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Fluoride

Interesting...

Personally OWG, I prefer to side with the WHO instead of you, or perhaps you would like to provide a cost-benefit study which shows fluoridation is ineffective.

WHO Quotes Below

 

More on the link below;
http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/01/02/idUS108377+02-Jan-2008+PRN20080102"]http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/01/02/idUS108377+02-Jan-2008+PRN20080102[/URL]
 
Doesn't the mechanical action of brushing over time erode the enamel and reduce fluoride content?

Yes, over time generally meaning many years, probably decades. Julia said it occured over only one month.



I'm not sure that I fully understand what you're saying, but I'm reading it as though you are saying the enamel remineralises by 'sucking out' mineral from the dentine. Where did you read or hear about this? In order to remineralise, enamel requires minerals from saliva and the tooth pellicle, however, it doesn't remineralise from the dentine. We can see this from SEM scans, which would show demineralised enamel remineralising from the outside-in, not the inside-out.
 
Hexafluorosilicic acid is the inorganic compound with the formula H2SiF6. It is a product of the production of hydrogen fluoride and the production of phosphate fertilizers. The majority of the hexafluorosilicic acid is used for the production of aluminum metal. Hexafluorosilicic acid is also commonly used for water fluoridation.


MSDS for dihydrogen hexaflorosilicate

General

Synonyms: hydrofluorosilicic acid, hexafluorosilicic acid, fluorosilicic acid, hydrogen hexafluorosilicate, silicofluoric acid
Molecular formula: H2SiF6
CAS No: 16961-83-4
EINECS No: 241-034-8

Physical data

Appearance: colourless liquid; often supplied as a colourless solution in water
Melting point:
Boiling point: 108.5 C (as the pure liquid)
Vapour density:
Vapour pressure:
Density (g cm-3): 1.32
Flash point:
Explosion limits:
Autoignition temperature:
Water solubility: soluble

Stability

Stable in aqueous solution.

Toxicology

Corrosive - causes burns. Harmful by ingestion, inhalation and through skin contact. May be fatal if swallowed. May cause serious eye damage.

Risk phrases
(The meaning of any risk phrases which appear in this section is given here.)
R20 R21 R22 R34 R41.

Transport information

Personal protection

Safety glasses, adequate ventilation.

Safety phrases
(The meaning of any safety phrases which appear in this section is given here.)
S26 S27.
 
If you could all carry on your squabble without using me as a point of reference, I would appreciate it.

I started the thread long ago in good faith, simply asking for how I could successfully filter my town water supply to eliminate fluoride. To this I received some genuine and helpful replies, as is usually the case on ASF.

I will probably tend to trust the opinion of the dentist who actually saw the problem with my teeth at the time, and before having the expense of veneers, over someone on the internet who has not seen and may not be fully aware of all the circumstances.

That said, I do not wish to be further engaged in the discussion about the effectiveness or otherwise of fluoride.
I am with the simple logic of OzWave Guy who is saying what I have all along, viz that those who want to use fluoride have the means of doing so as individuals.
I do not believe the rest of us should have any substance put into the water supply which is not necessary for providing cleanliness of that water, e.g. chlorine.

To do so is, imo, unethical and an infringement of individual rights. That is all I'm concerned about.
 

It's not about changing your mind it's about looking after the health of the population - based on your lust for fluoride it appears that you would never admit anything was wrong even if the WHO came back and said it was bad in a "spinful" way.

Is this the same WHO that pushed the H1N1 scare with the vaccine companies to drive billions in profits? Yes, an unelected organization full of trust.
 
If you could all carry on your squabble without using me as a point of reference, I would appreciate it.

Of course, No problems.
(However this is a discussion forum - perhaps in future reconsider raising these sorts of issues if you don't want it discussed!)


Understandable

To do so is, imo, unethical and an infringement of individual rights. That is all I'm concerned about.

