Fluoride

[chops_a_must]

Chops, you say you're not convinced either way, but... you are "obviously glad to have fluoridated water" because you have two cracked teeth. Unless I am missing something that does not compute.

I don't think it is inconsistent. I am not too precious to think that my personal benefit is outweighed by the potential negative consequences to society as a whole. My benefit is really insignificant in the scheme of things.

 

[2020hindsight]

I'm still not convinced either way.

But in my case, as a notorious teeth grinder who has cracked 2 teeth in my sleep, I'm obviously glad to have fluorided water.

I bet in your deep subconscious that you're really p1ssed off that the water's flouridated, and that's why you grind your teeth.

My brother gave his kids fluoride even before it was used in the water supply - they now have brilliant teeth. - not sure if they have nightmares or whatever else the bad effects are. PS I'm personally ecstatic my kids had fluoride .

My dad was a dentist in Qld way back - very common for people to have all teeth pulled out in those days - and relatively young eg 50 and 60 yearold. True story - one old farmer came in to his surgery, sat down , and said " pull em all out , I'm sick of em / what'e left of em". So after that dad asked when would he like to be fitted for dentures ... the farmer replied " naaah - won't need em , sick of em".. dad tried to convince him but to no avail, and the farmer walked out.

After a few weeks he was back, and slightly humbled, gummed out "ok I'll have those dentures after all" - dad replied "so you couldn't eat as well as you thought with those gums" - "ah nooo", said the farmer staring at him... "nothing like that!! see, I find when I try to whistle, the bludy cows can't hear me."

 

[sam76]

on "Whats good for you" after the ad break (now) they are analysing flouride benefits and fears.

Channel 9 I think

 

[sam76]

on "Whats good for you" after the ad break (now) they are analysing flouride benefits and fears.

Channel 9 I think

From the website;

Does fluoride do more harm than good?


Last year, we ran a story on the best kind of water to drink ”” bottled, filtered, or tap ”” and boy, didn't that cause a stir.
The reason? A little thing called fluoride.

A key assumption we made was that adding fluoride to the water supply was a good thing, but quite a lot of angry letter writers told us they knew different. You see there are a lot of people out there who believe fluoridated water is doing the Australian public more harm than good.

Our reporter Michael Slater is going to take a closer look at the great fluoride debate.

Like any debate there are two sides.

For fluoride fan, Professor Ian Meyers of the Queensland School of Dentistry, the argument is simple ”” fluoride cuts cavities.

On the other side of the coin is Mark Diesendorf, a professor at the Institute of Environmental Studies at the University of New South Wales. He says there's no real hard evidence that fluoride reduces tooth decay.

"There have been studies that have shown no benefits at all from fluoride particularly on permanent teeth," he says.

Before we go on with this argument we should find out:

What is fluoride? It's a naturally occurring mineral found in water and some foods.

How's it supposed to work? It strengthens the enamel or surface of the tooth making it more resistant to the acid that causes cavities.

How does it get into our water? At water treatment works, like the one where Colin Nicholson is the Treatment Operations Manager. At this plant, water is taken from the nearby Hawkesbury River. After being cleaned with chemicals and filtered, the fluoride is added from this storage tank.

The key issue is how much is added, because fluoride is a poison.

Michael: "Now Colin, this is the fluoride … This is not looking too healthy or safe to me, with a [warning] sign like that."

Colin: "Yeah, but it's a concentrated acid form … by the time we add it at one milligram per litre it's a very minuscule amount and it's quite safe."

To make sure we are getting that tiny amount, Michael took a sample from the treatment plant and another from his own tap for independent testing.

So how were those fluoride levels? We found that both the tap water and the treatment plant water contained 0.9 parts per million of fluoride ions ”” so they're both exactly the same and it's just what Colin promised at the treatment plant.

Below 0.5 and both sides of the argument agree, fluoride has little effect on our teeth.

But does that mean it's good for us? The anti-fluoride camp says no one has investigated the long-term effects.

"The concern about fluoridated water is long term. People aren't going to drop dead from drinking a glass of fluoridated water, but they could have bone disease and other diseases for ingesting it for years and decades, says Professor Diesendorf."

What Professor Diesendorf is talking about is fluorosis, which can affect the entire body. It damages the bone structure causing pain and brittle bones that fracture more easily. It also damages the surface of teeth leading, ironically, to cavities.

