Electrical advice

[Julia]

I seem to recall at least one electrician forum member who has in the past posted electrical advice, and would be grateful if that person or anyone else with the appropriate qualifications could give me some info on the following:

I intend to change the running of all the equipment asssociated with swimming pool from Tariff 11 (full rate) to Tariff 33 (about half the cost) and have been assured by my local electricity supplier (Ergon) that will only mean power will be unavailable between the hours of 5 p.m and 9pm which is fine for my purposes. This adviser has told me to get an electrician to "put in a wire for a new meter" and tell the electrician its purpose. Then get back to the supplier and they will install the meter and do the switch over. Sounds very straightforward.

Phoned an electrician today who said I would have to get a whole new meter box (have looked at the existing one and there's plenty of room for a third meter) and the whole job would cost about $400. Doesn't sound very realistic or reasonable to me and I suspect he could be playing on my ignorance. The Ergon adviser indicated it would be a fairly simple matter to add a third meter in my existing meter box.

If anyone can give me some indication of how complicated or otherwise this job is and a rough idea of the cost, I'd be really grateful.

Julia

 

[GreatPig]

Julia,

I've studied electrical engineering, but don't know anything about that stuff sorry.

Perhaps try asking a few more electricians.

Cheers,
GP

 

[Hanrahan]

Are you sure you don't already have meter installed for your hot water?

I would do as GP suggests and get another quote, but even if you must spend the money it would be worth it. You could then run your air cons off it too. I think you'll find they don't switch off the T33 for the whole time nor every day.

 

[sam76]

Julia, I think Smurf is your man for this question.

 

[Smurf1976]

Happy to help...

You refer to a third meter. I assume that you already have an off-peak hot water heater connected to the shorter hours (night only, the cheapest rate) off-peak tariff in addition to the standard light & power meter?

Any chance you could send a photo of the box? PM me for my email address. Also, how old is the switchboard (probably the same age as the house unless the house is very old)?

In general it shouldn't be a big job though so I am very suspicious of the price quoted. But it's possibly valid hence the questions.

I'm at work now so will post some more detailed response tonight. Also the supplier, Ergon, am I correct in saying that is in Queensland?

 

[canny]

Julia, looks like Smurf is well on the job - but just to confirm that my pool was hard wired to the existing low tariff water meter without needing a 3rd meter.

 

[Julia]

Many thanks for helpful replies.

Yes, certainly I'd get more quotes, but just thought I might be able to access some reliable info before doing so in order to know whether I'm getting the stuff that goes "she's a woman, she'll have no idea how much it should cost" (which of course is true).

Smurf, I don't have a photograph- in fact only a fairly old camera which isn't working properly. The switchboard is nearly 13 years old (age of house).
It has a lift-up metal lid hinged at the top and there are two meters already and plenty of space for a third. One meter is for Tariff 11 which is full rate for ordinary power. The other is for Tariff 31 which is overnight only for the hot water. Tariff 31 wouldn't be OK for the pool as I don't want to run either the pool or the heat pump after dark.

Yes, Ergon is regional Queensland

The box looks as if it was designed to carry a third meter as that sort of space is vacant. These are across the top of the board, and all the fuses (trip switches?) - sorry I don't know the language - are lined up across the bottom.

When I had the pool heat pump installed a few months ago an extra one of these switches or whatever was installed and labelled accordingly.

What I want to be able to do is run the pool pump, filter, solar pump and heat pump on Tariff 33 which will about halve my pool running costs. Using the heat pump during the winter months pushed my quarterly power bill up to over $500 so if I can shave a bit off that it will certainly be worth the initial outlay.

Do appreciate the help.

Julia

 

[money tree]

you can either:

- have the hot water meter (31) changed to 33, and add the pool to it. there will be a small increase in the hot water bill. no meterbox upgrade is required.

or

- run the pool on tarriff 31. unless the noise is too much at night. again no meterbox upgrade required.

