course.

I am a big fan of Nick Radge but his online course is $550 I think (by memory) which is a lot for a cd.Anybody had a go at his course ?

 

[Nick Radge]

Just to clarify, the CD comes with 3-months tutoring via email. The course was written in 1998 and still sells well today. More importantly what is in the course still works, bull or bear!

 

[tech/a]

Is anybody a member of ATAA ?

I would be interested in any feedback as I am looking at doing some type of T.A course.

I am a big fan of Nick Radge but his online course is $550 I think (by memory) which is a lot for a cd.Anybody had a go at his course ?

Was a member for 4 yrs.
Good speakers generally BUT and its a BIG BUT.

It wont teach you HOW to turn a profit.
Invest $550 with Nick and youll learn HOW to make it back in a few weeks.
Or if you have a good capital base a day.

You can analyse till your chart looks like a test pattern---but it wont make you profitable!

 

[TheAnalyst]

Is anybody a member of ATAA ?

I would be interested in any feedback as I am looking at doing some type of T.A course.

I am a big fan of Nick Radge but his online course is $550 I think (by memory) which is a lot for a cd.Anybody had a go at his course ?

Yer i thought it was a bit too much as well porper.....I thought between $250 and $300 would have been a lot better and probably would have quad tripled sales.

 

[wavepicker]

You know Porper,

I have spent literally thousands on courses over the last 10 yrs. Most of those were very expensive and would have been better used as toilet paper!!

Believe it or not, in the end I learnt more by watching the markets myself and buying two $16 TA books from Amazon!!!

Nick seems to be offering quite a good deal there. Especially with the extra tuition. From what I have seen of Nick's work here, it is a small price to pay. This sort of knowledge will stay with you forever and you can only build on it with your studies and research in the future.

Cheers

 

[wayneL]

Yer i thought it was a bit too much as well porper.....I thought between $250 and $300 would have been a lot better and probably would have quad tripled sales.

Lets put $550 into context

It is the quality of information that counts. I'll bet there would be a substantial number of visiters to this site who would have paid $3,000 or more for one or another seminar, AND GOT NOWHERE NEAR THE QUALITY Of INFO that Nick is supplying.

All you get is hype, magick moo cows, or share renting or some such BS.

There are two types of educators:

1/REAL traders who also educate. These are noteworthy by their honesty, lack of hype and usefulness of information in the REAL WORLD.

2/ Educators who are EX traders (usually failed traders). These are noteworthy in that their seminar/educatoin business is fully fledged, full of hype, infer they are millionaire traders, imply that you too can be a millionaire by next week, and emphasize one or two strategies, such as magic bloody moo cows or something equally ludicrous.... oh, and they charge in excess of $3,000 for a largely useless seminar that is primarily designed to onsell you to the super duper ultra speacial billionaires trading seminar for $10,000 - $30,000.

I happen to know quite a few people who USED to trade. All are graduates of these ridiculous, overpriced courses.

Conclusion: $550 is very reasonable for the quality of info plus individual tutoring (something else you won't get for your $3k in the other rubbish).

Cheers

 

[TheAnalyst]

Lets put $550 into context

It is the quality of information that counts. I'll bet there would be a substantial number of visiters to this site who would have paid $3,000 or more for one or another seminar, AND GOT NOWHERE NEAR THE QUALITY Of INFO that Nick is supplying.

All you get is hype, magick moo cows, or share renting or some such BS.

There are two types of educators:

1/REAL traders who also educate. These are noteworthy by their honesty, lack of hype and usefulness of information in the REAL WORLD.

2/ Educators who are EX traders (usually failed traders). These are noteworthy in that their seminar/educatoin business is fully fledged, full of hype, infer they are millionaire traders, imply that you too can be a millionaire by next week, and emphasize one or two strategies, such as magic bloody moo cows or something equally ludicrous.... oh, and they charge in excess of $3,000 for a largely useless seminar that is primarily designed to onsell you to the super duper ultra speacial billionaires trading seminar for $10,000 - $30,000.

I happen to know quite a few people who USED to trade. All are graduates of these ridiculous, overpriced courses.

Conclusion: $550 is very reasonable for the quality of info plus individual tutoring (something else you won't get for your $3k in the other rubbish).

Cheers

lol.....but u two are friends and drink at the same bar.......

 

[wayneL]

lol.....but u two are friends and drink at the same bar.......

Noosa is a long way from Geraldton my friend. We would have to meet somewhere around Alice Springs if that were so.