Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Does Portfolio Rebalancing Work?

Something occurred to me today...to keep it simple lets look at a 2 stock, 10K portfolio.

With Rebalancing

$5000 of ABC stock and $5000 of XYZ stock, 1 year passes and ABC has gone up 50% ($7500) and XYZ has gone down 50% ($2500) and we rebalance taking $2500 out of ABC and buying $2500 worth of XYZ so we are back to $5000 of each, 1 year passes and both stocks have gone up 50% so we now have $15000 worth of stock.



--------------

With NO rebalancing

$5000 of ABC stock and $5000 of XYZ stock, 1 year passes and ABC has gone up 50% ($7500) and XYZ has gone down 50% ($2500) and we do nothing, 1 year passes and both stocks have gone up 50% ~ our ABC stock is now worth $11250 and our XYZ stock is now worth $3750 so we now have $15000 worth of stock.

:dunno:

Did i miss something?

Hi So_Cynical. In terms of the basics of your thought experiment, no you did not miss anything. The reason why this particular path way did not add value is that both stocks moved upwards in the second period by exactly equal proportions. When that happens, rebal can't make money - but it doesn't lose you money either. But, as you know, stocks very rarely move up or down in identical rates of return. When they differ, particularly if they revert relative to one another from the returns prior to rebalancing, rebalancing makes money. So, given stocks move around, sometimes in the same direction as prior period to rebal (no money to be made) and sometimes in opposing directions to movement prior to rebal (money gets made), overall there is a positive expectancy [you'd see HR around 0.5 and slug >1]. But, as you know given you apply an average down strategy, this is probabilistic. Not every trade works, and some have to be cut - as per your HR being <1 (like the rest of us). I refer you to post #35 and #37 of "What has your hit and miss ration been?".

As skc mentions above, lots of things can happen but rebal is expected to provide outperformance over time, with increased likelihood with the progression of time. You are the house and offering Roulette. Anything can happen over short intervals including, say, 12 reds in a row [which is akin to a two stock portfolio in which one stock moves up by 50% per annum for a couple of years and another moving down in a mirror fashion]. It is a real scenario, but the chances of occurring are slim. Over the longer term, the casino is ahead - as you also know and any path taken to get there is just one of many that chance might have allowed.

As a rough and ready tool to progress your thought experiment, let's BS and assume that stock returns are just random numbers. Each stock return is an average return that you can set at your discretion +/- some random number. So, say, we rebalance each quarter. For quarter 1, say, Stock A has a return of 2.5% +/- 20%. You can change these as you wish. Produce a whatever-you-like (say, 5 years worth or 20 quarters) length of quarterly returns this way and you have our BS workbench approximation of a stock return. Do the same for Stock B, C, D,...maybe to 20 stocks, heck go for 50 too if this is just an experiment. These stocks can have different expected returns and different randomness around this expectation. So now you have our BS stock market. You can create a stock market with all stocks going up, mixed or all stocks going down. It doesn't matter, but you could do it if you wanted to. What matters is that the random movements in the stock prices are not wholly synchronized....and that the expected stock price movement in either direction does not exceed the magnitude of the random part of the return for the whole period [ie. pulling Reds twenty times in a row for all stocks in your portfolio]. In other words, hopefully you'll see fit not to assume that all stock prices have an expected move of +/-10% per month if each random part is +/-10% (you can see the symmetry for other figures that you could use) in the same or different directions to infinity or zero if you are trying to get something out of this. Or, you can do it with awareness of the remoteness of possibility. I'm not sure I have seen an equity market do 120% per annum ad infinitum. Individual stocks might, though, and you might wish to play with this [movement size and time concentration] in a portfolio to see what happens.

Calculate two things...

1. Each quarter, average the returns across all 20 stocks. These returns represent a rebalanced portfolio of equally weighted stocks. It doesn't have to be equally weighted, and you can do whatever you like with the weights as long as it is consistent with 2. Then accumulate these returns using compound returns. That is your total return for a rebalanced portfolio over the period.