$400 is CHEAP for a meterbox upgrade. Most charge $650 - $900. Its not just a case of adding a 3rd meter. There is also another ripple control receiver to fit in there.

either of these options will cost around $200 - $250. A new "tarriff 33" main switch is required along with 2 subordinate circuit breakers for pool and HW. Also some cabling is required. Then there is the nasty paperwork which adds about half an hour.

hanrahan, if you run your A/C off any other tarriff than 11 you will be heavily fined.

 

[Smurf1976]

hanrahan, if you run your A/C off any other tarriff than 11 you will be heavily fined.

*Warning: Long post only of interest if you want to save some money on electricity. You could save 50%+ though so might be interesting to someone.*

Your electricity distributor can generally approve non-standard uses of tariffs. In Queensland you can certainly run clothes dryers, domestic freezers, dishwashers, swimming pools and the like on off-peak if you want to PROVIDED THAT there is no means of switching it over to the continuous supply when the off-peak is off. The appliance will need to be permanently wired in (not plugged in) to meet this requirement. To comply with the Wiring Rules this generally precludes the connection of anything "portable".

It would be unusual to connect an A/C to an off-peak tariff but some distributors may approve it. The case would certainly be enhanced for approval if there was a technical basis such as a high thermal mass in the house which limits temperature fluctuations thus not requiring 24-hour supply to the A/C. You would have to ask the electricity distributor what its view is since it will vary enormously between states and even between distributors (note: distributor as opposed to retailer although retailers also have their own rules) in the same state.

In Victoria some distributors offer discount 24-hour supply for A/C used for heating during Winter with standard rates applying in Summer. This makes the installation of a reverse cycle unit for both heating and cooling very attractive rather than using gas heating. You can also connect a bathroom Tastic to this (but only if A/C is also connected).

In Tasmania A/C is actually quite common despite the minimal need for cooling since it is by far the cheapest form of heating (and heating can be a significant cost in Tas). Aurora Energy offers a discount year-round tariff (T42) commonly known as "HydroHeat" (a term with which the general public in Tas is very familiar) for any permanently connected electric heating system (doesn't have to be A/C) installed in the main living area provided that it meets some simple technical requirements. Other heaters (except Tastics) anywhere in the house can also be connected to this as long as the main living area is connected as can smaller (not off-peak) hot water heaters. Can also be used to boost solar hot water etc. This is a 24-Hour tariff priced between the standard rate and the off-peak rates.

Off-peak conditions vary somewhat around the country but briefly it's as follows. The night only rate is always the cheapest with the extended hours off-peak being priced somewhere between that and the 24-hour rate.

Qld - Two rates either "night only" or for about 18 hours per day (minimum time, it's generally longer).

NSW - Very similar to Queensland.

Both NSW and Qld use remote switching via high frequency injection and as such the actual times will vary a little from day to day according to actual power demand. The other states use timers installed at the switchboard - these are not adjustable except by the electricity supplier and are not generally adjusted for daylight savings.

Vic - Night only for hot water but an afternoon boost is available for space heating only. Different rate depending on how long it is on for at night (6 or 8 hours) and some distributors / retailers also offer a 4 hour rate which is very cheap for boosting solar hot water. Most modern hot water heaters will be fine on 6 hours so don't pay for 8 hours unnecessarily. To check, divide the element rating in Watts (eg 4800W which is 4.8kW) by the size of the water tank (eg 315 litres) and if the number you get is close to 15 (or higher) then 6 hours will be fine. Typically the tank would be either 250l/3600W, 315l/4800W or 400l/6000W which are all fine on 6 hours. If it's 315 litre / 3600W etc then you need the 8 hours.

Tas - Night only (9 to 11 hours which is relatively long) or with an afternoon boost at a higher rate (usually about 13 hours per day in total but if you ask nicely and have a sensible reason then they'll generally be reasonable and give a bit more time). Either rate can be applied to hot water (including solar boost and heat pump water heaters), storage space heating or anything else that is approved. Not for A/C etc (use HydroHeat).

