Fluoride

[Billyb]

Side note: Hitler was the first to use fluoride in water, which he did in concentration camps to keep the prisoners docile.

yeah yeah sure sure I believe you.

Post evidence guys, don't be weak

 

[derty]

Side note: Hitler was the first to use fluoride in water, which he did in concentration camps to keep the prisoners docile.

It took 597 posts but Godwin's Law has been evoked. The conspiracy theorists automatically lose. End of thread.

 

[medicowallet]

Isn't it nice to see the mainstream & "conspiracy" nuts coming together over one issue, at least. Well, it's a start.

Just in case you thought the fluoride they're putting in our water/food was pharmaceutical grade - which would still be bad enough - it is in fact an industrial waste product from making fertilizer. Or it's imported from China, in which case they don't exactly know where it comes from nor what is in it. As shown in this very good (Australian) documentary:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SMKemanUQ8&feature=player_embedded

I think it's time for the law suits to begin. And maybe even the arrests.

Side note: Hitler was the first to use fluoride in water, which he did in concentration camps to keep the prisoners docile.

Our lawmakers should be taken down on this one issue alone. It is past the time for polite letters to MPs and past time for sponsored Member's Bills. Some of you are smart, well connected people. Your kids are bathing in and drinking this ****, and bottled water is no escape. It's time to put some wheels in motion.

The person who made this is 20ish years old with no scientific background.

It is purely a propaganda piece by interest groups, and is a poor representation of conspiracy theories.

 

[medicowallet]

Aaah... but it is your bias that delayed eruption occurs in the southern states because of lack iof Vit D. I just happen to agree and further that fluoride increases that delay.

Firstly, this data set relates entirely to DMFT (permanent teeth). Don't worry about the analysis effect on dmft (baby teeth) data. When the same rationale and shift is applied there it will marry in.



ARCPOH has the Significant Caries Index (SiC) data for the worst 30% dmft as well as the SiC10 (worst 10%) in national age groups... BUT have failed to produce it in State, postcode or Local Council sub sets. We can only wonder why, but I'm sure when someone can get that raw data and plot it up by postcode or Local Council, we will see an entirely different picture as with the tooth eruption rate. It will give a good parallel indication for DMFT.

Meanwhile this is the DMFT chart adjusted for one year and two year delay of eruption.

What stands out is whatever the precise number is for the rate of eruption delay,(that ARCPOH don't allow for) it makes a significant difference on the complexion of the ARCPOH child age data.

it is so frustrating that you have a graph that shows that there is a clear benefit and you cannot believe it.

then you believe that moving DMFT graph to suit your purpose will mean that the dmft graph will also improve your argument, when in fact it makes it worse!!!

I have tried to explain this to you, but you obviously cannot understand.

 

[DB008]

It took 597 posts but Godwin's Law has been evoked. The conspiracy theorists automatically lose. End of thread.

I have never heard of "Godwin's Law" it until you mentioned it derty. But in no way, shape or form was l going to bring Hitler into this thread.

 

[Whiskers]

it is so frustrating that you have a graph that shows that there is a clear benefit and you cannot believe it.

then you believe that moving DMFT graph to suit your purpose will mean that the dmft graph will also improve your argument, when in fact it makes it worse!!!

I have tried to explain this to you, but you obviously cannot understand.

Nah... your purpose too... remember you introduced Vit D delayed eruption into the equation, albeit after a bit of goading.


Don't worry about the dmft chart for the moment, I'm still coming to that...

So, since Vit D is a factor that ARCPOH clearly didn't factor in for a comparable teeth age comparison, how long in your experience is a reasonable estimate for low(er) Vit D eruption delay in the south?

 

[medicowallet]

Nah... your purpose too... remember you introduced Vit D delayed eruption into the equation, albeit after a bit of goading.


Don't worry about the dmft chart for the moment, I'm still coming to that...

So, since Vit D is a factor that ARCPOH clearly didn't factor in for a comparable teeth age comparison, how long in your experience is a reasonable estimate for low(er) Vit D eruption delay in the south?

Can you please show me a study showing Vitamin D is a factor?

I guess you just believe any unsubstantiated claims you read on the internet?