2. Now, to calculate the return for an unbalanced buy-hold portfolio, you take the cumulative returns for each individual stock and average that. This is the buy and hold return for an initially equally weighted portfolio. Again, it doesn't have to start at equal weighting. It just has to be consistent with 1.

Keep pressing F9 and you will find that the difference between 1. and 2. jumps around. That's why it's called a probabilistic process. Any one F9 press produces one scenario. Anything can happen. Count them and you will tend to find that, most of the time, 1. exceeds 2. by a healthy margin. Keep records of it, and you'll probably find that the average difference is pretty interesting.

Although this is a BS stock market, you can feel free to progress to use real stocks and try it out. Just pick anything and give it a chance to play out over five years (it doesn't have to be five years...a longer period just helps you to see the conclusions more readily). Try heaps of different combinations of real stocks, or just try a diversified portfolio of 50-100 truly randomly selected ones. It would be helpful if you had a monkey to help you with this for authenticity. The monkey can use a dart or can point. In fact, they can do that at the end of each quarter and reshuffle the stocks (thus helping with the problem of high unemployment for primate stock selectors particularly in peripheral EZ), but keep the weighting schemes as they were, and that would be fine. For the fun of it, get the monkey trained by NASA and get it to choose amongst the stocks that lost value over the investment horizon you are testing. Choose any investment horizon over the period since stock markets were created.

Because it was a thought experiment, I imagine you don't really think in terms of two stock portfolios that move around by 50% amounts. If you are rebalancing quarterly, say, movements of 50% in opposing directions in a two stock portfolio are...remote. And you have found that it does not subtract value in your experiment.

We then come to two hoary issues:
1. What about commissions and taxes?
2. But...I have views on the market, does this override this?

1. Please feel free to model your commission for trades. In reality, you'd only rebalance significant outliers - say the 10 biggest misweighted positions each quarter as a rule of thumb. The small misweights don't matter much at all because they are...small. However, if your account size is small, commissions will be an issue. In that case, rebal works pretty well on annual periods. Go ahead and try it out (you already did, actually). So there are always ways to bring comm into small consideration. DO NOT cross the spread. These are non-urgent orders and you can just sit on the limit order book until someone comes to you for liquidity.

Taxes are interesting. If you are in pension mode, there's no issue. If in SMSF accumulation mode, then the worst case cap gain is 15%. Now check out what realistic turnover is and you'll find that it isn't much. It's all fractional stuff. Nothing like Martingale where you have to lay down exponentially larger bets as the market moves against you. Factor in the fact that you are accumulating investments...which means that you are buying at current prices and have fresh parcels. You are free to choose which tax parcels to liquidate. Hence, you just choose the most expensive, subject to the applicable tax rate to the parcel. When you allow for this and the fact that you are probably recycling dividends back into the market as well, you can generate more than adequate turnover without much cost in just about any scenario you wish to explore. When you move to max tax rate, and you are accumulating assets, then fairly similar things apply as per the SMSF accumulation. You generlally have enough room, or create enough room in your tax parcels for it not to be too much of an impediment. Given you are smart, if you found that there was a line or so that was 'locked' due to heavy tax implications for parcel harvesting then guess what...just leave them out. Things just aren't that sensitive to this stuff.

2. Does this mean that you can't express a view? WTF? Of course you can. Those simulations above are for an equally weighted portfolio. There's nothing stopping that from being any weighting scheme you want. Those weighting schemes are essentially your target weights in your portfolio. However they were derived - it doesn't matter. If you want to get a bit super-duper about it, then I refer you to Post #55 in "What has your hit and miss ration been?". It will explain the key concepts and roughing it will for your needs is just fine.

Overall it's just cream on the cake. But we are here to get phat.

Good trading to you, So_Cynical.
 
RY,

You are free to choose which tax parcels to liquidate.

Perhaps you don't understand the tax rules. From the ATO when you sell a parcel of shares they are considered to be the last ones you bought, you don't get to choose.
 
Hi So_Cynical. In terms of the basics of your thought experiment, no you did not miss anything.

Thanks for the reply, i don't often read long posts but you do write very well, even if im still very sceptical.