Yes well ethical arguments can go on forever and there is no right or wrong because we all have different beliefs when it comes to ethics. I believe it is unethical do do nothing when we have high decay rates and there is an option available with evidence to prove it's highly effective and highly safe. Yes now you can see why ethical debates go in circles. Hence I prefer just to acknowledge that there is an ethical debate here and leave it at that.


It's not about changing your mind it's about looking after the health of the population - based on your lust for fluoride it appears that you would never admit anything was wrong even if the WHO came back and said it was bad in a "spinful" way..

Absolutely not. If the evidence started saying that fluoridated water is dangerous, and WHO then took that point of view as well, then I would go with what the evidence and WHO says.

That's what Medicowallet and I have been saying all along...we will form our belief based on the latest and best data - which at the moment is saying it's safe and effective so that's what I'm going to stick with. Anything which says it's not safe seems to be rubbish research from what I've seen so far.
 
Of course, No problems.
Thank you.

(However this is a discussion forum - perhaps in future reconsider raising these sorts of issues if you don't want it discussed!)
This is what my first post said:

Nothing wrong with that. It is a perfectly legitimate enquiry on a forum which usually comes up with an answer to most questions, as it did in this case with responses about various types of filters.

That it has descended into a rude rabble is not my responsibility. I am simply asking that the ongoing argument should leave me personally out of it.
 

How many more years of trials then?

Do you still breathe considering oxygen at 100% will kill you?

Stop giving me conspiracy theory dogma, I have been around long enough to understand trials and toxicity ( and being involved in studies too )

Your high school level arguments have no evidence.


Until Fluoridation has a negative cost-benefit analysis, I will continue to support it, as will all ethical health practitioners.
 
Personally OWG, I prefer to side with the WHO instead of you, or perhaps you would like to provide a cost-benefit study which shows fluoridation is ineffective.

Interesting...

 
If you could all carry on your squabble without using me as a point of reference, I would appreciate it.

I'm doing my best Julia.

I did adopt my writing style to 'third person' and (what-if) specifically to depersonalise the conversation and focus on the physiological process of fluoridation that the pro fluoridation lobby tend to avoid by relying on headline banners.

But unfortunately these guys don't seem to be very articulate in the english language and more particularly the theme of what is being said... but having said that the pro fluoridation campaign tends to be a deliberate personality and credibility attack, rather than freely providing all the scientific data and explanations of what their headline banners would have us believe is such compelling and indisputable data.

But having said all that I do apolagise for using your eralier post, since Billy trawled back to find it and attempt to descredit it, as bait to goad him into discussing some of the physiological processes of fluoride and fluoridation.

I hope we can continue to discuss the physiological prosesses objectively in the third person and what-if scenerios, that the population commonly encounter.

Bty, I can understand people getting weary of the subject and getting on with their lives since the 'legal' process to implement compulsory fluoridation has been enacted... but I just got my second wind and changed tact a bit. More details later, maybe.
 
Yes, over time generally meaning many years, probably decades. Julia said it occured over only one month.

That's my point. As people age their enamel tends to erode and become thinner from brushing, chewing and other damage.

I'm not sure that I fully understand what you're saying, but I'm reading it as though you are saying the enamel remineralises by 'sucking out' mineral from the dentine.

Billy, you are not familiar with pH cycling! It's a concept used extensively in the medical and agricultural sciences that I'm more familiar with.

pH Cycling: Maybe a bit simplistic but essentially it's the notion of the pH of a local environment (eg mouth saliva) being substantially influenced by strongly acidic (in this case) substances to cause a short term sharp reduction in pH which restores to normal and subsequently forced lower again, hence the term cycling.

I haven't studied this report, but a quick google search finds this on pH cycling; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14762502

Where did you read or hear about this?
In a clinical dentistry book. I don't recall the exact title. Maybe it was more a specialist publication because it got into some pretty heavy detail pyhsiological analysis.


Firstly some easy to understand laymans explanations.