But if you ask the pro-fluoride camp, they'll tell you it's practically impossible to overdose on fluoride.

Professor Meyers: "Dental and skeletal fluorosis will only occur where there's an excess of fluoride. There's no evidence of skeletal fluorosis in any communities that have artificial water fluoridation."

But a recent study by Harvard University in the United States, found a link between bone cancer ”” or osteosarcoma ”” and fluoridated water in boys only.

Professor Diesendorf: "If this evidence was seen for any pharmaceutical drug it would be immediately taken off the market, but fluoride is the protected pollutant I'm afraid."

Professor Meyers, on the other hand, says,"In the UK the York review looked at over 200 studies, which compared fluoridated communities and cancers ”” osteosarcomas ”” and found no relationship at all."

The fact is both sides of the argument can produce studies to support their view ”” there's no way of telling what's right. We also don't seem to have much choice because every capital city in Australia except Brisbane has fluoride added to the water supply and pouring out of your tap whether you like it or not.

Michael: "So should you stop drinking fluoridated water? Well I've been drinking it all my life and so far, so good … our public health experts believe the greater good is served by adding fluoride to the water supply."

But if you are concerned about fluoride, here are some alternatives:


Use water from rain tanks
Use a specialised purifier or reverse osmosis system to remove it from your personal supply
Buy specially marked "fluoride-free" bottled water.
The choice is yours.

 

[Knobby22]

Could you please explain just what you have decided is "crackpot argument".

Also, how exactly have you deduced that those against fluoridated water are the same people who are against vaccinations such as Whooping Cough and Measles?

I, for one, am not opposed but am in favour of vaccinations for the above two diseases. But I fail to see your point. Vaccinations are individually given and are therefore a choice. Putting fluoride in the water supply is rendering a basic human right in a first world country (drinking water supply) inaccessible to those of us who are adversely affected by fluoride.

Do you think that's fair?

A crackpot argument is one that states for instance -(both used in this thread) -that fluoride is used as a form of mind control and our government is doing it because the Nazis proved it worked so well or;
that the government is putting it into the water as it is a byproduct of a chemical process because they have to have some way of getting rid of it and puting it into our water supply is the way to do it. I think they are pretty clearly crackpot arguments.


I am not pro or anti fluoride, I just wanted to hear some sensible (ie not crackpot) argument. We are now getting some decent argument, particuarly from ajoz, 2020hindsight and sam76.

I decided to look up the Queensland Government site to see why they say they are fluoridating the water. Refer following.

http://www.fluoridationqld.com/fluoride_benefits.htm

Julia, with your teeth problem, that symptom (mottling of teeth) is described on the site. Very interesting and I sympathise with your plight. Surely if the government realise that that can happen to some people then you have a case to get them to pay to filter your water!!

 

[Julia]

Julia, with your teeth problem, that symptom (mottling of teeth) is described on the site. Very interesting and I sympathise with your plight. Surely if the government realise that that can happen to some people then you have a case to get them to pay to filter your water!!

Knobby, my teeth were not even "mottled". They were solidly rotten looking brown, and that was after just one month. What might the fluoride have been doing to my bones? The teeth were just something that was easy to see!
Get the government to pay for filtering my water? You must be joking!
Given the response I have received so far in terms of even having my objection noted, I'd be waiting until hell freezes over.

Amongst all this discussion, we are losing sight of the basic point:
that those who believe fluoride will be good for them are easily able to add it via tablets to their water, whereas those of us who know or believe it is harmful to us are simply going to have our basic right of a supply of drinking water removed from us.

I notice none of the pro-fluoride or even the sitting on the fence people have commented on my suggestion that adding fluoride to drinking water is no different in principle to adding any other antidote to any other common problem.
i.e. if you have poor dental hygiene, OK don't worry about taking responsibility for improving that and/or eating nutritious food rather than lots of sugar and acid: Big Brother will just add a poison to our water to help you continue to eat rubbish by providing a coating over your teeth. Doesn't matter that this measure will adversely affect a significant portion of the population.

We would not, of course, dare to suggest that the removal of the Dental Care scheme has anything to do with the increased rate of tooth decay.
Every week I see people whose teeth are rotting simply because they have been unable to access basic dental care.

Could someone - anyone who is pro-fluoride - please offer your response to my suggestion that, given we have an epidemic of depression, it would make sense to add anti depressants to the water supply.

