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Does God Exist? [Arguments & Proofs]

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I call Poe.
 
bullsvsbears said:
Massive weight of evidence???? or was it force fed down your throat at school when you were young and impressionable only to become fact??
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There is a fair dose of irony in that statement.
 

Thanks Julia, I truly take my hat off to this post. (No sarcasm here)

It may come as a suprise but I was an atheist at one time and I understand the irrational aggressive approach atheists take when confronted with someone who believes in God. Thus, I have chosen to be confrontational rather than be submissive. Maybe it's the old atheist coming of of me (lol)

Like most atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. I would beat down anyone who acknowledged God's existence and challenge their intelligence. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.

I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.

My life now has true purpose and I have an inner peace that only came when I got to know God. Yes I still have ambitions to better myself but I don't place my happiness on my achievements. If one is honest with themselves they will admit that we are chasing shadows when we place our hope in material wealth or pleasures...it's just like a bottomless pit that one can never fill. Only God can give you that inner fulfillment and I came to realise this when I decided to leave my atheistic ways and acknowledge his existence.

I am happy to admit that I'm much, much happier now...and no I don't troll the internet looking for arguments! -That is what I used to do. I became a member of this forum because I have an interest in the stock market just like I assume every other member here does. I stumbled across this thread and was bemused why someone would create a 'do you believe in God?' thread via a stock discussion forum.
 
I read this on my facebook page, so i reckon its as valid as any other proof out there.

please close your eyes if you are easily offended.

The priest asks Johnny if he's not scared of meeting Satan. Little Johnny says "You are the one that must be scared; you talk **** about him every Sunday."
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Thank you for the explanation which is appreciated.

Can you say whether any life changing event was involved at any stage?
e.g. I know people who have come to a belief in a God after their life was saved in an accident etc?

Could it be that, as we all are, you were looking for some intrinsic meaning to your life, and eventually felt that if you could believe in a God then you'd found that point to your existence?

I'm genuinely interested, and am not at all ridiculing something on the basis that I don't happen to share such a belief.
 
wayneL said:
Is that a straw man argument?

If not, what is the relevance of the dino to bird myth?

If so, why immediately resort to argumentative fallacy?
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No, just a silly response regarding a thread here. I'm not for one minute suggesting you're claiming that particular 'gap', but rarther, as derty pointed out, genuinley interested in what the 'enoumous gaps' are.
 
bullsvsbears said:
Massive weight of evidence???? or was it force fed down your throat at school when you were young and impressionable only to become fact??
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If you want to involve yourself in debate over the authors of the bible, please do some reading by biblical scholars. Bart Ehrman would be a good place to start.

With research you will find that even the best christian scholars admit we plainly have no idea who wrote the gospels. Each gospel has a different slant (For example Mark is gnostic in tone) and there are many discrepancies between them over minor and major details.

bullsvsbears said:
There is no massive evidence supporting evolution but massive gap filling theories.
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The evidence for evolution is so overwhelming that to make such a statement only betrays your ignorance.

I wonder how many books written by evolutionary biologists you have read?

If you are interested in becoming educated, and therefore earning the right to be respected when you engage in conversation about evolution I would suggest reading the following:

-Evolution, what the fossils say and why it matters - Donald Prothero
-Why evolution is true - Jerry Coyne
-The making of the fittest - Sean B Carroll
-Relics of Eden: The Powerful Evidence of Evolution in Human DNA - Daniel J Fairbanks
-Your inner fish - Neil Shubin

bullsvsbears said:
Science has gone too far down the evolution track to admit it is wrong and many so called learned people make good money preaching such theories.
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Wow, you really need to educate yourself on how the scientific method works as a whole.

Science is all about falsifying hypotheses. In other words trying to disprove an hypothesis. Only once a hypothesis is proven to be robust, and falsification attempts have failed, then it is accepted.

To give a simple example, if the fossil of a recent mammal, for example humans, was found in a strata below dinosaurs or any other animal which is much older on the evolutionary scale, then instantly evolution would be falsified.

After 150 years of falsification attempts by millions of scientists worldwide, evolution still stands as a robust theory.