I don't, as I said, it was a possibility, and something that since there is no evidence showing the magnitude of the effect, it is irrelevant.


Once again you change topic when your argument falls in a heap.

Your graph analysis is elementary and the errors are glaring, you have clearly lost the plot this time, and you are looking particularly desperate trying to dig your way out of the bottomless pit of your inexperience in analysing graphs.

 

[Whiskers]

Can you please show me a study showing Vitamin D is a factor?

I guess you just believe any unsubstantiated claims you read on the internet?

I don't, as I said, it was a possibility, and something that since there is no evidence showing the magnitude of the effect, it is irrelevant.

This is what you said back on post # 572

As Vit D actually IMPROVES tooth mineralisation AND speeds eruptions,

Sound pretty matter-of-fact to me.

So, how much were you thinking it speeds up eruptions then... before you started trying to back away from it?

 

[DB008]

Does Fluoridation Reduce Dental Decay?

A computer analysis of the data from the largest dental survey ever done -of nearly 40,000 school children - by the U.S. National Institutes of Dental Research revealed no correlation between tooth decay and fluoridation. In fact, many of the non-fluoridated cities had better tooth decay rates than fluoridated cities. The city with the lowest rate of tooth decay was not fluoridated. Of the three with the highest rate of decay, two were partially fluoridated.

Similarly, the Missouri State Bureau of Dental Health:

"had conducted a survey of more than 6,500 lifelong resident second- and sixth-grade children in various parts of Missouri and found that, overall... `there were no significant differences between children drinking optimally fluoridated water and children drinking suboptimally fluoridated water.'" Prof. Albrtt W.Burgstahler, Uni.of Kansas) (2)

Even "...the Journal of the American Dental Association (states) that "the currently reported decline in caries in the U.S. and other Western industrialised countries has been observed in both fluoridated and non-fluoridated communities, with percentage reductions in each community apparently about the same.'" Chemical & Engineering News, August 1, 1988.

So why are we mass medicated?

 

[medicowallet]

This is what you said back on post # 572



Sound pretty matter-of-fact to me.

So, how much were you thinking it speeds up eruptions then... before you started trying to back away from it?

It is a known fact that when people start to lose an argument, they try to change topics at all costs.

however I shall answer your question, even if you don't have the fortitude to answer mine.

Yes Vitamin D does improve mineralisation (and as I have pointed out, this should actually favour queenslanders) and does influence eruptions (note I said influence, not necessarily speeds, because you can be deficient or have excess).

As to how much to quantify, well I for one, will not start making up figures, unlike the people you seem to believe.

THAT is why I said I cannot use it, as I have no published data to quantify it, do you?

Because it is actually you who wants to continue to go down the Vitamin D path, perhaps you can find this information in published studies.

Whiskers, how many times do I have to say that the Vitamin D argument, even though it is appropriate, cannot be used until someone has some published evidence, as I tire of your immaturity of expecting me to address this issue. Are you still in school or are you an adult?

 

[medicowallet]

So why are we mass medicated?

Hard to think that this is from the NICDR then isn't it DB008

http://www.nidcr.nih.gov/OralHealth/Topics/Fluoride/StatementWaterFluoridation.htm

link to
http://health.gov/environment/ReviewofFluoride/
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/fluoridated-water

 

[Atlas79]

I have never heard of "Godwin's Law" it until you mentioned it derty. But in no way, shape or form was l going to bring Hitler into this thread.

Stalin did it too.

Some of you seem to think this is a joke. Do you not drink or bathe in water? You're being poisoned. Not a concern?

As for the video, rather than address information presented, the shills attack the source of the video to discourage others from watching.

People this is a huge frigging wake up call.

 

[medicowallet]

Stalin did it too.

Some of you seem to think this is a joke. Do you not drink or bathe in water? You're being poisoned. Not a concern?

As for the video, rather than address information presented, the shills attack the source of the video to discourage others from watching.

People this is a huge frigging wake up call.

How can this person make heads or tails of a subject they would have very little knowledge in.

In that light, the info in there could be poor, unpublished data which is wrong and sensational.

How can you actually believe it when there is far better quality, published, scientific data out there?