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RY,
Perhaps you don't understand the tax rules. From the ATO when you sell a parcel of shares they are considered to be the last ones you bought, you don't get to choose.

We have been over this, you do get to choose.
 
RY,



Perhaps you don't understand the tax rules. From the ATO when you sell a parcel of shares they are considered to be the last ones you bought, you don't get to choose.

BRTY - That is completely wrong.

If you are holding shares on a capital account (ie investor) you definitely get to choose and if you hold on revenue account as trading stock (ie trading as a business) then LIFO is actually the one method that is deemed not acceptable if you don't want to uniquely identify the lots
 
1. The $2500 gain on ABC in the first year is taxable, so at the 30% tax rate thats $750, plus 2 lots of transaction fees extra. Net result, worse off with rebalancing.

2. See what happens to your 2 stock portfolio if ABC goes up 50%/a for 5 years and XYZ goes down 50%/a for 5 years. That's when you see the risk of rebalancing.

1. You have missed something too.

XYZ is down $2500 in the first year and thus has a tax asset in the form of an embedded capital loss. This happens equal $750 providing an offset and the tax bill would be zero. Harvesting this tax asset costs $40 and the repurchase leg would include the rebalancing element. Total trading expense = $60. This is 0.6% of the asset base in this thought experiment for a very small $10k portfolio. Realistic rebalanced portfolios that have an annual rebal program have positive expectancy which exceeds this in the real world. This concept would apply to larger portfolios which would result in proportionately smaller commission load. It is also sensible for rebal to occur at the time when other portfolio activity is taking place. Hence this commission load is actually shared with trades in alignment with proprietary insight and would be smaller than reported above.

2. Sure. Certainly a valid scenario. Ouch.

Now, in the history of mankind, please list the names of stocks in any exchange whatsoever that have gone up 50%pa (or more) for five consecutive years and those which have gone down by 50%pa (or more) for five consecutive years. Then, when you have achieved than feat, please list the number of two-stock portfolios involving this list that could have been built - remembering that these results have to occur simultaneously. Then divide this by the number of two stock portfolios that could actually have been built at any time in the history of mankind for a period of five years. Just today, there are much more than 40 million such portfolios that could be built. That would be the probability of this scenario happening based on a grounded examination of history.

For this scenario to make any sense, a probability needs to be attached. Alternatively I could say "In the scenario where a Mars rover returned to earth spontaneously and stole my portfolio by hacking into my custodian records, rebal will do worse (actually it would match, but you might get the point)". There is no skill in inventing arbitrarily extreme scenarios without likelihood. What is that probability? How many zeros would there be behind the decimal point before you reached a figure other than zero? Ten? Twenty? Thirty? More...actually. This figure would approximate the likelihood of the Mars rover portfolio theft scenario to at least 30 steps behind the decimal point. Is that risky? Should we be scared? An asteroid strike landing on your house in the next year is a greater risk.
 
Thanks for the reply, i don't often read long posts but you do write very well, even if im still very sceptical.
.

It's totally cool to be skeptical. You opened your mind and considered it. We take our paths from there.

Good trading to you So_Cynical
 
RY,



Perhaps you don't understand the tax rules. From the ATO when you sell a parcel of shares they are considered to be the last ones you bought, you don't get to choose.

I am with Craft, you got this wrong as an investor you can chose which parcel of share to sell as long as you got proof when you bought it ...fairly easy with equity as you got buy and sell contracts issue to you by the brokers.

ATO link here explaining it

https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Capi...entifying-when-shares-or-units-were-acquired/
 
You are all talking about cap gain I believe. Yet my accountant has used LIFO for trading parcels (which we maybe discussing in rebal (if less than a year).

This on the ATO website

For the purpose of the holding period rule, if a shareholder purchases substantially identical shares in a company over a period of time, the holding period rule uses the ‘last in first out’ method to identify which shares will pass the holding period rule.

from here...

https://www.ato.gov.au/Print-publications/You-and-your-shares-2012-13/?page=11

This is in regard to franking credits, but I have been informed for short term trading as well (the trading stock is identical without specific identification), or should I say my tax has been based on this.
If different, I stand corrected. Can someone point me to something to show the accountant, please?
 