One of the greatest achievements a scientist can make in their career, is to show that an accepted piece of knowledge in science is wrong. There are literally millions of people who would LOVE to falsify evolutionary theory, it would mean fame and fortune. However evolution remains to this day one of the most evidenced and strongest theories in all of science.
 
They can say all they like about my ramblings; but

your post Twiddle, is spot on, excellent and I take my hat off to your academic insights and knowledge.
 

No life changing event but as I said in my previous post, the question of whether God exists really bothered me. I came to the realisation that it's rather dumb for me to oppose something unless I have a good grasp of what I am opposing. This led me to the bible and I began reading it with an open mind. Initially I found it difficult to comprehend however after spending a considerable amount of time, I realised that the message revealed through the bible can penetrate even the most hardened person like myself. I particularly focused on the four Gospels of the New Testament and did some research. l discovered that all four gospels were written by different authors at different locations. The message conveyed in all four Gospels was remarkably similar with only minor inconsistencies (ie one gospel claims the **** crowed twice and another tells us it crowed three times) The fact that these inconsistencies occurred gave me further clues to the bible's authenticity as it eliminated the possibility of plagiarism between authors and this gave the message credibility.

There were also many historians (particularly Romans) that independently confirmed Christ's existence. The fact many historians unequivocally accept the existence of Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar gave further evidence to Christs' existence due to the weight of historical accounts being far greater for Christ.


One thing Julia, we will all agree on is that unfortunately many religious denominations and some so called Christians have degraded God's word by their actions/inactions. However this is not a negative reflection on God's word but rather a sad indictment on human nature. That's why it is so important to know what you believe in so that the other people's failings don't affect you. Christ's message had no human agendas but he preached a message of love and salvation. He also left humanity with a moral code of ethics by which we should all strive to abide by and this would make it a far nicer world to live in. Our freedom of choice unfortunately sometimes takes us down a different path.

I could go on and on but I think I have said enough..... also, my wife & children are are starting to feel neglected
 

If you believe in evolution which you obviously do, have you contemplated the possibility that maybe God created all living species to evolve? The question still remains: how did man and and the millions of living creatures in our world evolve from dust? This is the question which science cannot give a definative answer.

Ps..After more than 2000 years of falsification attempts nobody has proved that God doesn't exist
 
As science discoveries build better pictures of our evolutionary history the religious leaders adjust their standing to suit.

There was a time when people, such as the likes of Galileo, Copernicus, Darwin and others, where labelled by the church as heretics.

From originally discounting any notion of evolution to now embracing it as GOD's work is really the only logical path for the religious "power brokers".
 
bullsvsbears said:
No life changing event but as I said in my previous post, the question of whether God exists really bothered me. I came to the realisation that it's rather dumb for me to oppose something unless I have a good grasp of what I am opposing.
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This paragraph is utterly comical when considering your puerile and ignorant objections to evolution.

You have a good grasp of evolution do you?

Without using google or a creationist website how about answering me these questions to show you have a good grasp of evolution.

1.) L-Gulano-Gamma-Lactone-Oxidase - Why is this enzyme important in the evidence for evolution?

2.) What is puntuacted equilibrium? (This is a very easy one)

3.) Why is the term "sleeping beauty" a triumph for evolution?

4.) Why does DNA anlysis of the now extinct Thylacine (tasmanian tiger) show it to be part of the Dasyuromorphia clade, when it clearly resembles a wolf more than the other types of marsupials in Australia where it is found?

5.) What are the three common types of mutations that bring about functional changes in DNA? Importantly, in one of the types, how is redundancy built which may enable further mutation accumulations to be expressed at a later date?

6.) Describe the rammifications of evo devo with respect to morphological changes and how it differs from the classic view of functional gene mutation.

7.) Desribe a geological event which would give rise to selective pressures where varying physcial traits will increase fitness. Furthermore describe the basis of natural selection from a genes eye view.

Provide good answers to these questions and it will mean one of two things.

a.) You have at least a cursory understanding of a fraction of the scientific evidence for evolution.

b.) You have googled the terms.

I very much doubt a, if b, at least it will do you good to gain some knowledge.



No objections here. Of course the message if powerful. Why do you think it is still around, and the most popular of all religions?