Perhaps a wake up call to the real world is warranted.

 

[Whiskers]

Yes Vitamin D does improve mineralisation (and as I have pointed out, this should actually favour queenslanders) and does influence eruptions (note I said influence, not necessarily speeds, because you can be deficient or have excess).

Geesus mate, you are back peddling so fast you can't remember... or most likely desperately launching into personal(ity) attacks to try to gloss over what you said earlier.

Originally Posted by medicowallet from Post # 572
As Vit D actually IMPROVES tooth mineralisation AND speeds eruptions,
​

Again, you said "AND", ie internet for shouting, an emphasis... that Vit D speeds eruptions.

As to how much to quantify, well I for one, will not start making up figures, unlike the people you seem to believe.

THAT is why I said I cannot use it, as I have no published data to quantify it, do you?

Sooo... you can shout to emphasize Vit D speeds eruptions (albeit in response to being goaded into providing an alternative explanation to fluoride itself causing a delay)... BUT you now claim to have no data to support your very definite assertion that Vit D affects eruption of teeth.

Humm... sooo, you can make assertions without any published data to quantify it...

Hey, wait a minute... that's what you are claiming the anti fluoridation people do and why they cannot be believed.

Because it is actually you who wants to continue to go down the Vitamin D path, perhaps you can find this information in published studies.

Yeah, but if you are a Doctor and have your patient welfare at heart (rather than a biased interest in public health policy, ie compulsory fluoridation), then you should know where to find such data, or a ball park figure at least.

Whiskers, how many times do I have to say that the Vitamin D argument, even though it is appropriate, cannot be used until someone has some published evidence, as I tire of your immaturity of expecting me to address this issue. Are you still in school or are you an adult?

What does it matter if I am in school or not? It's a valid question to which you (in your bias) seem to not want to make more light of for fear of being counter-productive to your bias. Rather, the best you can do is induce more spin and personality attacks in an attempt to wriggle out of a corner you backed into.

You claim to be a Doctor (of medicine) but are quick to slam anyone who raises questions about the safety of fluoridation and the integrity of the research as conspiracy theorists, immature or whatever... but when you are goaded into pronouncing forcefully that Vit D speeds eruption (in Qld -unfluoridated)to try to counter the notion that fluoride causes causes eruption delay (in the south - fluoridated)... YOU CANNOT PRODUCE THE DATA or RESEARCH!

Talk about hypocrisy!

How about you make an effort to be a bit impartial and post up that data/research before someone else does?

 

[Atlas79]

The person who made this is 20ish years old with no scientific background.

It is purely a propaganda piece by interest groups, and is a poor representation of conspiracy theories.

Just like to point out that the doctors who were all for Thalidumide had scientific backgrounds. The scientists who set up the Fukushima disaster had scientific backgrounds. The dentists recommending fluoridation are doing so because they read it in text books written by richer dentists than them.

 

[medicowallet]

Geesus mate, you are back peddling so fast you can't remember... or most likely desperately launching into personal(ity) attacks to try to gloss over what you said earlier.

Originally Posted by medicowallet from Post # 572
As Vit D actually IMPROVES tooth mineralisation AND speeds eruptions,
​

Again, you said "AND", ie internet for shouting, an emphasis... that Vit D speeds eruptions.



Sooo... you can shout to emphasize Vit D speeds eruptions (albeit in response to being goaded into providing an alternative explanation to fluoride itself causing a delay)... BUT you now claim to have no data to support your very definite assertion that Vit D affects eruption of teeth.

Humm... sooo, you can make assertions without any published data to quantify it...

Hey, wait a minute... that's what you are claiming the anti fluoridation people do and why they cannot be believed.



What does it matter if I am in school or not? It's a valid question to which you (in your bias) seem to not want to make more light of for fear of being counter-productive to your bias. Rather, the best you can do is induce more spin and personality attacks in an attempt to wriggle out of a corner you backed into.

You claim to be a Doctor (of medicine) but are quick to slam anyone who raises questions about the safety of fluoridation and the integrity of the research as conspiracy theorists, immature or whatever... but when you are goaded into pronouncing forcefully that Vit D speeds eruption (in Qld -unfluoridated)to try to counter the notion that fluoride causes causes eruption delay (in the south - fluoridated)... YOU CANNOT PRODUCE THE DATA or RESEARCH!

