Energy Security

[Smurf1976]

Having a consistent and ongoing plan seems to be more viable in government organisations where cost and competition is less of a worry.

Looking at history, gas has always been at least partly private and in several states government never had anything to do with it.

Versus electricity where every state has at least some history of full government ownership and a central state authority.

Both approaches worked. For example AGL did a perfectly adequate job of planning, building and operating Sydney's gas supply in its very long history as a shareholder owned monopoly gas supplier. It's a company with a 184 year history - only in recent times has it been subject to competition or involved in the electricity industry.

Likewise it could be said that the various state electricity authorities were more than capable of getting things done, indeed some punched well above their weight in terms of technological development.

So the key isn't who owns it, just that there's some overall plan being devised by competent people and that it's all proceeding smoothly from investigation > planning and design > construction when needed > operation once it's built. And that all those bits are actually happening, they're all technically competent, and so on.

Basic problem we have today is that all stopped in the 1990's.

 

[Smurf1976]

Those batteries look as useful as ts on a bull.

As a source of short term "fine tuning" they're actually brilliant simply due to their extremely fast response.

As a means of bulk energy storage though, you're right.

I'll liken batteries to a small courier van in the context of freight. Good for the last bit, good to get the thing to the customer, but not suitable for hauling bulk quantities.

Past 24 hours use of batteries (only) in SA. Light blue is charging, dark blue is discharging.

 

[sptrawler]

Rio Tinto boss says he regrets ambitious emissions targets

Chief executive Jakob Stausholm has made some frank comments at a business breakfast in Perth on the pace and feasibility of emissions and renewables targets.

www.watoday.com.au

Rio Tinto boss Jakob Stausholm has admitted he regrets the company’s ambitious emission reduction targets, doubling down on comments about the feasibility of moving to renewable energy at the pace expected.

“There have been a lot of strong statements made [about the energy transition], but I don’t think people have realised and accounted for the process of getting the land, the cultural clearings and then executing the project,” Stausholm told a business breakfast in Perth on Friday.

He said the global miner remained committed to its multibillion-dollar plans to reduce emissions across its assets by 15 per cent come 2025, to halve its carbon footprint by 2030 and reach net-zero by 2050.
But he doubled down on comments he made about the world “fooling itself” on the timeline, warning the miner would need to make hard decisions over the next 12 months if it were to overcome the challenges to sourcing clean power in Australia and curb its “huge carbon footprint”.

And he said space, the negotiation of land deals with traditional landowners and the time required to execute projects of the scale required were chief among them.
“We’re committed to addressing climate change, but you need to be realistic about what it takes,” he said.
“I continue to stick to the targets set, but in hindsight, I probably regret that I set a target for 2025 and 2030.
“We will reach our targets, but it is going to be hard and we will have to make hard choices this year.”

He reflected on the scale of the operation required to shift Rio Tinto’s aluminium refineries and smelters in Queensland and New South Wales to renewable energy, assets which make it one of the nation’s top carbon emitters.

 

[mullokintyre]

We installed solar panels and battery systems on our house to provide a greater level of energy security/reliability than we had previously.
After six months using it, mostly over summer when there is plenty of sun, I found the following stats.
Total Solar output : 6,500 KWH
Total Consumtion : 4,280 KHH
Grid Supply : 1,135 KWH
feed back to grid : 1,196 KWH
So In six months, we sent back to the grid more than we took out.
This despite the fact that for the entire period, we have had an electric car that largely charges about 80% from our home supply.
More than happy with that, and somewhat surprised.
What i am not surprised at is that so far, we have not been paid a cent from Origin for the feedback electrons.
Something about not getting the correct paperwork, and not having had a final inspection.
I wonder how much the electricity retailers are getting for free?
Mick

 

[Smurf1976]

What i am not surprised at is that so far, we have not been paid a cent from Origin for the feedback electrons.

If you'd like to see an electrician erupt into a fit of rage then the words to say are "power of choice". Actually don't do that.....

In short, that's the politicians' idea that took metering out of the hands of electricity distributors and gave it to retailers. Now that might sound simple but it makes for an administrative nightmare when companies in the sole business of retailing are now also in the business of performing physical electrical work or contracting someone to do so.