Under its premises you get:
-eternal life
-an imaginary friend who grants your wishes
-your enemies punished

It appeals to powerful base human instincts; fear, greed, paternal/maternal instincts.

I and many other Atheists would love it to be true. I spent the majority of my life thinking it was true. But eventually reality clawed me away from the comfort Christianity brings.

I honestly wish it were true...



This is one of the many, and a very minor one at that.

Others include to name a few;

-Different people being a Jesus' tomb, different between all gospels.

-No reference to Jesus being a god in Mark, and saying "why have you forsaken me" then dying. As apposed to the other accounts.

-Matthew blatantly plagarising the prior gospels and writing to obviously try and fullfil prophecy. E.G Jesus ridiculously entering a town on a Ass and a foal at the same time on palm sunday.

-The story of Jesus and the prostitute, cast the first stone, blatantly added at a later date in another language by a scribe.

-The day Jesus gets crucified if discrepant. Passover feast, day of etc.

These are but a few, I cannot be bothered listing more. Do yourself a favour and read some real biblical scholarship/textual criticism.

bullsvsbears said:
The fact that these inconsistencies occurred gave me further clues to the bible's authenticity as it eliminated the possibility of plagiarism between authors and this gave the message credibility.
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Interesting.

In a book inspired by the almighty and perfect all powerful god, you EXPECT mistakes?

One other explantion could be that the stories were passed down to people, and as such inconsistencies arose. We all know that humans have different views and like to put their own slant on things.

In fact if the bible is just the work of many different writers not inspired by god, you could sensibly make the prediction that it would contain inconsistencies. Interesting then that it does...

Do you really think it More plausible that God ordained a book to be riddled with inconsistencies and illogical doctrines. Not to mention doctrines that were to be utterly ignored at a later date. E.G

-Stone your neighbour to death if he works on the sabbath. - Numbers 15:32-36

-The smell of burning flesh pleases god. - Exodus 29:17-19

I won't bother listing the hundreds of bible verses which speak of genocide, condoned rape, slavery, human sacrifice etc.

Old testament you cry? Irrelevant, but OK here is some new testament ones for you.

-Give away all you own and follow christ. - Matthew 19:21

-Woman shall not speak in church. - 1 Corinthians 14:33-38

It has always baffled me how people still claim to be christians yet ignore the words of their god.

How many christians really give away all they own and rely on their god to provide?

And how many people pay attention to the blatantly sexist nature of scripture?



Utter Rubbish.

Provide evidence please.

And dont bother with josephus. It is widely accepted the testimony in flavianum is a Chrisitan forgery, even by many Christians.



One would have to wonder where this sinful nature comes from if god created us.

Free will you say?

Then why is it not a 50 - 50 proposition? Why do we lean to the side of "sin"? What prods us in the direction of sin?

We were created by a perfect creature after all, right?

Your god makes no sense.

BTW I hope you are here trying to steer us heathens away from investing/trading, and not interested in it yourself, after all...

But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is[a] to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." - Mark 24 - 25
 
bullsvsbears said:
Ps..After more than 2000 years of falsification attempts nobody has proved that God doesn't exist
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I hope you don't see that as an argument for the existence of God! Apart from logical contradictions, it is IMPOSSIBLE to prove the non-existence of anything. At best one can declare that it is highly unlikely that something doesn't exist, but it is impossible to prove that something doesn't exist.

To this day, nobody has proved that Zeus, the supreme god of the Olympians, doesn't exist. Nor for that matter Bertrand Russell's celestial teapot.

As mentioned thousands of times before, the onus is on those who claim something exists to prove it, not on others to disprove it.
 
Thank you for the detailed response, bvb. I accept that you say all you do from a position of genuine belief and I respect that.

But for that belief to have its credibility based on, e.g. the fact that the **** is supposed to have crowed one time more in a different gospel account just seems to me to be utterly illogical. How does a disparity in various accounts of the same event offered in the Bible mean that it's the word of God. I'd have thought the opposite to be true.

I'm really not trying to be disparaging or to in any way ridicule your beliefs, but your statement above simply seems to me to be a rationalisation of seeing what you want to see.