Or perhaps we are more concerned about hypertension. So then we could add antihypertensive drugs to the water supply to protect those people who refuse to modify their diet and lifestyle sufficiently to lower their blood pressure. And in so doing, we drop the blood pressure of people who don't require this medication to a dangerously low level.

I just can't see how either of these examples (and I could think of more)
are any different from adding fluoride to the water. It would be an entirely different matter if fluoride was unavailable from any other source.

 

[wayneL]

Knobby, my teeth were not even "mottled". They were solidly rotten looking brown, and that was after just one month. What might the fluoride have been doing to my bones? The teeth were just something that was easy to see!
Get the government to pay for filtering my water? You must be joking!
Given the response I have received so far in terms of even having my objection noted, I'd be waiting until hell freezes over.

Amongst all this discussion, we are losing sight of the basic point:
that those who believe fluoride will be good for them are easily able to add it via tablets to their water, whereas those of us who know or believe it is harmful to us are simply going to have our basic right of a supply of drinking water removed from us.

I notice none of the pro-fluoride or even the sitting on the fence people have commented on my suggestion that adding fluoride to drinking water is no different in principle to adding any other antidote to any other common problem.
i.e. if you have poor dental hygiene, OK don't worry about taking responsibility for improving that and/or eating nutritious food rather than lots of sugar and acid: Big Brother will just add a poison to our water to help you continue to eat rubbish by providing a coating over your teeth. Doesn't matter that this measure will adversely affect a significant portion of the population.

We would not, of course, dare to suggest that the removal of the Dental Care scheme has anything to do with the increased rate of tooth decay.
Every week I see people whose teeth are rotting simply because they have been unable to access basic dental care.

Could someone - anyone who is pro-fluoride - please offer your response to my suggestion that, given we have an epidemic of depression, it would make sense to add anti depressants to the water supply.

Or perhaps we are more concerned about hypertension. So then we could add antihypertensive drugs to the water supply to protect those people who refuse to modify their diet and lifestyle sufficiently to lower their blood pressure. And in so doing, we drop the blood pressure of people who don't require this medication to a dangerously low level.

I just can't see how either of these examples (and I could think of more)
are any different from adding fluoride to the water. It would be an entirely different matter if fluoride was unavailable from any other source.

The "crackpot arguments" are pretty hard to believe, but with gu'mints insistence as this mass medicating, it does make one wonder.

 

[2020hindsight]

Amongst all this discussion, we are losing sight of the basic point:
that those who believe fluoride will be good for them are easily able to add it via tablets to their water, whereas those of us who know or believe it is harmful to us are simply going to have our basic right of a supply of drinking water removed from us.

I notice none of the pro-fluoride or even the sitting on the fence people have commented on my suggestion that adding fluoride to drinking water is no different in principle to adding any other antidote to any other common problem.

Well I'd have to agree with you Julia

I guess "they" could redeem themselves if they paid for it to be removed where people so require (and that would seem reasonable, you're right)

Personally I would add the tablets (as my brother did prior to it being "compulsory" in NSW) - but I hear you

Take em to court - do an "Erin Brockovich"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Brockovich

 

[disarray]

I notice none of the pro-fluoride or even the sitting on the fence people have commented on my suggestion that adding fluoride to drinking water is no different in principle to adding any other antidote to any other common problem.

Could someone - anyone who is pro-fluoride - please offer your response to my suggestion that, given we have an epidemic of depression, it would make sense to add anti depressants to the water supply.

i'm neither pro nor anti fluoride because the decision is moot for sydneysiders, but this will become a growing concern as time goes on.

we put antibiotics and hormones into our meat supply, fortify juices with folate and vitamins, pasteurise our milk and we have barely started with the genetic engineering of our livestock and crops. government health authorities do have a job to try and raise the standard of health for everyone and adding extras to our necessities is the easiest way to reach the largest number of people.

the use of antibiotics and hormones especially is a cause of concern to me.

 

[Kimosabi]

i'm neither pro nor anti fluoride because the decision is moot for sydneysiders, but this will become a growing concern as time goes on.

we put antibiotics and hormones into our meat supply, fortify juices with folate and vitamins, pasteurise our milk and we have barely started with the genetic engineering of our livestock and crops. government health authorities do have a job to try and raise the standard of health for everyone and adding extras to our necessities is the easiest way to reach the largest number of people.

the use of antibiotics and hormones especially is a cause of concern to me.

There ain't no money for the pharmacutical companies, if we have a healthy population.