SA - Night only. Used mainly for hot water. Not sure how flexible they are about other uses.

WA - Has an off-peak tariff in the SWIS (South-West Interconnected System - Perth and greater surrounds) area for 6 hours (night only). Not sure about their attitude to non-water heating uses.

All states - if you have a TOU (Time Of Use) meter where the rates vary according to the time of the day (including Pay As You Go meters in Tas) then you could have your own timer and set whatever times you want according to how much you're prepared to pay. If doing this with hot water etc. then remember that it will run flat out when first switched on so start at a very cheap period and if you want to extend the time then extend the end (when it will often have turned itself off via the thermostat anyway) rather than bringing forward the start.

 

[money tree]

interesting smurf

I have asked Energex a few times about running A/C on tariff 33 and always receive a stern "NO". They argue that cheaper electricity will encourage more people to crank up the A/C during a heatwave, leading to brownouts. But our electrical infrastructure up here is as bad as it gets, so other states may be more relaxed.

trivia: leaving your computer on costs 30c an hour (or 40c if you leave the monitor on as well)

 

[Smurf1976]

Many thanks for helpful replies.

Yes, certainly I'd get more quotes, but just thought I might be able to access some reliable info before doing so in order to know whether I'm getting the stuff that goes "she's a woman, she'll have no idea how much it should cost" (which of course is true).

Smurf, I don't have a photograph- in fact only a fairly old camera which isn't working properly. The switchboard is nearly 13 years old (age of house).
It has a lift-up metal lid hinged at the top and there are two meters already and plenty of space for a third. One meter is for Tariff 11 which is full rate for ordinary power. The other is for Tariff 31 which is overnight only for the hot water. Tariff 31 wouldn't be OK for the pool as I don't want to run either the pool or the heat pump after dark.

Yes, Ergon is regional Queensland

The box looks as if it was designed to carry a third meter as that sort of space is vacant. These are across the top of the board, and all the fuses (trip switches?) - sorry I don't know the language - are lined up across the bottom.

When I had the pool heat pump installed a few months ago an extra one of these switches or whatever was installed and labelled accordingly.

What I want to be able to do is run the pool pump, filter, solar pump and heat pump on Tariff 33 which will about halve my pool running costs. Using the heat pump during the winter months pushed my quarterly power bill up to over $500 so if I can shave a bit off that it will certainly be worth the initial outlay.

Do appreciate the help.

Julia

If it's only 13 years old then there shouldn't be too many problems as long as everything fits. That really is the key - fitting everything in place.

In addition to the extra meter you will also need an additional ripple control switch (the switch that turns the off-peak on and off. They have various different common names depending on location). Ergon supplies this but it needs to fit on the switchboard. It will be the same size as the one that you would already have for the hot water. (It's possible that this may be installed on the back of the board and not be readily visible - different distributors will have different rules about where it goes but in general it should be easily visible).

So, if the extra meter and off-peak control will fit then that solves that problem. The next one is the switch for the pool euipment itself. There may not be enough space to fit additional circuit breakers ("circuit breaker" is the proper term for what are commonly called "switches", "trip switches" and so on) in the existing switchboard module (the plastic which surrounds the circuit breakers). This can be overcome by either replacing it with a larger module or adding a separate smaller one just for the pool. Either approach is safe - the question is one of fitting it all in. Replacing the module will add more to the labour cost than adding a separate module. If it were me then I would just add the additional small module unless there is a compelling reason (space or aesthetics, for example) not to.

As I said, it's a matter of space. $400 is excessive if it's just a simple wiring change and rearranging a circuit breaker or two. They're charging double if that's all that is required. But if there's a problem with fitting in the meters (sounds like there isn't) or fitting additonal circuit breakers then it doesn't sound too bad. In fact it sounds too cheap to be replacing the whole switchboard so I doubt there's a problem with fitting the meters in.

