Does God Exist? [Arguments & Proofs]

explod · 18 October 2010

bullsvsbears said:
If God doesn't exist then why do you waste your time refuting his existence.
It shouldn't matter to you what I think but it obviously does!!!

It is not being refuted and it is being made clear that we do not know if he exists or not.

You seem to think that he exists so it is up to you to prove that.

It is well proven that our form and species evolved from more primitive species right back to just a few cells which started from chemical reactions of different matter.

Scientists recently were able to go further by showing that these matters are repeated throughout the universe.

However none of this is relevant in this debate. If God exists (and he may) the writings in a book are not facts with proven continuity. There is a story about Moses of which I am very familiar, but it is just that a story, the witnesses are not present to testify so we have to take the step to your faith to believe. However belief is not a proof it is just an imprint into your consciousness which has nothing to do with a fact.

Once apon a time I possessed this faith but then I read alternative historical books that offerred alternative scenarios to the bible stories. These books may or may not be correct also but they did open my mind to looking into other possibilities. The Darwin theories led me to my feelings, and faith if you like, in nature today.

But to assert that there is a God who is beyond this life, though not impossible perhaps, I find highly unlikely on the evidence.

Faith on its own my friend just does not stand up and to teach it, especially to children before they are formally educated, is also wrong.

I rest my case on the fact that you, bullsvbears, do not seem to be able to comprehend actual reality. Faith and belief are matters ingrained within the brain, usually by repetition (ie. the rosary) till it is embedded within the subconscious, and in my view borders on psychosis.

white_crane · 18 October 2010

Boognish said:
Any evidence for anything you've said here? Anything verifiable?

bullsvsbears said:
You'll have to wait until your dead and you can verify it for yourself.
Nothing, not even if God appeared to you today will obviously change your mind.

LOL, I guess that's a 'No' then.

Ruby · 18 October 2010

bullsvsbears said:
That's exactly what you're doing here by making childish statements about God condoning genocide. I think I made it quite clear as to why this occurred at the time but you keep trying to manipulate what I say to justify your predisposed perceptions of God.

Oh dear! You are getting yourself tied up in knots! If you go back to your post #70, you will see that you stated then that god did not condone genocide. Which is it?

I posed a couple of questions - which you have not answered - and said nothing about my perceptions or beliefs. You don't know what they are.

bullsvsbears said:
Another example on how you play with words is denying your disparaging Jewish desert dweller undertones. Your true racist colors come out when you are put under the blow torch.

No - not the least bit racist. There was nothing disparaging in my remarks about a small tribe of people living in the desert 3,000 years ago.

bullsvsbears said:
If God doesn't exist then why do you waste your time refuting his existence.
It shouldn't matter to you what I think but it obviously does!!!

I haven't, and it doesn't. I don't mind what you think or believe. What I do mind - and hence my questions - is your claims that your beliefs are facts.

You clearly don't have any answers, so you are resorting to the cheap tactic of personal attack instead.

Ruby · 18 October 2010

explod said:
It is not being refuted and it is being made clear that we do not know if he exists or not.

You seem to think that he exists so it is up to you to prove that.

It is well proven that our form and species evolved from more primitive species right back to just a few cells which started from chemical reactions of different matter.

Scientists recently were able to go further by showing that these matters are repeated throughout the universe.

However none of this is relevant in this debate. If God exists (and he may) the writings in a book are not facts with proven continuity. There is a story about Moses of which I am very familiar, but it is just that a story, the witnesses are not present to testify so we have to take the step to your faith to believe. However belief is not a proof it is just an imprint into your consciousness which has nothing to do with a fact.

Once apon a time I possessed this faith but then I read alternative historical books that offerred alternative scenarios to the bible stories. These books may or may not be correct also but they did open my mind to looking into other possibilities. The Darwin theories led me to my feelings, and faith if you like, in nature today.

But to assert that there is a God who is beyond this life, though not impossible perhaps, I find highly unlikely on the evidence.

Faith on its own my friend just does not stand up and to teach it, especially to children before they are formally educated, is also wrong.

I rest my case on the fact that you, bullsvbears, do not seem to be able to comprehend actual reality. Faith and belief are matters ingrained within the brain, usually by repetition (ie. the rosary) till it is embedded within the subconscious, and in my view borders on psychosis.

Thank you Explod, your views concur very much with my own.

I cannot say for certain that there is no god. There is certainly no proof of one, but because there is still so much we don't know, my mind is open to the idea of a higher intelligence. However, I do not believe in a personal god who controls or intervenes in our everyday lives. That in my view is childish nonsense and raises more questions than it provides answers.

I grew up with strong religious beliefs but in adulthood began to question and eventually discard them. Ever since I began to read widely on the subject I have learned more about the bible, religion in general, and different religions in particular from my non-religious standpoint than I ever learned during my religious phase; and with a far more objective outlook.

explod · 18 October 2010

Ruby said:
Thank you Explod, your views concur very much with my own.