RY,

In this country I have only been able to claim a capital loss upon realisation, you can't claim an open loss against a closed gain. Where can you do that?

The point of doing the exercise with stocks that retreat by 50% per year is to see the weakness of rebal in an even portfolio (as in equal percentage of each stock) , as you originally were discussing. If stocks go down 50%40%20%60%30% then to zero, you are stuffed. In a 2 stock portfolio B+H, if one wins and the other goes to 0, you can still make money.
Put CFU in a 2 stock rebalanced portfolio over the last decade and see how you go compared to someone that just bought an equal share of 2 stocks, and just held. Any stock with it will do.
 
You are all talking about cap gain I believe. Yet my accountant has used LIFO for trading parcels (which we maybe discussing in rebal (if less than a year).

This on the ATO website



from here...

https://www.ato.gov.au/Print-publications/You-and-your-shares-2012-13/?page=11

This is in regard to franking credits, but I have been informed for short term trading as well (the trading stock is identical without specific identification), or should I say my tax has been based on this.
If different, I stand corrected. Can someone point me to something to show the accountant, please?


That use of LIFO in that situation is only to stop people avoiding the holding credit rules.

Sack your accountant.

http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?docid=TXR/TR964/NAT/ATO/00001
 
RY,

In this country I have only been able to claim a capital loss upon realisation, you can't claim an open loss against a closed gain. Where can you do that?

If you classify your shares as trading stock (which it sounds like your accountant is doing) then you can get a deduction on unrealised losses.

Of course that wouldn't actually be a "capital" loss but you get the picture. :)
 
You don't need your accountant a software like topshare will do a better job
At calculating your CG..

When you sell a parcel of shares you tick minimise capital gain
And it works out the best parcel of share to sell.

If there is a parcel that can be sell at a loss to offset capital gain it will do that for you
Or it can take 200 shares from this parcel or 300 shares from this parcel
etc....
 
1. You have missed something too.

XYZ is down $2500 in the first year and thus has a tax asset in the form of an embedded capital loss. This happens equal $750 providing an offset and the tax bill would be zero. Harvesting this tax asset costs $40 and the repurchase leg would include the rebalancing element. Total trading expense = $60. This is 0.6% of the asset base in this thought experiment for a very small $10k portfolio.
I understand that in this scenario you are referring to the fact that you can sell the parcel to realise the tax loss, and then repurchase an identical parcel on the market. In effect offsetting any gains made in rebalancing the parcel that was profitable.

If this is what you are doing, then I would be vary wary of doing this in practice. The ATO has not be too kind in recent years when considering any such schemes that have no other purpose than to derive a tax benefit. Especially when identical or similar parcels are repurchased very soon after the original sale (ie. your economic interest remains similar before and after the fact).

The resetting of cost bases to "harvest capital gains" has been raised by the ATO as a Division IVA target.

The practice is commonly called a "wash sale" or "tax loss selling."

Fairly sure that the relevant tax ruling is TR 2008/1.

http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?DocID=TXR/TR20081/NAT/ATO/00001&PiT=99991231235958

It may or may not apply to your circumstances, but you should definitely consider it.
 
I understand that in this scenario you are referring to the fact that you can sell the parcel to realise the tax loss, and then repurchase an identical parcel on the market. In effect offsetting any gains made in rebalancing the parcel that was profitable.

If this is what you are doing, then I would be vary wary of doing this in practice. The ATO has not be too kind in recent years when considering any such schemes that have no other purpose than to derive a tax benefit. Especially when identical or similar parcels are repurchased very soon after the original sale (ie. your economic interest remains similar before and after the fact).

The resetting of cost bases to "harvest capital gains" has been raised by the ATO as a Division IVA target.

The practice is commonly called a "wash sale" or "tax loss selling."

Fairly sure that the relevant tax ruling is TR 2008/1.

http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?DocID=TXR/TR20081/NAT/ATO/00001&PiT=99991231235958

It may or may not apply to your circumstances, but you should definitely consider it.