Assuming that the meters aren't the problem, there's no point even considering running the hot water on the extended hours off-peak (18+ hours per day) since there would be little to gain apart from higher power bills. But if the meters are the problem then it's worth doing the sums. Your hot water bill would go up about 50% though so only do this if there really is a problem with the 3 meter option.

I would be asking them and anyone else you get a quote from to explain to you WHAT they are going to do and WHY they are going to do it.

Going off topic a bit but whilst you are doing this it's a good time to check if an RCD (Residual Current Device - "Safety Switch" as most people call them) is installed. These are compulsory in new houses and in some circumstances are compulsory in existing installations too. This has nothing to do with the changeover too off-peak but if you are doing anything to the switchboard then you don't want to install something that's too small to fit RCD's in and have to replace it later. And if you refer to them as RCD's rather than "safety switches" then the electrician will think you know something about it which can always help. RCD's are easily identifiable as they will have a "test" button on the front which trips the power off when pressed. Next to that is the reset button which turns it back on.

RDS's are there to protect human life from electrocution. They are quite effective but you should NEVER test the unit by putting a fork in a power point etc (believe me, people do it!). Just press the test button instead - there should be an immediate click and the power goes out. Push the reset button and it comes straight back on. RCD's do little to protect property from fire however. Circuit breakers, on the other hand, are there to protect property (by preventing fires) but are not effective at preventing electrocution. All homes will (or at least should!!!) have circuit breakers (of fuses if it's an older building) but many don't have RCD's. It's much safer to have both. One RCD can protect everything on that meter although if you have the $ then a separate one for the lighting circuit can avoid being plunged into darkness because something went wrong with the toaster. But if $ are an issue then it's quite OK to have the same one for the lights and everything else. (Note that things like water heaters, ovens etc. aren't generally connected to RCD's. Firstly because they tend to be quite safe. Also because they can cause false tripping of the RCD even though they are not faulty.)

 

[Smurf1976]

interesting smurf

I have asked Energex a few times about running A/C on tariff 33 and always receive a stern "NO". They argue that cheaper electricity will encourage more people to crank up the A/C during a heatwave, leading to brownouts. But our electrical infrastructure up here is as bad as it gets, so other states may be more relaxed.

Interesting position but if that's their approach then unfortunately you're stuck with it. I suspect it would have something to do with the regulatory process about their capital investments. If they push up the peak demand then they are allowed to pass through higher costs to consumers so could actually be making a profit from it. Perverse but possibly true. Either that or they are pursuing an outright conservation policy of cutting use and therefore see higher prices as an advantage.

Technically it would be an electricity utility's dream come true to get big power guzzlers like A/C on a remote switched tariff. So their thinking is most likely financially motivated.

 

[Julia]

Smurf & Moneytree,

Thank you both for your help.

I was offered the option of running the air conditioners on Tariff 33 as well as the pool, but have rejected this as power supply on that tariff is supposedly unavailable between 5 pm and 9pm which is a time when I could want to use it. I rarely use the aircon anyway - just occasionally overnights in summer, but probably no more than 10 nights a year.

Will check in the daylight tomorrow but think there is already an RCD installed.
I know that if I have two many appliances which are connected to the one circuit breaker on at the same time, just those appliances lose power which can be immediately restarted by switching back the switch on the circuit breaker in the power board. Does that make sense?

So, I have gathered from your replies that $400 is in fact not unreasonable and in fact cheap if a new meter box is required (or alternatively an auxiliary one installed for just the pool), but about double appropriate cost if new meter box is not required and additional meter and ripple control can be added to existing switchboard?

Thanks again for the info and advice.

All the best
Julia

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

You could dollar cost average your quotes and give them all some work to do based on an average price.

 

[Julia]

So far I've had one written quote ($800) and two phone estimates: one for
under $100 and the other for about $400!!!

Suppose the obvious thing to do is to get the two phone quoters to come out and look at the situation and give firm quote from there?