Dental pellicle is a protein film that forms on the surface enamel by selective binding of glycoproteins from saliva that prevents continuous deposition of salivary calcium phosphate. It forms in seconds after a tooth is cleaned. It is also protective to the tooth from the acids produced by oral microorganisms after consuming the available carbohydrates

SEM: Scanning Electron Microscope.

pH Scale: is the measure of the Hydrogen ion concentration to provide a measure of how acidity or alkalinity.



Billy, I think you are overlooking;
  1. the effect of ingested fluoride, as in fluoridation,
  2. that the fluoride atom is very small, and
  3. the fluoride ion has a very strong electron bond, hence
  4. it's ability to move through tissue easily, and
  5. it's ability to easily displace some other elements/compounds, and
  6. the effect of pH cycling with all the above.
I'm interested in further discussion once you familiarise yourself with this, that may be a bit over your head and more of a specialty.
 

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Settle down Whiskers, you actively went back and picked out her posts and republished her posts with her name on it. 'Depersonalise it'...yeaahh right. Don't worry, that's the last I'll mention that issue, I just felt that much had to be said.

Anyways, after all that I hope you understand the processes a bit better now that we've gone through it a bit, but it seems this thing is going around in circles. I might summarise what I think so far:

1. All the best science is telling us water fluoridation is safe, effective, and cost-effective.

2. Therefore, the concensus among the scientific, dental, and medical community at this point in time is that water fluoridation is safe, effective and cost-effective.

3. So at the end of the day, it's up to the antifluoridists to find evidence or produce (quality) evidence if they think it's not safe, not effective or not cost-effective
And, so far there doesn't seem to be any out there.

4. Because there is currently no evidence to support their views, the anti-fluoridists are simply speculating - they think in the future some evidence will come out to prove it's unsafe. Speculation, that's all it is.

5. Lastly, there is an ethical debate, there are some who think it's unethical to make everyone's water fluoridated (even if it is safe in the literature). Well, I'd argue it's unethical that poor people have to wait 6 years to see a dentist and rich people can see one straight away. Ethics is very wishy-washy so we all can all have our opinions on that..
 
Billy, you are not familiar with pH cycling! It's a concept used extensively in the medical and agricultural sciences that I'm more familiar with.

]

I do know what pH cycling is.

However, I don't know where you're going with all this. I don't want to fluff around too much about this, it doesn't need to be excessively technical. If you'd be so kind to make your point or argument clear and concise then I'll have something to direct my post toward.
 
In a clinical dentistry book. I don't recall the exact title. Maybe it was more a specialist publication because it got into some pretty heavy detail pyhsiological analysis.

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I would suggest that you post a reference up for that. In fact, the more references available, the better generally.
 
I do know what pH cycling is.

However, I don't know where you're going with all this. I don't want to fluff around too much about this, it doesn't need to be excessively technical.

No 'fluff', just discussing how fluoride alters the chemistry and remineralisation of our teeth.

If you'd be so kind to make your point or argument clear and concise then I'll have something to direct my post toward.

My point is that you didn't acknowledge the effect of pH cycling in the context of a more volatile substance, 'fluoride' in the demineralising and remineralising of teeth.

Secondly, the affect of fluoridation on teeth and the holistic physiological effect that has on permenant teeth that has had little or no exposure to fluoridation in their development.
 
My point is that you didn't acknowledge the effect of pH cycling in the context of a more volatile substance, 'fluoride' in the demineralising and remineralising of teeth.

OK then. I will acknowledge your query.

Under normal conditions, the surface of the enamel consists of hydroxyapetite. Enamel that has been exposed to fluoride (eg thorugh fluoridated water) is fluoroapetitie. In the context of pH, the critical pH of fluoroapetitie is higher than that of hyroxyapetite. Hence it is more resistant to demineralisation.

Hope that answers your question
 
Perfectly safe! Er, Fluoride is pharmaceutical grade, and, um, there are reports that the UK gov use that prove it is safe, er, even though the authors disagree....


Must go back to TV now to wait for next instruction....
 
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