I cannot say for certain that there is no god. There is certainly no proof of one, but because there is still so much we don't know, my mind is open to the idea of a higher intelligence. However, I do not believe in a personal god who controls or intervenes in our everyday lives. That in my view is childish nonsense and raises more questions than it provides answers.

I grew up with strong religious beliefs but in adulthood began to question and eventually discard them. Ever since I began to read widely on the subject I have learned more about the bible, religion in general, and different religions in particular from my non-religious standpoint than I ever learned during my religious phase; and with a far more objective outlook.

Yes agree. The one great legacy of my early Christian learning was the background it provided for wider study. However we are but a few of the lucky ones and in my case by the skin of my teeth and a great deal of professional counselling required.

The damage done by imposing it on the young is a disgrace but, for example, with one in nine people in the US appealing to Jesus then we have a huge problem IMHO

Julia · 18 October 2010

bullsvsbears said:
If God doesn't exist then why do you waste your time refuting his existence.
It shouldn't matter to you what I think but it obviously does!!!

Oh, the irony! If you're so convinced God exists, why would you be feeling the need to prosletyze on, of all places, a stock forum?

misterS said:
although the consideration of "right" and "wrong" as real choices in developing a moral compass tends to be a good thing, most would agree.

Certainly, but there's no need for religion here. Human beings have evolved what is now an innate understanding of what's right and wrong imo, and do not depend on some religious instructions for guidance.

I recall my daughter when she was about 4 years old said to me she thought there was a God, because what would be the point otherwise?

I don't understand your reasoning here. Why does the notion of a God give point to our existence that would not otherwise exist?
You could extrapolate your point here to say that the existence of those human beings who are atheists or agnostics is 'pointless', and obviously that's quite unreasonable.

Philosophers have argued for ever about the point of human existence.
Might be a good topic for a separate thread.

Thanks for a thoughtful and interesting post, mister S. Wish we had more like it.

misterS · 19 October 2010

"Quote:
I don't understand your reasoning here. Why does the notion of a God give point to our existence that would not otherwise exist?

You could extrapolate your point here to say that the existence of those human beings who are atheists or agnostics is 'pointless', and obviously that's quite unreasonable."

I wouldn't think that was a sustainable extrapolation. The point is that it's not the notion of a God, it's the existence of a God that would give existential meaning to life - well, human life. The "notion" is just an idea.

If life is an entirely random or "natural" event, without any "intelligent purpose" then nothing has any meaning outside the relativistic meaning that living humans give life during their brief span and perhaps our observation of the brief lives of others.

In many respects that is an entirely awesome and meaningful thing in itself. But to me, it is simply how astounding and unlikely life is in objective terms that makes it necessary to prefer one of the metaphorical meanings, even before you consider how big the universe is and what we know of it (and earth for that matter) so far.

The earth is teeming with life, from viruses and bacteria in our guts, to specialised and invisible critters living on your eyelids, to the existence of butterflies bearing every letter of the alphabet, to creatures living 6 kilometers under water or in boiling water, and yet our infant exploration of the universe shows it generally quite hostile to life and containing at least one gigantic cloud of alcohol 300 billion miles across. Perhaps it is just as well that physics limits the speed of travel.

tech/a · 19 October 2010

Nice post explod.

Perhaps it is just as well that physics limits the speed of travel.

Yes quite possibly so.
How would the human race like to become the "Chicken" of the universe bred for food!
Not many think of that possibility.I say keep very quiet!

Ruby · 19 October 2010

Julia said:
Certainly, but there's no need for religion here. Human beings have evolved what is now an innate understanding of what's right and wrong imo, and do not depend on some religious instructions for guidance.

Julia has made an important point here (and I am sure she is not the first to make it). Human beings would have to have developed a moral code very early in their existence - long before any religions were thought of - otherwise they would not have survived.

Our cave-dwelling ancestors (BVB will no doubt say I am being racist again!!) lived in small goups, eking out an existence in an often hostile environment, while being at the constant mercy of the elements and predators. In order to survive they needed to learn to look after and protect one another and to be considerate of one another. From this they developed certain rules and customs which served to enhance their chances of survival and helped them to live in some sort of harmony.

Religious believers love to put it the other way around - claiming that religion gave us a moral code, and suggesting that without religion we would have none. Every shred of logic and commonsense tells us this is not so.

Having a well-developed moral and ethical code is not proof that god exists.

nulla nulla · 19 October 2010

explod said:
It is not being refuted and it is being made clear that we do not know if he exists or not.

You seem to think that he exists so it is up to you to prove that.

It is well proven that our form and species evolved from more primitive species right back to just a few cells which started from chemical reactions of different matter.

Scientists recently were able to go further by showing that these matters are repeated throughout the universe.

However none of this is relevant in this debate. If God exists (and he may) the writings in a book are not facts with proven continuity. There is a story about Moses of which I am very familiar, but it is just that a story, the witnesses are not present to testify so we have to take the step to your faith to believe. However belief is not a proof it is just an imprint into your consciousness which has nothing to do with a fact.