The $800 included such things as special additional timer device because the existing timer won't work its usual 24 hour cycle when the power supply is cut off for four hours per day. This I'm told will be approx another $160, plus charge for installation. Etc, etc, etc.......

Julia

 

[Smurf1976]

It sounds like you are seriously being messed around for what ought to be a simple job.

I suggest that you ask them to guarantee, in writing, that:

1. The installation will function as intended. That is with the pool equipment on the extended hours off-peak and hot water remaining on night only off-peak and a timer to switch the pool equipment on and off. Make sure they understand that you do NOT want the pool equipment to run all the time that the off-peak supply is on and require a timer.

2. That the installation will comply with AS3000 (pronounced A. S. Three Thousand). Strictly speaking it's actually AS/NZS3000 (Aus / NZ) but the accepted industry terminology is AS3000.

AS3000 is effectively the law when it comes to electrical wiring work. This is also known as the "Wiring Rules". It is a legal requirement for any electrical installation to comply with this unless the electricity supplier or regulatory authority specifically requires or approves a variation.

3. Inform them that you will be getting 3 quotes. Do not state who the other quotes are from. If any quote seems unreasonable, ask for an explanation of the work to be done AND WHY.

As for the timer, I would be asking for an explanation of what is planned and why. For long term reliability any timer or other switching device used with motors should have heavy duty contacts. Most hard wired timers will already have separate connections for the power supply to the timer itself (on 24 hours) and the power for the load being switched by the timer (connected to off-peak in your case). A plug in timer would not be suitable.

If you get a wide difference between quotes then I would be inclined to approach one in the middle and get a written guarantee on points 1+2.

 

[visual]

Hi All,
I realise that this is not about electrical problems,but I`m wondering if this has happened to anyone else.
About 7 years ago I bought a Maytag washing machine,supposedly so intelligent that it did`nt need a filter,you guessed it lint everywhere also even in the highest cycle clothes could be squessed by hand,had it changed twice finally got money back.Went to a more reliable retailer,seeing that filters were no longer being included as a necessity was adviced to go for a front loader,this time a Bendix highly recommended by the salesman,Yes I Know!!!!!!!!!!!changed twice,child lock stopped working after short time,noise equalled a boeing taking off,ripped shirts,and walked all over the washroom.Eventually the salesman organised a technician to come to my house in his presence,apparently on top of all that motor was banging on front panel and already dinted panel,tells me he hadn`t sold one of these in two years,yet highly recommended it to me,when I reminded him of it he just looked at me as if I wasnt there.Seeing that I needed a washing machine,and they were refusing my money back I opted for a Asko washing machine ,result two service calls ,and no fix to the noise and poor wash.Seeing that this was now my fifth machine I just put up with it ,guess what machine is now dead needs a new motor.These are all good reputable brands so what exactly is going on I ask,has the washing machine now become a disposable item as well.Can anyone beat that.Oh by the way at every turn I`ve been blamed for washing the wrong clothes !using the wrong soap(only use soap for front loaders)having the wrong type of water!putting the clothes in the wrong way!and the reputable retailer Harvey Norman of course.Final cost of machine 1600 dollars

 

[Smurf1976]

Oh by the way at every turn I`ve been blamed for washing the wrong clothes !using the wrong soap(only use soap for front loaders)having the wrong type of water!putting the clothes in the wrong way!and the reputable retailer Harvey Norman of course.Final cost of machine 1600 dollars

None of these things are legitimate explanations for failure of the washing machine. Excuses...

 

[Happy]

Visual,

It almost sounds that you can have a washing machine but should not use it.

 

[visual]

None of these things are legitimate explanations for failure of the washing machine. Excuses...

That's right, but apparently thats the name of the game, you are meant to get so disillusioned that in the end you give up.
However seeing that all these brands are priced above the 1000 dollars I certainly didnt and wont. But I would be interested if anyone else has had the same experience.