THIS IS NOT TAX ADVICE.

Hi Ves,

Wash sales refer to transactions which take place "within a short period of time of each other" (Paragraph 2).

Please refer to Example 2, Paragraph 28. As an example, the ATO has provided an indication of what they think is short. This is illustrated as a day.

This stuff is not sensitive to urgent trading at all and you can take economic risk as required and intended by the ruling.


Disclaimer: None of the above is an effort to constitute tax advice for anyone reading or otherwise in receipt of details in this post. I am not a tax adviser. Please seek advice from your own adviser.
 
Wash sales refer to transactions which take place "within a short period of time of each other" (Paragraph 2).

Please refer to Example 2, Paragraph 28. As an example, the ATO has provided an indication of what they think is short. This is illustrated as a day.

This stuff is not sensitive to urgent trading at all and you can take economic risk as required and intended by the ruling.
Of course you can reduce or take on additional economic risk (however, that may also detract from some of the "edge" of the process in itself).

In the ATO ruling Example 6 is probably more important than Example 2. "short period of time" is not defined, the ruling only shows that they consider one day is a "short period of time." Just because they do not say that anything longer than a day is OK, does not always make it so.

Example 6 shows what you mean about economic risk, and also infers that you might need to provide evidence or reasoning behind your buy or sell decision. Otherwise it is pretty hard to argue that you did not sell then repurchase to avoid a tax liability. Interestingly the time frame is this example is also longer.... and they are fairly silent on this factor. Hint hint.

So if I'm doing this, and my strategy, after vigorous research and analysis is to rebalance quarterly, but I don't want to pay any more tax in doing so, and do not want to take on (or reduce) unnecessary economic risk by sitting out of the market in one of my holdings, what do I do? I'm here to make money, not risk it by pissing the tax man off. ;)
 
Of course you can reduce or take on additional economic risk (however, that may also detract from some of the "edge" of the process in itself).

In the ATO ruling Example 6 is probably more important than Example 2. "short period of time" is not defined, the ruling only shows that they consider one day is a "short period of time." Just because they do not say that anything longer than a day is OK, does not always make it so.

Example 6 shows what you mean about economic risk, and also infers that you might need to provide evidence or reasoning behind your buy or sell decision. Otherwise it is pretty hard to argue that you did not sell then repurchase to avoid a tax liability. Interestingly the time frame is this example is also longer.... and they are fairly silent on this factor. Hint hint.

So if I'm doing this, and my strategy, after vigorous research and analysis is to rebalance quarterly, but I don't want to pay any more tax in doing so, and do not want to take on (or reduce) unnecessary economic risk by sitting out of the market in one of my holdings, what do I do? I'm here to make money, not risk it by pissing the tax man off. ;)

Hi Ves

Very sharp. You are right to manage your own concept of tax risk. And, you keep surprising on the upside. I am maximum long VES-AU.

Here are some thoughts. They do not constitute tax advice. They are just thoughts.

Example six refers to a time period of 3 days between sale and purchase. Example 2 refers to 1 day. Basically short is pretty short. In the two opportunities they had to provide examples, we get this.

Wash sales are particularly dominant in the months leading up to financial year end where sales take place on 30 June or the week prior only to be repurchased in early July. You can actually see it in the security prices and, to an extent, predict it. Also we're not talking like many weeks.

Part IVA also refers to a "predominant" reason and hence this also has to be balanced against economic risk. In the list of 8 considerations, they basically boil down to being out of the market (not switching the exposure by various mechanisms like family transfers, hedging or whatever) so you are devoid of economic exposure to the asset; and the period of time that this occurs in. The examples provided are for very short periods of time. But, as for just about everything in tax and law, they offer nothing explicit in terms of guidance and the case law develops as the boundaries are discovered. Words like 'substantively' and 'predominantly' are used. The Commissioner will 'give regard to' the time between sale and repurchase. Obviously stuff done overnight is at risk. And the risk declines from there. Everything we do is like this, except that a pattern of case law develops and people get the hint and back off - mostly. Further, any trading activity would be at risk for the same reasons.

