Julia
In Memoriam
- Joined
- 10 May 2005
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Dr Spash said trading schemes did not efficiently allocate emission cuts because their design was manipulated by vested interests. For example, in Australia, large polluters would be compensated with free permits while smaller, more competitive firms would have to buy theirs at auction. The schemes were also flawed because: global warming was caused by gases other than carbon; emissions were difficult to measure; carbon offsets bought from other countries were of dubious value; and the schemes "crowded out" voluntary action by individuals. He concludes that more direct measures, such as a carbon tax, regulations or new infrastructure would be simpler, more effective and less open to manipulation.
1. There is no greenhouse gas signal in the economic or human toll record of disasters.
2. The IPCC has dramatically underestimated the scale of the stabilization challenge.
3. Geoengineering via stratospheric injection or marine cloud whitening is a bad idea.
4. Air capture research is a very good idea.
5. Adaptation is very important and not a trade off with mitigation.
6. Current mitigation policies, at national and international levels, are inevitably doomed to fail.
7. An alternative approach to mitigation from that of the FCCC has better prospects for success.
8. Current technologies are not sufficient to reach mitigation goals.
9. In their political enthusiasm, some leading scientists have behaved badly.
10. Leading scientific assessments have botched major issues (like disasters).
OK guys here is your chance to step up and show the world where I am wrong based on a substantive discussion of issues that really matter. What do you say? All are welcome
As I see it, you've posted links that fail to show a minor role for CO2 in climate change, or to discredit IPCC modelling. As I've pointed out before, there is no such things as "the IPCC model". There are many models of many different systems which are developed and used by many different scientific groups whose work goes into the IPCC reports. Most of those models have been refined over decades as more information and more computing power becomes available. And the IPCC reports don't rely only on models; they also include observations from our own times, historical records, and records such as ice cores from the geological past.You haven't read me very well then. I have explicitly stated that co2 may have some role in CC, but that it is minor with no relation to the IPCC model. I have posted links which discredit IPCC modelling on a number of fronts. The IPCC model is essentially dead and kept in an upright position - Weekend AT Bernie's" style - by a corrupt organisation with an ulterior motive
That's a big enough statement that I can agree with it, but then the question becomes: HOW are land use and general pollution generating climate change? I don't recall, or perhaps I didn't understand, your answer to that.The major player is land use and general pollution.
Meanwhile these people (IPCC) condone all sorts of pollution by their silence, and sometimes actively create bigger problems.
(http://www1.ipcc.ch/about/index.htm)... to provide the decision-makers and others interested in climate change with an objective source of information about climate change. The IPCC does not conduct any research nor does it monitor climate related data or parameters. Its role is to assess on a comprehensive, objective, open and transparent basis the latest scientific, technical and socio-economic literature produced worldwide relevant to the understanding of the risk of human-induced climate change, its observed and projected impacts and options for adaptation and mitigation. IPCC reports should be neutral with respect to policy, although they need to deal objectively with policy relevant scientific, technical and socio economic factors. They should be of high scientific and technical standards, and aim to reflect a range of views, expertise and wide geographical coverage.
Isn't the stupid part of ethanol the growing of crops (notably US corn, which is a host of land use problems in its own right) for the sole purpose of making it? I don't know - I read today (http://www.newsweek.com/id/220552/ that Al Gore acknowledges in a new book that corn ethanol was a mistake. I also read today reports from 2005 about CSIRO scientists being forbidden from publicly discussing their work on climate change and its effects (they turned up when I googled CSIRO censorship).Ethanol as fuel is a prime example of gross the stupidity and counter-productive measures espoused by "them".
Fair enough, but not the discussion I thought we were having. I responded to Wayne's claims about the science of climate change. Policy issues are a whole different argument.The point I was trying to make in posting the link to the original article is this ecological economist's view that - as the Opposition and others have been attempting to suggest for some time - the government's proposed ETS is deeply flawed.
As I see it, you've posted links that fail to show a minor role for CO2 in climate change, or to discredit IPCC modelling. As I've pointed out before, there is no such things as "the IPCC model". There are many models of many different systems which are developed and used by many different scientific groups whose work goes into the IPCC reports. Most of those models have been refined over decades as more information and more computing power becomes available. And the IPCC reports don't rely only on models; they also include observations from our own times, historical records, and records such as ice cores from the geological past.