That's almost certainly where it has gone wrong.

Has a new (replacement) meter been installed as part of the solar installation?

Or do you at least already have a Type 4 meter (in layman's terms that's identifiable an electronic meter, that is one with an LCD display and not physical dials and rotating disc, with an antenna mounted on top of the switchboard enclosure)?

For reference:

Type 5 meter = electronic meter without communications. So no antenna.

Type 6 meter = good old mechanical rotating disc with dials above. Zero electronics.

Don't worry about Types 1 - 3 unless you're running a factory etc you won't have one.

 

[sptrawler]

Hey @Smurf1976 , the digital TOD electronic meter I had to pay for, when I installed the solar, has now been replaced with a new meter free of charge, that can do heaps more including remote disconnection I think. ?

Advanced meters

Advanced metering - Synergy

www.synergy.net.au

https://www.westernpower.com.au/community/news-opinion/get-to-know-your-advanced-meter/

 

[Smurf1976]

Hey @Smurf1976 , the digital TOD electronic meter I had to pay for, when I installed the solar, has now been replaced with a new meter free of charge, that can do heaps more including remote disconnection I think. ?

In WA you might have an advantage if the distributor is running it?

Eastern states and SA we're stuck with a politically created situation where the retailer is responsible for all new metering whilst old metering is still the distributors.

Eg SA Power Networks (SAPN) is the distributor and runs the physical network but no longer does new metering. That's now the responsibility of Origin, AGL, Energy Australia, Red, Lumo, Momentum, Alinta, Simply Energy or whichever other retailer the customer chooses to use.

To say that's created some issues would be quite an understatement.....

The issues aren't technical, just with administration, organisation etc since technically the meters all have to comply to the same standards. All remote read with communications and so on.

The meters have two independent channels and yes there's a relay to switch them off. Common arrangement is to use 1 channel for the normal supply and the second channel for Off Peak Controlled Load intermittent supply available at off-peak times only (for storage water heating, EV charging, swimming pool heating, etc). Typical timing for OPCL "on" period being 10am - 3pm and 1am - 6am but can be varied as per the supply situation on any given day given the meters have remote communications.

One retailer is also offering the second channel as a means to comply with the requirement to be able to remotely disconnect solar systems. Normally that's done via the inverter itself but if the property doesn't have an internet connection (for whatever reason) then that idea doesn't work and so the use of the second meter channel, whilst somewhat brutal in a technical sense, is a workaround.

FWIW - Tasmania tried "plug in" meters 30 or so years ago. There's a base that the electrician installs during the switchboard installation then the meters simply push into that base, meaning a meter replacement takes essentially no time at all on the electricity authority's part since they literally just plug in and that both connects and physically secures them. Also means the electrician can do a complete job just without the meter installed. Seemed like a good idea I thought but no other state went with it and it was uneconomic to keep manufacturing them for the small Tas market so that was the end of it.

WA had the idea of a window on the enclosure to enable reading the meter without having to open the door. Another "obvious" idea but other states didn't copy it.

And just to complicate it, the Victorian meters use a different standard to everywhere else.

 

[mullokintyre]

And just to complicate it, the Victorian meters use a different standard to everywhere else.

Well, it IS Victoria!
Mick

 

[mullokintyre]

If you'd like to see an electrician erupt into a fit of rage then the words to say are "power of choice". Actually don't do that.....

In short, that's the politicians' idea that took metering out of the hands of electricity distributors and gave it to retailers. Now that might sound simple but it makes for an administrative nightmare when companies in the sole business of retailing are now also in the business of performing physical electrical work or contracting someone to do so.

That's almost certainly where it has gone wrong.

Has a new (replacement) meter been installed as part of the solar installation?

No, its the orignal meter.

Or do you at least already have a Type 4 meter (in layman's terms that's identifiable an electronic meter, that is one with an LCD display and not physical dials and rotating disc, with an antenna mounted on top of the switchboard enclosure)?

Its a smart meter, similar to the one below

Mick

 

[Sean K]

We really need to keep an eye on the European countries who are dishing coal and nuclear for renewables to see how our energy security is going to be affected. #BlackOutBowen and the Greens are going to be the source of trouble in the next few years....