Talk about hypocrisy!

How about you make an effort to be a bit impartial and post up that data/research before someone else does?

Nope,

I was not backpeddling, merely stating facts.

If you were learned, you would understand that someone deficient in Vit D will benefit from more, but someone with adequate Vitamin D will not benefit.

You claim that I use Vitamin D as evidence, and I did state it could make a difference (yes vitamin d does improve mineralisation and speed eruption), but I cannot quantify this, AS I HAVE SAID ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS YOU FOOL. What is wrong with this.

You and your high school straw man argument is pathetic and below me, son (yes I am frustrated in dealing with your blatant immaturity and incompetence, and I guess your high school teacher is too)

 

[medicowallet]

Just like to point out that the doctors who were all for Thalidumide had scientific backgrounds. The scientists who set up the Fukushima disaster had scientific backgrounds. The dentists recommending fluoridation are doing so because they read it in text books written by richer dentists than them.

Ok, 2 points

1. Let's stop progress for the sake of thalidomide (which is still used mind you)

2. Note that thalidomide was stopped. If they find evidence that fluoride's costs outweigh benefits, this precedent ensures it will be stopped too.

I would also like to point out that science and medicine has extended lifespans and improved morbidity exceptionally, so stop playing with words in an inappropriate context.

 

[DB008]

http://iadr.confex.com/iadr/2008Toronto/techprogram/abstract_105335.htm

2205 Fluoride and its effect on human intelligence.
A systematic review

M. CONNETT, Fluoride Action Network, Cambridge, MA, USA, and H. LIMEBACK, University of Toronto, Canada

Objectives: A systematic review was undertaken to examine if fluoride (F-) exposure is associated with a decline in human intelligence (IQ).

Methods: Ovid MEDLINE and its allied versions, CINAHL, AMED, EMBASE, Cochrane DSR, ACP Journal Club, DARE, CCTR, CMR, HTA, and NHSEED, Health and Psychosocial Instruments, HealthSTAR, International Pharmaceutical Abstracts were searched from the earliest record until January 2008. Only original human studies examining the effect of F- on IQ were selected. Elevated F- in drinking water was the primary variable but studies where F- was elevated in the urine as a result of pollution were also included. Hand-searching of the bibliographies of the selected studies, as well as a separate search strategy in Cab Direct and online Chinese databases (Chinese version of Google Scholar and several others) were performed and the relevant studies were translated into English.

Results: Of a total of 224 papers searched for relevancy from their titles, abstracts and full copy, 20 original studies met our inclusion criteria, were read in full and critiqued. Only 6 of the studies were reviewed by the 2006 US NRC Subcommittee on Fluoride in Drinking Water and 4 studies were published after 2006. The extent of F- exposure was reported in all but one study and 9 studies reported urinary F-. Most papers omitted important details (blinding, confounders, randomization). All but 2 reported statistically significant (t-tests) declines in IQ in children exposed to elevated levels of F-. Only 1 study reported a bivariate analysis and another a multiregression analysis. Three studies were conducted outside of China, suggesting that this is not just a relationship that is limited to one country.

Conclusions: While the evidence is not conclusive, we identified 20 ecological studies that purport an association between high fluoride exposure and decreased human intelligence (IQ).

Seq #212 - PTT Poster Session #2

2:00 PM-3:15 PM, Friday, July 4, 2008 Metro Toronto Convention Centre Exhibit Hall D-E

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18695947

Fluoride and children's intelligence: a meta-analysis.

Tang QQ, Du J, Ma HH, Jiang SJ, Zhou XJ.