The problem with most peoples health is that they are nutritionally deficient.

Buy Organic, it's the best thing you will ever do...

I started blending organic fruit/veges each morning and added spirulina, chlorella, brewers yeast, flax seed, purple dulse sea weed and raw honey.

I Lost 10 kg's(went from 100 to 90kg's) in 2 months without dieting or exercising and felt like I was 5 years younger...

 

[wayneL]

the use of antibiotics and hormones especially is a cause of concern to me.

Ditto

Buy Organic, it's the best thing you will ever do...

I started blending organic fruit/veges each morning and added spirulina, chlorella, brewers yeast, flax seed, purple dulse sea weed and raw honey.

I Lost 10 kg's(went from 100 to 90kg's) in 2 months without dieting or exercising and felt like I was 5 years younger...

...and ditto.

Though exercise is a definite plus to the mix.

In addition to a diet similar to the above, I've started doing something REALLY strenuous (at last after 5 years my body has healed enough) and I am feeling ####ing dangerous again... and the ladies are starting to look back. :

(NB Window shopping only )

 

[KIWIKARLOS]

i wouldn't mind giving some organic foods a go i try to eat more vegies etc now but i look at woolies vegies and wonder if they are really that good. I would mainly be after trying to detox the system and cleanse the skin and so does the missues.

Any one got any good recipes for organic meals, does this wonder drink you make for breakky just involve throwing them in a blender and then drinkin?

I've tried organic meat too thought it tastes better, and drink more water during the day and some veggie juice.

I want to do a detox thing but i can't handle eating only veggies for two weeks and eating 20 different pills a day.

 

[Kimosabi]

Ditto

...and ditto.

Though exercise is a definite plus to the mix.

In addition to a diet similar to the above, I've started doing something REALLY strenuous (at last after 5 years my body has healed enough) and I am feeling ####ing dangerous again... and the ladies are starting to look back. :

(NB Window shopping only )

Look up Dr Richard Schulze and Dr Christopher on Google Video, Youtube, etc.

I've watched about 50 hours of their videos and it will blow you away with what these guys can do with natural healing. They can cure all diseases except for old age.

Dr Christopher taught Dr Schulze.

For treating incurable diseases Dr Schulze uses a combination of Juicing, Nutritional Supplements like Spirulina, Chlorella etc, Herbs, Hydrotherapy, Body work, Cleanses, etc and the best thing is he tells/shows you how to make all the herbal formula's etc.

The key is that everything has to be Organic or Wild Picked, and the most interesting thing though, is that Dr Schulze's says the most powerful of all the treatments was hydrotherapy, ie Hot/Cold Showers because this really get the blood flowing through the body, combine this with super nutrition and your body starts fixing itself.

All the naysayers can keep doing what their doing and continue to get butchered by the medical profession but the tecniques these guys use can produce healing miracles...

 

[Julia]

Occasional fasting is good.

For pain, I've recently found acupuncture (traditional Chinese Medicine doctor) to be amazing. Nine months of pain was just exacerbated by physios and a Bowen therapist. Two sessions with a funny little Chinese lady and I have almost no pain.

 

[Bowey]

Re: Fluoride - a killer chemical?

A while ago I did a lot of research on the effects of flouride, which needs to be separated into (1) Hydra-Silica Flouride (in treated water) and (2) Calcium Flouride (in toothpaste) and (a) affect on teeth and (b) affect on internal organs and bones. Excuse me if the names are wrong, but can't quite remember the exact names at the moment.

The first chemical (Silica Flouride) is a toxic byproduct of certain heavy industries (including mining) and is dumped into the water supplies of major towns by well-meaning government bodies who think they are doing you a favour. This is almost free to the councils and governments and I think industry pay THEM for the privilege of dumping it into our drinking supplies. This particular variant of flouride has not been shown to help teeth at all. Mostly used by industrialised countries whose factories/smelters product the stuff and have nowehere else to safely dump them. Anyhow, read the PDF file by the ex-member of the ACT Assembly committee, and see what he says about the suppression of adverse reports of flouride use - scary!

The second chemical (2) Calcium Flouride is the one that is recommended for direct dental use on the teeth - not drinking and ingesting into the body. The benefits of this are not really certain either, but those who want to use it are advised to brush with flouride toothpaste (and rinse well - because it can poison small children if they swallow a pea sized amount!) or put flouride tablets in their water. When you think of flouridated water coming from your tap you would assume they put this "safer" calcium flouride in it, but they don't, because it's just too expensive to buy, instead they put the industrial waste Silica Flouride in the drinking water.