There is a tax law for S177EA which relates to franking credits. These are subject to some of the harshest tax laws that can be found. For illustration, the Part IVA requirements look at 'predominant purpose' of an activity. To receive franking credits, they must be an 'incidental purpose'. In other words, you can't even think of them, but if they turn up...great. That is the literal translation! Yeah, we were shocked too. Taken to it's literal meaning, any thought to tilt your portfolio towards franked dividends because you are in SMSF accumulation or pension actually contravenes S177EA because you did it for more than an incidental purpose! And what about all those Imputation Funds? Remember, this is a very high priority for the ATO. Yet you don't see penioners getting dragged in for thinking about after tax yield. In any case, the Section requires to you be at risk (30% economic exposure and time of strategy initiation) for 45 days around a franking credit entitlement to receive it. This is much harsher than Part IVA, but at least provides guidance about the boundaries.

Hence the ATO has expressed say, unacceptable wash sale, at something like a week (7 days vs their longest example of 3). Their harshest rules relating to franking require 30% economic exposure for 45 days. This is sort of the same as two weeks at full exposure...just to provide a boundary of being economically at risk by ATO reckoning. Let's say we want to be 'really safe' and double that horizon to a month. In that time, any concept of economic risk that we can glean is acceptable from ATO S177EA is exceeded.

I don't know the case law for Part IVA, but I'll be very surprised if economic exposure of a month or more would be contested. Please let me know otherwise. Your tax agents should also know. I am not a tax expert or registered tax practitioner. I'm just reading what's in front of me - kind of like you. Also, back in the day, we sought and received tax advice from a major firm and then others in rotation relating to how we traded our portfolios in light of the release of this ruling in 2008. It indicated that we should steer clear of reversals unless for strong reasons like hedging newly developed risks. But they felt it safe to reverse positions in a period that was (quite a bit) less than a month. We were also subject to having to explain positions reversed for less than a week. That just gives you an idea of what the practice was. We never had an issue. That practice was never revised.

In other words, being out of the market for a month constitutes, for all practical purposes, sufficient economic risk to satisfy Part IVA.

So, does being out of the market for a stock matter much? Sticking to this 2 stock example, you'd have 25% out of the market for a month. If the market average return is 10% per annum and 'normal' cash rates are 4%, that means we can expect to forego 6%pa return for 25% of the portfolio...that would be 0.125% (pre-tax). And then you hold the stock for the remaining two months.

Now, does rebal - in isolation - get affected much? We've already allowed for the expected cost for being out of the market. What matters is that the stocks are volatile and that they are lowly correlated. All things equal, being out of the market for one month out of three reduces volatility by about 20% proportionately. Is you rebalanced six monthly, this figure is about 10%. That's not good for re-bal. However, the correlations fall to offset. The trade ff between them will depend on the nature of the relationship between and within each stock.

All this is total BS of course. BS ALERT!!! You'd never do it (creating economic risk buffers) sustainably unless you had sophisticated stuff and really wanted to spend time calculating and scheduling rebal time. You could, however, do it once in this scenario. My main purpose in pointing this out was to highlight that if you paid tax and rightfully declare it as a burden on your returns, it is also reasonable to outline that you have created a tax asset as well. This is a practice enshrined in accounting standards and professional investment performance presentation standards.

Getting back to reality, the real way you'd do this in a real-life situation that avoids all the ATO tax stuff is to pay your tax bill out of cash reserves. Thus, your expected potentiality will decline by the after tax return on the amount of cash you need to pony up to pay for the realized gain. Assuming you have a cash account for 4% and the tax rate is per BRTY's 30%, then that figure is $750 x 0.04 x (1-0.3) = $21. Hence your expected return is reduced by 0.21%. This tax asset can be expected to be harvested - this time without too much concern for ATO transgression - as the market rises and turnover occurs. Not too shabby.