From the nasty Murdoch news:

Since the 19th century, the phrase “Made in Germany” has denoted quality and reliability in manufacturing. This reputation, and the exports that have flowed from it, has enabled Germany to build the fourth-largest economy in the world - sometimes described as the enginehouse of the eurozone.

But in recent years some of Germany’s most famous brands have moved their manufacturing offshore, and the head of the German Industry Federation, Siegfried Russwurm, has warned that energy prices are so high the country risks losing many of its companies altogether.

Entering a recession in the first quarter of this year, Germany’s recovery has been slower than expected. The Federation of German Business recently found that 16 per cent of businesses surveyed are already in the process of leaving the country, with another 30 per cent planning on following suit. Tesla has halted plans to build factories near Berlin, and the European Commission predicts Germany will be one of the slowest-growing economies this year.

Of course, the factors contributing to this economic decline are complex, but one key policy decision made in the mid-2000s appears to have played a pivotal role. With the benefit of hindsight, we can now see that during her tenure as chancellor, Angela Merkel embarked upon a decision that would prove to be one of the greatest policy mistakes ever made.

A decade ago, Germany had 17 nuclear plants in operation and sourced around one-quarter of its energy from nuclear energy. Although the nation has always had a vocal “dark green” environmentalist movement that advocated for “degrowth”, Merkel originally resisted calls from anti-nuclear advocates, describing their policy preferences as “absolutely wrong”.

But that all changed in 2011, in the wake of Fukushima. The New York Times reported at the time that Merkel “reached the momentous decision to phase out nuclear power by 2022 after discussing it one night over red wine with her husband, Joachim Sauer, a physicist and university professor, at their apartment in central Berlin”. It would prove to be a monumental mistake.

 

[Sean K]

"closer to a rolling energy crisis"....

Former AGL boss and power industry veteran Michael Fraser says Australia needs a reality check about meeting its net zero targets as the nation moves ever closer to a rolling energy crisis.

One of the country’s most experienced power executives, Mr Fraser told The Australian the race to take coal and gas out of the system meant the coming decade was likely to be marked by regular blackouts and surging prices, given the massive shortfall in efforts to switch the power grid to renewables.

“Nobody’s saying that we’re on schedule or ahead of schedule. We’re behind schedule,” said Mr Fraser, who ran Australia’s biggest power generator for eight years until 2015.

He cautioned of “a return to the 1970s” when state-backed power networks suffered from chronic blackouts. However, this time it would cause “political and economic upheaval”.

 

[mullokintyre]

We installed solar panels and battery systems on our house to provide a greater level of energy security/reliability than we had previously.
After six months using it, mostly over summer when there is plenty of sun, I found the following stats.
Total Solar output : 6,500 KWH
Total Consumtion : 4,280 KHH
Grid Supply : 1,135 KWH
feed back to grid : 1,196 KWH
So In six months, we sent back to the grid more than we took out.
This despite the fact that for the entire period, we have had an electric car that largely charges about 80% from our home supply.
More than happy with that, and somewhat surprised.
What i am not surprised at is that so far, we have not been paid a cent from Origin for the feedback electrons.
Something about not getting the correct paperwork, and not having had a final inspection.
I wonder how much the electricity retailers are getting for free?
Mick

Another problem to add to the issues of energy security.
Over the weekend I found that the online real time usage data that has been posted on the WWW, was no longer being posted.
A small hiccup me thinks, but this morning when I tried to contact the Company that did the installation, I find all their phones are no longer connected, their web site has disappeared, and the premises where they worked from is now up for lease.
Have no idea what happened, they jhave just gone like a puff of dust in the wind.
So now i have to find someone else willing to put some time in to find out how it all worked and what to do to fix it if it has an error.
Has not really filled me with great confidence.
So much for being energy secure.
Mick

 

[sptrawler]

Another problem to add to the issues of energy security.
Over the weekend I found that the online real time usage data that has been posted on the WWW, was no longer being posted.
A small hiccup me thinks, but this morning when I tried to contact the Company that did the installation, I find all their phones are no longer connected, their web site has disappeared, and the premises where they worked from is now up for lease.
Have no idea what happened, they jhave just gone like a puff of dust in the wind.
So now i have to find someone else willing to put some time in to find out how it all worked and what to do to fix it if it has an error.
Has not really filled me with great confidence.
So much for being energy secure.
Mick

Yes it is a big problem in Australia, smaller companies fold all the time.
I guess you will have to ascertain, what gear they have used then hopefully the component manufacturers have support tech dept.
When I worked in remote generation, we decided to support a local PLC manufacturer, that didn't work out well for us either, similar experience to yours.