We all commonly seek to find in any texts a reinforcement of our existing beliefs. I acknowledge I do this myself. I will more readily read commentary which supports my intrinsic belief than the opposing point of view.
I don't think anyone on this thread has specifically doubted the existence of the person known as Jesus Christ. But it's the assertion that he was 'the son of God' etc that is rather more lacking in evidence.
Even the Muslims acknowledge the existence of Jesus Christ, as do e.g. the Mormons, but only Christians as far as I know insist he is 'the son of God' whatever that means.

No argument from me on the latter part of this statement. However, as already stated, I don't believe it is necessary to be attached to any religious beliefs to hold a decent set of human behaviours.

Christ's message had no human agendas but he preached a message of love and salvation.
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Um, salvation from what exactly? Can you explain how this works?

He also left humanity with a moral code of ethics by which we should all strive to abide by and this would make it a far nicer world to live in. Our freedom of choice unfortunately sometimes takes us down a different path.
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This has been addressed ad infinitum on this and other threads. We do not need a religious affiliation to be capable of distinguishing a decent code of human behaviour.
 

No scientist says life evolved from dust.

Once again this is a straw man agrument on your part.

Abiogenesis is clearly a very complex subject, I don't think any reasonable person can expect a complete answer at this stage when we are only 60 years on from Watson and Crick discovering the structure of DNA, and only 10 years on from mapping the human genome.

However, advancements are made every day, for example;

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/10/101005171032.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/10/101008121348.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/10/101004151725.htm

Three articles from just october alone in the popular press. Not scientific journals...

Recently you may have heard Craig Venter created a synthetic living organism. Exciting stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHIocNOHd7A


bullsvsbears said:
Ps..After more than 2000 years of falsification attempts nobody has proved that God doesn't exist
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You have it backwards. The burden of proof is with the person making the claim.

I will break it down for you.

Two claims;

a.) Evolution happens.

b.) Yahweh a singular god who sacrificed himself to himself, impregnated a virgin, and drowned all of humanity to have the earth repopulated by incest, exists.


Hypothesis for claim a:

If life forms change over time, we would expect to see evidence in the fossils we observe in the different strata of the earth. The older strata being deep the newer being close to the surface.

Fossil forms should:
-Change over time
-Be laid down in a sequence from simple to complex.
-Feature fossils which contain traits intermediary to distinct species.

Attempt to gain evidence/falsify claim a:
This is what we observe. And this is evidence for the claim.

Furthermore this has NOT been falsified.

(Please note fossil evidence is only a tiny fraction of the evidence for evolution, I use it because it is perhaps the easiest evidence to understand)

Hypothesis for claim b:

If god exists the way the bible says, then God answers prayer.

Attempt to gain evidence/falsiy claim b:
-Prayer studies have been done, which show prayer is not answered.

In the largest study ever undertaken it was shown intercessory prayer does not work.
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/04.06/05-prayer.html

Furthermore, you could pray right now for god to appear in your room, and I guarantee it would not happen. This is not evidence against because god may just be averse to appearing, but it certainly is not evidence FOR god.

So we have at least one hypothesis falsified, we could say that with current evidence it seems that if god exists he does not answer prayer, furthermore since the bible says that he does, perhaps the bible if not true.

Is this enough to rule out a god? Of course not... However, as you can see in the evidence stakes we have a logical reason to tentatively accept proposition a, but not b. Evidence is required for prop b - god exists. Until evidence is provided it is in the same boat as any other claim without evidence.
 
The only thing I don't understand is that with all the power "GOD'' has (so we're told) and the magical healing abilities all these ''Saints'' are claimed to have (Well done Mary!) why haven't any of them performed any miracles on any amputees?
Are they a product of Satan?? or is it just scientifically impossible?

They can cure cancer, restore sight, mend a sore back all while reaping the benefits of being all holy and magical but when it comes to Mr One Leg he misses out!
Cant they at least give someone a finger? C'mon!
Chopper is still waiting for his ears too!!

..God?

Evolution for me thanks. I'd rather be brainwashed by a stripper
 

Next time you are going to be brain washed could I come with you as I find church very boring.
 
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