"IPCC Model" is a generic term. Please don't split hairs. Actually model is a laugh as the link I posted in another thread shows. Computers do not yet have the capability to model climate. As far as "observations" go, as sorts of incorrect conclusions can be derived when cherrypicking observations.
That's a big enough statement that I can agree with it, but then the question becomes: HOW are land use and general pollution generating climate change? I don't recall, or perhaps I didn't understand, your answer to that.
I think it's worth saying that some of the really disconnected discussions about climate happen because people are thinking in different time scales. I think that a big reason CO2 is regarded as so critical is that it persists in the atmosphere for centuries, which is why we keep hearing about temperature rises that are "locked in". The smallest unit of time for considering climate is 10 years, which is longer than elected politicians (or electors) usually look ahead.
Once again, the totality of climate factors is ignored, in favour of a singular factor
It's the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, not on general pollution. Their mandate is (http://www1.ipcc.ch/about/index.htm)
And therein lies an enormous problem!
Isn't the stupid part of ethanol the growing of crops (notably US corn, which is a host of land use problems in its own right) for the sole purpose of making it? I don't know - I read today (http://www.newsweek.com/id/220552/ that Al Gore acknowledges in a new book that corn ethanol was a mistake. I also read today reports from 2005 about CSIRO scientists being forbidden from publicly discussing their work on climate change and its effects (they turned up when I googled CSIRO censorship).
Any school kid with a calculators could have worked out that corn ethanol was counter productive. Another destructive cat out of the bag.
Ghoti
Apparently it is only the IPCC who think that atmospheric CO2 remains there for centuries.I think it's worth saying that some of the really disconnected discussions about climate happen because people are thinking in different time scales. I think that a big reason CO2 is regarded as so critical is that it persists in the atmosphere for centuries, which is why we keep hearing about temperature rises that are "locked in". The smallest unit of time for considering climate is 10 years, which is longer than elected politicians (or electors) usually look ahead.
Perhaps not apples and lobsters. All I produced was a cherry.Thanks Spooly. Like Wayne, you sent me off on a chase for better understanding.
My first response to the chart was to wonder why there's a 15-year gap between the newest of the background papers (1992) and the wildly different IPCC report (2007). If the IPCC results were very similar to the papers that suggest no dispute, but it's very unlikely that nothing was published for 15 years to produce such an huge difference.
To track down the reasons, I used Google with search terms "CO2 persistence", "carbon cycle", and "CO2 residence time". I followed up a number of links, but I didn't keep detailed notes of everything I read. Here's where I've got to.
My language was sloppy when I said the CO2 "persists". Persistence, like "residence time" (the heading of your chart) refers to the average time an individual CO2 molecule is likely to stay in the atmosphere before it becomes part of some chemical process that locks it up on land or in water. That's what all those papers in the chart are talking about.
The IPCC reports do not use "CO2" persistence, and they say why. One reason is that climate is affected by the total quantity of CO2 in the atmosphere, which depends on how much is being added and subtracted as well as how long each molecule stays there. The other is the "residence lifetime" of a molecule of CO2 is not constant: it depends on location, temperature, what's around for it to react with, and a whole lot of other variables which all change as the total quantity of CO2 changes. That means "residence lifetime" is both impossible to calculate and not useful for assessing climate effects of atmospheric CO2.
Instead the IPCC reports use "atmospheric lifetime" of CO2, which is the time required to restore equilibrium following an increase in its concentration in the atmosphere. Obviously that also depends on a multitude of variables, so the IPCC uses its standard 4 emissions scenarios to produce sample projections. They all show a wide range of lifetimes, all of them in centuries.
I don't which of the IPCC projections Spooly's chart purports to show.IPCC 2007. It doesn't matter, because the chart is comparing apples and a lobster. It's hardly surprising that the lobster looks out of place.
Worthwhile exercise. Thanks again.
Ghoti.
Perhaps not apples and lobsters. All I produced was a cherry.