When I saw all this, my first reaction was "why" and "is this for real", so I sent some email to local water bodies and found they were actually treating our water with the industrial waste "Silica Flouride", not the Calcium Flouride stuff.

It all stems from some dud research studies in the 70's which showed that Calcium Flouride prevented decay etc, and so the myth grew and dentist jumped on board and govt's jumped on board to flouridate and now its almost sacrilige to question those original findings. However good or bad those studies were, they didn't intend for us to (a) "ingest" the flouride and (b) use industrial variants of flouride....there are many links between excessive flouride and Mottled Teeth in children (brown/white patches) and Osteoperosis, heardening of arteries etc.

Most of Third World countries don't have flouridation, many countries in Europe don't have flouridation, they say there is no proven benefit. If you don't wan't decay in your teeth, stop eating sugar and brush regularly.

If you want to do the research yourself, contact the state or federal Dept of Health or your local water authority and ask for the "independant" (not sponsored by Colgate or Oral-B) studies that they used to show flouride in your water is beneficial to you - they won't have any!

Some people would just believe what they have always believed and can't bring themselves to look at the facts, so I do not apologise for my opinions above. Also, I filter my water but most carbon type filters will only remove half the flouride in tap water, so you must buy a Reverse Osmosis machine or an Ioniser to completely remove flouride.

Also remember that there are liability issues here by authorities suddenly admitting that flouride is not as good for you as they thought, so they will simply not admit this.

Enough ranting, hope you find it useful and DYOR (as they like to say on this forum).

 

[Kimosabi]

Occasional fasting is good.

For pain, I've recently found acupuncture (traditional Chinese Medicine doctor) to be amazing. Nine months of pain was just exacerbated by physios and a Bowen therapist. Two sessions with a funny little Chinese lady and I have almost no pain.

Try Hot/Cold Showers. Start with Hot, then turn the hot off for a Minute and then turn the Hot back on, repeating Seven Times. If possible, try going bit hotter after the first cold.

Finish with Hot if you want to sleep after the shower or finish with cold if you want to go to work etc.

The purpose of this is to get the blood flowing. The hot brings the blood to the surface and the cold pushes your blood into the core. This stimulates your lymphatic system as well.

I'd also recommend getting a shower filter to get rid of the chlorine out the water as well, because chlorine is even worse for you than flouride...

More info on Dr Schulze and Hydrothery here ==> http://members.tripod.com/healingtools/thn9.html

 

[Yezzy]

Had fluoride in the water in Townsville for years, no dramas up here. Good to see the rest of the state catch up to reality.

 

[Bowey]

I'd also recommend getting a shower filter to get rid of the chlorine out the water as well, because chlorine is even worse for you than flouride...

More info on Dr Schulze and Hydrothery here ==> http://members.tripod.com/healingtools/thn9.html

Kimosabi, I totally agree, I invested in a chlorine shower filter and immediately noticed the difference - less odour in the bathroom, skin not as dry and feeling more energised overall. Seems extreme I know, but I didn't notice how bad I felt showeing with chlorinated water until I installed this filter - honest to god. I can't recommend this enough.

 

[sails]

Occasional fasting is good.

For pain, I've recently found acupuncture (traditional Chinese Medicine doctor) to be amazing. Nine months of pain was just exacerbated by physios and a Bowen therapist. Two sessions with a funny little Chinese lady and I have almost no pain.

So glad you've found something that works - great news

 

[disarray]

melbourne water has a decent write-up of their flurodisation program at their website

from the site ...

Fluoride in drinking water is supported by the World Health Organization, the Australian Dental Association, the Australian Medical Association, the National Health and Medical Research Council of Australia, the Australian College of General Practitioners and The Public Health Association of Australia Inc.

Fluoridation is recognised as a safe and effective public health measure demonstrated to improve the dental health of the community.

If you would like to know more about fluoride and health, please contact the Department of Human Services on 9616 8467 (Dental Health Unit) or 9637 4000 (Environmental Health Unit), or visit www.dhs.vic.gov.au (Department of Human Services), www.adavb.com.au (Australian Dental Association) or www.health.gov.au/nhmrc (National Health and Medical Research Council).

advice on how to remove fluoride from drinking water

Wiki entry on water fluoride controversy