Some things to consider:

The scenario put up by So_Cynical is obviously extreme for the purposes of a thought experiment. Big moves in opposite directions. That's about the worst case scenario that you can reasonably paint for these purposes although even worse outcomes are clearly possible. So the drag from cash, which will span a range depending on market conditions, is likely to be much smaller and eventually disappear if you believe in the equity risk premium at all. If you think equities will flat line forever, what are you doing in them at all?

Rebal is, for most, going to be a layer on top of an actively managed portfolio. In scenarios where re-bal happens to be highly synchronized with your trading, it could make it worse. But this is really a theoretical anomaly that I'm just putting out there. For symmetry, rebal might be negatively correlated with your active strategy and reduce tax drag. If you run the portfolio as pure re-bal then all of the drag is obviously attributable to re-bal.

In the situation where you get more gains and are turning them over, re-ball will be harvesting CGT. But the reality is that most accounts would be turned over anyway so additional turnover won't do a heck of a lot. The thread has also discussed how cash flow and reinvestment of dividends helps to reduce the tax cost of turnover.

Great pick up.

Cheers
 
I don’t see the tax issue as important in relation to re-balance even if you don’t do anything to realise any tax loses for balancing up the tax bill. End of the day we are only talking timing difference – not paying more CGT (and if we are paying more CGT in total it just means re-balance has worked).

As a long term holder I understand the unrealised tax liability can be a significant interest free loan, but I don’t see tinkering to re-balance really impacting its quantum that much especially when a lot of the rebalancing can be achieved by the dividend stream.

Now I don’t personally rebalance based solely on market price but I am continuously rebalancing based on my perception of value vs market price, by re-investing the dividend stream and if the opportunity gets large enough through capital transactions as well.
 
Here are some thoughts. They do not constitute tax advice. They are just thoughts.

Thanks RY, it is always nice to hear how things actually work in practice (ie. what some of the bigger firms do to avoid running foul of the tax office).

It's a bit of a grey area... but if you are aware of it, it is probably not a massive restriction on rebalancing in most cases.

I also agree that this would only be an issue in extreme cases, and as craft said, the tax liabilities in effect smooth out over the a very long time frame (the only difference is timing).

The ATO's pet play, funnily enough that you should mention franking credits, is "dividend washing" at the moment. It is (probably) unrelated to rebalancing, but it is interesting in the fact of how they communicated the issue, and how their actual enforcement of it varied (ie. initially they inferred that they would target it from 1 July 2014, however in the end they sent letters to investors who were suspected to have used "dividend washing" before this date and gave them the change to 'fess up). The ATO is often a strange beast.

Sorry to side-track the discussion.
 
Thanks RY, it is always nice to hear how things actually work in practice (ie. what some of the bigger firms do to avoid running foul of the tax office).

It's a bit of a grey area... but if you are aware of it, it is probably not a massive restriction on rebalancing in most cases.

I also agree that this would only be an issue in extreme cases, and as craft said, the tax liabilities in effect smooth out over the a very long time frame (the only difference is timing).

The ATO's pet play, funnily enough that you should mention franking credits, is "dividend washing" at the moment. It is (probably) unrelated to rebalancing, but it is interesting in the fact of how they communicated the issue, and how their actual enforcement of it varied (ie. initially they inferred that they would target it from 1 July 2014, however in the end they sent letters to investors who were suspected to have used "dividend washing" before this date and gave them the change to 'fess up). The ATO is often a strange beast.

Sorry to side-track the discussion.

Sorry to keep side-tracking...

How is it that you are so sharp on this? Others are too. I only knew this stuff because our L&C people dragged me into meetings with Tax Partners who looked at me sternly so I was led to believe they were actually serious whilst charging out $1,000 per hour or something and laughing on the inside. My knowledge is going to decay...how are you keeping up with it all?

Let me know if you want the stories on how the rules came to being.

Yeah, that div washing stuff is all linked to options creating a cum-div market for a few days around ex-div as calls are exercised. And then the hole was found and exploited. I would never have dared do this sytematically. But across the line for the ATO and way beyond the intent of the Act and any conceivable concept of 'incidental purpose'. Took years for the crackdown to occur. It's just an example of how much you can push the law beyond what is written before the ATO bites.

Cheers
 
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