 

[IFocus]

Another problem to add to the issues of energy security.
Over the weekend I found that the online real time usage data that has been posted on the WWW, was no longer being posted.
A small hiccup me thinks, but this morning when I tried to contact the Company that did the installation, I find all their phones are no longer connected, their web site has disappeared, and the premises where they worked from is now up for lease.
Have no idea what happened, they jhave just gone like a puff of dust in the wind.
So now i have to find someone else willing to put some time in to find out how it all worked and what to do to fix it if it has an error.
Has not really filled me with great confidence.
So much for being energy secure.
Mick

That's typical of the industry in WA alone when I looked at installing solar on our place over 200 companies had gone under or disappeared there were only two from memory that had been around for longer than 15 to 20 years.

 

[sptrawler]

Coal seems to be starting to shut up shop.

2022

Wollongong Resources plans to extend Russell Vale after South32 abandons Dendrobium proposal

If approved an extension to the Russell Vale coal mine will see the company continue to build its workforce in the Illawarra region as production increases, chief executive says.

www.abc.net.au

On Friday, Wollongong Resources chief executive officer Greg Pawley confirmed the company would take a contrary approach and hoped to continue mining at Russell Vale for up to a decade.

"We currently are in the process of submitting another extension for another five or 10 years," Mr Pawley said.

2024

Coal mine to close in Wollongong, impacting more than 100 workers

The troubled Russell Vale Colliery, located in the northern Illawarra region of New South Wales, has notified its workforce of its impending closure.

www.abc.net.au

The troubled Russell Vale Colliery, located in the northern Illawarra region, has notified its workforce of its impending closure.

Wollongong Resources communicated the decision to employees through an email on Monday, affecting approximately 145 workers.

The coal mine had come under scrutiny from the New South Wales Resources Regulator and was placed under a prohibition order that stopped work at the site after five underground fires.

On January 18, after an investigation into the fifth "friction fire" on January 5, the Resources Regulator issued the order "prohibiting all coal mining at the site because of safety concerns".

At the time, unions were told all workers were stood down without pay as the operator worked through the selection process for who would be made redundant.

In Monday's email, Wollongong Resources said the decision had been made "by our owners due to ongoing regulatory risk and lack of support".

It is understood the decision will also apply to the company's Wongawilli Colliery, which was granted approval from the state government to continue operation in 2022 after a number of safety concerns left the mine in care and maintenance.

2023

Worsley Alumina converts first boiler from coal to natural gas

Worsley Alumina has completed the conversion of the first of its coal-fired boilers to natural gas, helping to reduce the operation's greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions.

www.south32.net

 

[qldfrog]

Coal seems to be starting to shut up shop.

2022

Wollongong Resources plans to extend Russell Vale after South32 abandons Dendrobium proposal

If approved an extension to the Russell Vale coal mine will see the company continue to build its workforce in the Illawarra region as production increases, chief executive says.

www.abc.net.au

On Friday, Wollongong Resources chief executive officer Greg Pawley confirmed the company would take a contrary approach and hoped to continue mining at Russell Vale for up to a decade.

"We currently are in the process of submitting another extension for another five or 10 years," Mr Pawley said.

2024

Coal mine to close in Wollongong, impacting more than 100 workers

The troubled Russell Vale Colliery, located in the northern Illawarra region of New South Wales, has notified its workforce of its impending closure.

www.abc.net.au

The troubled Russell Vale Colliery, located in the northern Illawarra region, has notified its workforce of its impending closure.

Wollongong Resources communicated the decision to employees through an email on Monday, affecting approximately 145 workers.

The coal mine had come under scrutiny from the New South Wales Resources Regulator and was placed under a prohibition order that stopped work at the site after five underground fires.