Department of Pathology, Nanjing University School of Medicine, Nanjing Jinling Hospital, Nanjing, Jiangsu 210002, People's Republic of China.
Abstract

This paper presents a systematic review of the literature concerning fluoride that was carried out to investigate whether fluoride exposure increases the risk of low intelligence quotient (IQ) in China over the past 20 years. MEDLINE, SCI, and CNKI search were organized for all documents published, in English and Chinese, between 1988 and 2008 using the following keywords: fluorosis, fluoride, intelligence, and IQ. Further search was undertaken in the website www.fluorideresearch.org because this is a professional website concerning research on fluoride. Sixteen case-control studies that assessed the development of low IQ in children who had been exposed to fluoride earlier in their life were included in this review. A qualitative review of the studies found a consistent and strong association between the exposure to fluoride and low IQ. The meta-analyses of the case-control studies estimated that the odds ratio of IQ in endemic fluoride areas compared with nonfluoride areas or slight fluoride areas. The summarized weighted mean difference is -4.97 (95%confidence interval [CI] = -5.58 to -4.36; p < 0.01) using a fixed-effect model and -5.03 (95%CI = -6.51 to 3.55; p < 0.01) using a random-effect model, which means that children who live in a fluorosis area have five times higher odds of developing low IQ than those who live in a nonfluorosis area or a slight fluorosis area.

PMID: 18695947 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Billyb]

pronouncing forcefully that Vit D speeds eruption[/B] (in Qld -unfluoridated)to try to counter the notion that fluoride causes causes eruption delay (in the south - fluoridated)... YOU CANNOT PRODUCE THE DATA or RESEARCH!

You really are thick. At first I though you were just trying to keep thsi pointless debate going but it seems you really don't understand..

that's not meant to be a personal attack or anything, it's more an observation.

Medicowallet said this:

Whiskers, how many times do I have to say that the Vitamin D argument, even though it is appropriate, cannot be used until someone has some published evidence, as I tire of your immaturity of expecting me to address this issue. Are you still in school or are you an adult?

Keep reading it and reading it, until you absorb it and understand what it says. Keep trying, it'll come to you eventually. Then come back and post (actually, better if you dont )

 

[Whiskers]

Nope,

I was not backpeddling, merely stating facts.

If you were learned, you would understand that someone deficient in Vit D will benefit from more, but someone with adequate Vitamin D will not benefit.

You claim that I use Vitamin D as evidence, and I did state it could make a difference (yes vitamin d does improve mineralisation and speed eruption), but I cannot quantify this, AS I HAVE SAID ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS YOU FOOL. What is wrong with this.

Oooh, temper, temper... sticks and stones may break my bones, but name will never hurt me.

Sooo... you can make a statement (in an attempt) to rebut what I post without supporting peer reviewed evidence.

But, according to your own standard if I post anything without peer reviewed evidence, (acceptable to you that is), it's nothing but conspiracy theory, crap science etc etc.

YOU, have not posted a single piece of evidence that Vit D affects tooth eruption (others have, but you have not).

Similarly,[medicowallet Post # 575] "Also, care to read the report, they make an allowance for loss of deciduous teeth by natural causes. Also it is in the definition of dmft you useless under educated denial " I asked for "Again, I want page, paragraph or better still a snip of the section, because you guys have a poor history of quoting comments accurately, acknowledging the qualifications buried in the research, let alone interpreting those limitations and qualifications"... and alas, no proof.

And again, just as you keep bleating that the evidence is clear that fluoridation is an efficient (as distinct from efficacy) public health measure, without posting any independent holistic economic reports.

This demonstrates your complete unwillingness to support your so called professionalism to Analise the so called evidence from an impartial objective.

You and your high school straw man argument is pathetic and below me, son (yes I am frustrated in dealing with your blatant immaturity and incompetence, and I guess your high school teacher is too)

Just for the record (again in this thread) I completed my Business degree majoring in Accounting and Law ages ago... and just to pip you off a bit more, graduating in the top 15% and invited to join the Golden Key International Honour Society.

Probably my biggest achievement, as I recall, was for one assignment that amounted for most of the term marks where I was initially marked fail (F)... but upon appealing on the grounds that the question didn't strictly ask for what the lecturer thought, but something different to which I addressed... and I was consequently awarded a High Distinction (HD). I often appeal things with a high degree of success.

The point of my reluctantly blowing my own horn is that you are not as smart as you think you are with words (spin)... and I loovve picking or p!**!ng Smart @!ses off. :

C'mon medicowallet, put up or shut up.