Nice work
It’s looking increasingly like the sole purpose of the “hoax of the century” (climate change), so passionately promoted by bankers and governments, is to divert our attention from the crime of the century (GFC), so artfully perpetrated by the very same bankers and governments.
Richard Fisher, Sinnamon Park, Qld
Thanks Spooly. Like Wayne, you sent me off on a chase for better understanding.
My first response to the chart was to wonder why there's a 15-year gap between the newest of the background papers (1992) and the wildly different IPCC report (2007). If the IPCC results were very similar to the papers that suggest no dispute, but it's very unlikely that nothing was published for 15 years to produce such an huge difference.
To track down the reasons, I used Google with search terms "CO2 persistence", "carbon cycle", and "CO2 residence time". I followed up a number of links, but I didn't keep detailed notes of everything I read. Here's where I've got to.
My language was sloppy when I said the CO2 "persists". Persistence, like "residence time" (the heading of your chart) refers to the average time an individual CO2 molecule is likely to stay in the atmosphere before it becomes part of some chemical process that locks it up on land or in water. That's what all those papers in the chart are talking about.
The IPCC reports do not use "CO2" persistence, and they say why. One reason is that climate is affected by the total quantity of CO2 in the atmosphere, which depends on how much is being added and subtracted as well as how long each molecule stays there. The other is the "residence lifetime" of a molecule of CO2 is not constant: it depends on location, temperature, what's around for it to react with, and a whole lot of other variables which all change as the total quantity of CO2 changes. That means "residence lifetime" is both impossible to calculate and not useful for assessing climate effects of atmospheric CO2.
Instead the IPCC reports use "atmospheric lifetime" of CO2, which is the time required to restore equilibrium following an increase in its concentration in the atmosphere. Obviously that also depends on a multitude of variables, so the IPCC uses its standard 4 emissions scenarios to produce sample projections. They all show a wide range of lifetimes, all of them in centuries.
I don't which of the IPCC projections Spooly's chart purports to show. It doesn't matter, because the chart is comparing apples and a lobster. It's hardly surprising that the lobster looks out of place.
Worthwhile exercise. Thanks again.
Ghoti.
Hi Ghotib
You may be interested to read an essay by one of the IPCC's lead authors and a scientist without peer on climate and recognised as such by both sides of the Climate Change discussion.
He is Professor Richard Lindzen from MIT and his essay is titled "A Case Against Precipitous Climate Action".It is dated July 26 2009.
Here is the link- http://www.quadrant.org.au/blogs/doomed-planet/2009/07/resisting-climate-hysteria
Fantastic article Mikel. Thanks.
"Such hysteria simply represents the scientific illiteracy of much of the public, the susceptibility of the public to the substitution of repetition for truth, and the exploitation of these weaknesses by politicians, environmental promoters, and, after 20 years of media drum beating, many others as well."
We saw this principle (in bold) used with disturbing effect beginning some 75 years ago when an entire nation went somewhat mad and changed the phsych of humans for generations. (Hitler/Goebbels et al if the reference was too oblique).
We saw this principle (in bold) used with disturbing effect beginning some 75 years ago when an entire nation went somewhat mad and changed the phsych of humans for generations. (Hitler/Goebbels et al if the reference was too oblique).
..he argued that democracies needed propaganda to keep the uninformed citizenry in agreement with what the specialized class had determined was in their best interests.
..One of Bernays' favorite techniques for manipulating public opinion was the indirect use of "third party authorities" to plead his clients' causes. "If you can influence the leaders, either with or without their conscious cooperation, you automatically influence the group which they sway", he said.
“Today’s debate about global warming is essentially a debate about freedom. The environmentalists would like to mastermind each and every possible (and impossible) aspect of our lives.”
Vaclav Klaus
Blue Planet in Green Shackles
Here is an interesting article form the Sydney Morning Herald today -
Science cooks the books, driving sensible people to screaming point
November 11, 2009 devinemiranda@hotmail.com
Source: The Sydney Morning Herald
Link http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/opi...-people-to-screaming-point-20091111-i9vo.html
We weren't.
There is absolutely no one in the entire history of ASF who has the capacity to hijack threads with so many utter irrelevancies as you, 2020.
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