On January 18, after an investigation into the fifth "friction fire" on January 5, the Resources Regulator issued the order "prohibiting all coal mining at the site because of safety concerns".

At the time, unions were told all workers were stood down without pay as the operator worked through the selection process for who would be made redundant.

In Monday's email, Wollongong Resources said the decision had been made "by our owners due to ongoing regulatory risk and lack of support".

It is understood the decision will also apply to the company's Wongawilli Colliery, which was granted approval from the state government to continue operation in 2022 after a number of safety concerns left the mine in care and maintenance.

2023

Worsley Alumina converts first boiler from coal to natural gas

Worsley Alumina has completed the conversion of the first of its coal-fired boilers to natural gas, helping to reduce the operation's greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions.

www.south32.net

And while we are destroying our energy security as well as our economy.
Lucky we feel good saving the planet

 

[sptrawler]

And while we are destroying our energy security as well as our economy.
Lucky we feel good saving the planet
View attachment 184357

Yes it is a strange situation, we smugly feel good about our clean agenda, while we fill our houses with cheap products made in China with dirty electricity, we are really just offshoring our demand for electricity by offshoring our heavy industrial energy users.
My guess is, by the end of the next election cycle in 2028, the energy debate will be completely different to what it is now, because the situation will be obvious to everyone whether this plan is working or not.
In a way the issues will be self resolving, because energy is critical to our social fabric, people expect continuous affordable electricity in Australia and at the moment that isn't happening as the subsidies prove.
So it will have to be sorted, one way or another.

 

[Smurf1976]

My guess is, by the end of the next election cycle in 2028, the energy debate will be completely different to what it is now

Latest rumour is a further extension to the operating life of Yallourn W power station (Vic) beyond the present closure date of 2028.

Trouble is, there are real limits to how much longer that can go on before it becomes impractical. Best explained by noting the original commissioning dates of the four in service generating units were 1973, 1975 and two in 1981 and apart from maintenance outages and breakdowns they've been in constant use all that time.

 

[sptrawler]

Latest rumour is a further extension to the operating life of Yallourn W power station (Vic) beyond the present closure date of 2028.

Trouble is, there are real limits to how much longer that can go on before it becomes impractical. Best explained by noting the original commissioning dates of the four in service generating units were 1973, 1975 and two in 1981 and apart from maintenance outages and breakdowns they've been in constant use all that time.

They are around the same age as unit 6 stage C at Muja, I worked on the construction of stage C Muja when I was a young bloke in 1969, so I understand how old and worn out coal fired plant is, I feel the same. Lol

What make are the Yallourn units? If the turbines are Parsons, they will will be really tired, if the boilers are ICAL they seem to hold together pretty well.

 

[Smurf1976]

What make are the Yallourn units? If the turbines are Parsons, they will will be really tired, if the boilers are ICAL they seem to hold together pretty well.

That's getting beyond things I know about but the generating plant is listed as Toshiba.

For the boilers, units 1 & 2 are JT while 3 & 4 are ICAL.

They run at different pressure too. 1 & 2 are 12,800 kPa whilst 3&4 are 16,800 kPa.

Nominal unit ratings when commissioned were 350MW each for 1 & 2 and 375MW each for 3 & 4. In practice they run to about 360 and 380 respectively depending on coal quality.

Other differences are 1 & 2 each have their own cooling tower whilst 3 & 4 share a single cooling tower.

It's a bit of a technicality to say it's one station really. I'd be a bit more accurate to say its two stations, two units each, built right next to each other and given the same name. There are two stacks, two conveyors, etc and they were built as a separate project albeit one after the other.

Noting that other plant also historically operated at Yallourn during the period 1924 - 1989. That's now closed and completely demolished to ground level.

For those unfamiliar: JT = John Thompson. ICAL = International Combustion Australia Ltd. In layman's terms they're companies that manufacture boilers.

This photo, taken from the rear, shows it pretty clearly that it's really two stations next to each other. W station is in the background with the cooling towers, boilers for 3&4 on the left and 1&2 on the right. Old E and D stations (now demolished) in foreground at bottom of photo. Date would be shortly after completion of W station construction so about 40 years ago.

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