Once apon a time I possessed this faith but then I read alternative historical books that offerred alternative scenarios to the bible stories. These books may or may not be correct also but they did open my mind to looking into other possibilities. The Darwin theories led me to my feelings, and faith if you like, in nature today.

But to assert that there is a God who is beyond this life, though not impossible perhaps, I find highly unlikely on the evidence.

Faith on its own my friend just does not stand up and to teach it, especially to children before they are formally educated, is also wrong.

I rest my case on the fact that you, bullsvbears, do not seem to be able to comprehend actual reality. Faith and belief are matters ingrained within the brain, usually by repetition (ie. the rosary) till it is embedded within the subconscious, and in my view borders on psychosis.

Good post Explod, particularly the point... "Faith and belief are matters ingrained within the brain, usually by repetition till it is imbedded within the subconscious.."

Personally I find it odd that "God" is always portrayed as being male.

Ruby · 19 October 2010

tech/a said:
Nice post explod.

nulla nulla said:
Good post Explod.....

It sums up the essence of this thread very concisely.

pilots · 19 October 2010

nulla nulla said:
Good post Explod, particularly the point... "Faith and belief are matters ingrained within the brain, usually by repetition till it is imbedded within the subconscious.."

Personally I find it odd that "God" is always portrayed as being male.

NN, When I was working for the Americans to up set them all you had to say was, that what happens if we find out that god, is a she, and is black.

wayneL · 19 October 2010

pilots said:
NN, When I was working for the Americans to up set them all you had to say was, that what happens if we find out that god, is a she, and is black.

Well, it's just further proof that humans have anthropomorphized God.

If it exists, it is likely to transcend such boundaries as race and colour... and every other human trait.

bullsvsbears · 19 October 2010

white_crane said:
LOL, I guess that's a 'No' then.

No is how you interpret it.

Can you prove to me that man landed on the moon or that September 11 occurred???

Boognish · 19 October 2010

bullsvsbears said:
No is how you interpret it.

Can you prove to me that man landed on the moon or that September 11 occurred???

We can reasonably deduce that those events did happen thanks to the acres of evidence that exists on these topics.

nulla nulla · 19 October 2010

Boognish said:
We can reasonably deduce that those events did happen thanks to the acres of evidence that exists on these topics.

Well I believe 911 happened, the second plane was caught on film by the camera crews that came out after the first plane went in. Also the buildings collapsing was independently documented.
As for the moon landing......a lot of inconsistancies in that one. Saw it on black and white television, believed it at the time. Now not so certain.

bullsvsbears · 19 October 2010

Boognish said:
We can reasonably deduce that those events did happen thanks to the acres of evidence that exists on these topics.

Well according to this philosophy we can also reasonably deduce that the events of the bible were real and therefore God is real. I could present a million arguments or conspiracy theories to deny that man landed on the moon if I chose to be irrational and there's nothing you could say to prove anything. But this wouldn't reduce the likelyhood that this event occured.

Further to this, If I told you that an archiologist discovered fossilised stone arrow heads in an excavation dating back thousands of years would you then assume these arrow heads evolved from from the a stone??? Of course not! One can reasonably deduce that someone created these arrow heads.... Just because you haven't seen the creator doesn't mean he doesn' t exist.
The evidence of creation is all around you.

bullsvsbears · 19 October 2010

nulla nulla said:
Well I believe 911 happened, the second plane was caught on film by the camera crews that came out after the first plane went in. Also the buildings collapsing was independently documented.
As for the moon landing......a lot of inconsistancies in that one. Saw it on black and white television, believed it at the time. Now not so certain.

I know it happened but because I was't there to see it first hand I could chose to be irrational and deny this event occured. I would demand more evidence than footage alone.

DB008 · 19 October 2010

bullsvsbears said:
...The evidence of creation is all around you.

...Like the Big Bang Theory?

I'm sorry, once l started to look at facts with "science and creation", l gave up on God. We are born, we live a life and we die. Simple. I guess that's why people ask, "Do you believe in GOD?" (believe being the word to focus on here!)

bullsvsbears · 19 October 2010

nulla nulla said:
Good post Explod, particularly the point... "Faith and belief are matters ingrained within the brain, usually by repetition till it is imbedded within the subconscious.."

Personally I find it odd that "God" is always portrayed as being male.

So you are telling me that your faith should be taught to our children?
I was taught to believe in evolution through to my University years because this was a so called 'theory' that some lecturer believed in.

Does God Exist? [Arguments & Proofs]

explod

explod

white_crane

Jedi Master

Ruby

Ruby

explod

explod

Julia

In Memoriam

misterS

tech/a

No Ordinary Duck

Ruby

nulla nulla

Positive Expectancy

Ruby

pilots

wayneL

VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!

bullsvsbears

Boognish

Risin' up from the mist

nulla nulla

Positive Expectancy

bullsvsbears

bullsvsbears

DB008

bullsvsbears

Similar threads

Does God Exist? [Arguments & Proofs]

explod

Jedi Master

explod

In Memoriam

No Ordinary Duck

Positive Expectancy

VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!

Risin' up from the mist

Positive Expectancy

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency