Does God Exist? [Arguments & Proofs]

[Sean K]

How clever are we really when we regress to such arguments.

We should just go to the book for the truth on how it really all began I feel.

Genesis 1

The Beginning

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning””the first day.

6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning””the second day.

9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning””the third day.

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights””the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning””the fourth day.

20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning””the fifth day.

24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground””everything that has the breath of life in it””I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning””the sixth day.


Beats the hell out science, who can argue with that!

 

[explod]

Beats the hell out science, who can argue with that!

Ah ha, so we get to Saturday. Maybe God launched Fosters. He'd be rolling over in Heaven as they are not doing that well.

 

[nunthewiser]

We should just go to the book for the truth on how it really all began I feel.

Genesis 1

The Beginning


3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. )

I think you will find you are mistaken.

it was Bon Scott( RIP) in the song" let there be rock"

i am happy to fight any man that disagrees

 

[explod]

I think you will find you are mistaken.

it was Bon Scott( RIP) in the song" let there be rock"

i am happy to fight any man that disagrees

Don't want to fight you there Nun, but getting back to God, as a kid I was told by my Uncle that "Paddy and Mick made the world with a pick and shovel"

 

[nunthewiser]

as a kid I was told by my Uncle that "Paddy and Mick made the world with a pick and shovel"

wise fella that uncle of yours as my father actually knew a paddy and he said the same thing.

must be true but they were probably to pi$$ed to write it down in a book to make it credible.

 

[electronicmaster]

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness

Check that out.


"Let us make man in our image, in our likeness.

So what does this really tell you all? How Meany Other GODS are there?

He does not say:

"Let us make man in My image, in My likeness.

 

[Julia]

Ah ha, so we get to Saturday. Maybe God launched Fosters. He'd be rolling over in Heaven as they are not doing that well.

I think you will find you are mistaken.

it was Bon Scott( RIP) in the song" let there be rock"

i am happy to fight any man that disagrees

Excellent. Reckon you could start with bullsvsbears, Nun?
I'd be happy to start a collection to send him/her over to W.A. to facilitate such an event.

 

[explod]

Check that out.


"Let us make man in our image, in our likeness.

So what does this really tell you all? How Meany Other GODS are there?

He does not say:

"Let us make man in My image, in My likeness.

Good point but the mystery of the Holy Spirit as related in the teachings is that it God compises God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. , The second one got the job of coming down to earth to save mankind.

Mankind of course said "mind your own business" and hung him on the cross (symbolised by the crucifix).

Anyway he had some influence because it is that Spirit, of the three parts that make up the host (small round bread) that is offerred up, as the bread of life, in Holy Communion.

Jeeez, I'll be getting my bible out for this thread soon.

 

[electronicmaster]

Good point but the mystery of the Holy Spirit as related in the teachings is that it God compises God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. , The second one got the job of coming down to earth to save mankind.

Mankind of course said "mind your own business" and hung him on the cross (symbolised by the crucifix).

Anyway he had some influence because it is that Spirit, of the three parts that make up the host (small round bread) that is offerred up, as the bread of life, in Holy Communion.

Jeeez, I'll be getting my bible out for this thread soon.

Yes, ok, cool. Who was he talking too when he was saying all of this stuff?

Was he in counsel with others at that time?

 

[explod]

Yes, ok, cool. Who was he talking too when he was saying all of this stuff?

Was he in counsel with others at that time?

Good question, the answers I got as a boy were, "well that is the wonderful mystery" and true grace and blessings come from accepting God's word. It is only after attaining a position within the Kingdom of God by going to heaven itself after our death shall we truly understand such mystery.

My questioning such matters made me a problem child and probably why I lost interest in my teachers, left school and became a shearer. I got a bit excited when bullsvbears came along but he does not seem to want to answer either. They seem to want to keep it all a mystery. They do not want an old uncooth exshearer in Rome beautifying Mary, she looked pretty good in her day too, wasted as a Nun IMHO (not having a go at you there Nunn) but suppose she must have saved a lot to be a saint. Rome is certainly getting a lot.

You know I have not had a drink today yet either.

 

[Ruby]

I don't think you get it Ruby.... Like I said 'a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing'.
People had different customs those days just as people around the world have different customs these days. Not wrong but different to what you and I are used to. Slaves were part and parcel of the ancient world and Moses was in effect setting out the very foundations for law and order of the time.

I am perfectly well aware that customs were different in those days. You are not telling me anything new. These people were just illiterate desert dwellers. The fact still remains (and it is quite clear in the bible) that whoever wrote the bible condoned genocide, slavery, selling one's daughter, etc, and you are denying this fact. What I said has nothing to do with customs of the day.

Oh...... so it was Moses who was giving the law.... I thought it was god!!!!! Now that is more realistic....... a man making laws for mankind to follow.

...... there is NOTHING atheism can do to change this fact.

ps.... I love it how all these little atheists come out of the closet when they are challenged!!!!

Please allow me to enlighten you.......

1. Atheism isn't trying to change any facts. You haven't presented any.
2. You have not challenged me. You cannot even present a coherent argument.
3. You do not know whether I am an atheist or not, and it is immaterial anyway.
4. I am not in any closet. I have nothing to hide.

 

[explod]

wise fella that uncle of yours as my father actually knew a paddy and he said the same thing.

must be true but they were probably to pi$$ed to write it down in a book to make it credible.

Another excellent point there Nun, because my Uncle was Dad's favourite beer mate.

How the light shines on.

Had my first wine half an hour ago, cheers

 

[motorway]

Dobzhansky, T. 1973. Nothing in Biology Makes Sense
Except in the Light of Evolution.

Maybe It is Just Absolutely Nothing that makes sense..

Famous Essay

http://people.delphiforums.com/lordorman/Dobzhansky.pdf

Motorway

 

[wayneL]

I think you will find you are mistaken.

it was Bon Scott( RIP) in the song" let there be rock"

Just to emphasize this simple truth:

 

[bullsvsbears]

Ruby, Ruby, Ruby
As you are obviously aware, God was in direct communication with Moses.
And by the way what has someone's place of abode got to do with their intelligence??
Love how you judge people for living in a desert. Bet a city slicker like you couldn't survive 1 day in a desert yet these people not only survived, they thrived!!!! The Pyramids were not built with modern machinery yet they still remain as one of the seven wonders of the ancient world. These people were obviously extremely intelligent and anyone with half a brain should be able to figure that out.

You also assume that because God allowed genocide to occur then God doesn't exist. You obviously don't comprehend the bigger picture as to why this occurred.

A farmer cultivates his crop with the expectation that he will reap the rewards for his efforts at harvest time. If weeds threaten that crop, does the farmer just stand by and let the weeds take over? Definitely not!!

God chose the Jewish nation to be his vessel by which the truth of his word would be proclaimed for generations to come. God knew in his infinite wisdom that the Jewish people were the most capable nation of that time to help fulfil his plans and he was spot on because the same message is relevant to all that acknowledge his existence today. Many nations opposed Israel and implicitly God’s plan for mankind in those times. God gave these nations ample warning and opportunity to change their ways before he chose to terminate their existence. God gives and takes away as he sees fit in order to fulfil his plans and this doesn't diminish his existence as you seem to assume.

Gases, explosions and meteors crashing into the ground do not cut the mustard when it comes to explaining our existence. The question as to what happened after this is something science in all its wisdom will never come close to explaining. (Not in a million years) Even Ancient man from pyramid times would consider this to be the ultimate leap of faith!!

 

[Boognish]

Ruby, Ruby, Ruby
As you are obviously aware, God was in direct communication with Moses.
And by the way what has someone's place of abode got to do with their intelligence??


You also assume that because God allowed genocide to occur then God doesn't exist. You obviously don't comprehend the bigger picture as to why this occurred.

A farmer cultivates his crop with the expectation that he will reap the rewards for his efforts at harvest time. If weeds threaten that crop, does the farmer just stand by and let the weeds take over? Definitely not!!

God chose the Jewish nation to be his vessel by which the truth of his word would be proclaimed for generations to come. God knew in his infinite wisdom that the Jewish people were the most capable nation of that time to help fulfil his plans and he was spot on because the same message is relevant to all that acknowledge his existence today. Many nations opposed Israel and implicitly God’s plan for mankind in those times. God gave these nations ample warning and opportunity to change their ways before he chose to terminate their existence. God gives and takes away as he sees fit in order to fulfil his plans and this doesn't diminish his existence as you seem to assume.

Gases, explosions and meteors crashing into the ground do not cut the mustard when it comes to explaining our existence. The question as to what happened after this is something science in all its wisdom will never come close to explaining. (Not in a million years) Even Ancient man from pyramid times would consider this to be the ultimate leap of faith!!

Any evidence for anything you've said here? Anything verifiable?

 

[Ruby]

BVB, as I said before, you can't even present a coherent argument.

And by the way what has someone's place of abode got to do with their intelligence??

I don't know. I didn't mention intelligence.

intelligence??
The Pyramids were not built with modern machinery yet they still remain as one of the seven wonders of the ancient world.

Quite correct, but the pyramids were built by the Egyptians, not a tribe of nomadic dessert dwellers. Different people altogether. Get your history correct.

You also assume that because God allowed genocide to occur then God doesn't exist. You obviously don't comprehend the bigger picture as to why this occurred.

I made no such assumption. Read my post - #66 if you need to remind yourself.

Perhaps you would like to explain the bigger picture? In your explanation you might also like to answer the questions I asked - if you can.

God knew in his infinite wisdom that the Jewish people were the most capable nation of that time to help fulfil his plans and he was spot on because the same message is relevant to all that acknowledge his existence today.

If that same message is relevant today, then what is the "message" conveyed by condoning slavery, incest, polygamy and genocide? .....back to my original question!

The question as to what happened after this is something science in all its wisdom will never come close to explaining. (Not in a million years)

Hmm!!........ another rather large assumption. Even the most brilliant scientists on the planet would never go that far!!

You seem to be given to making sweeping generalisations and assumptions, with no supporting evidence, and claiming them as fact. Perhaps you should stick to what you know and stop using diversionary tactics.

 

[bullsvsbears]

Ruby,
"An intelligent person identifies tomato to be a fruit but it takes wisdom to know not to put it in fruit salad."
That's exactly what you're doing here by making childish statements about God condoning genocide. I think I made it quite clear as to why this occurred at the time but you keep trying to manipulate what I say to justify your predisposed perceptions of God.

Another example on how you play with words is denying your disparaging Jewish desert dweller undertones. Your true racist colors come out when you are put under the blow torch.

If God doesn't exist then why do you waste your time refuting his existence.
It shouldn't matter to you what I think but it obviously does!!!

 

[bullsvsbears]

Any evidence for anything you've said here? Anything verifiable?

You'll have to wait until your dead and you can verify it for yourself.
Nothing, not even if God appeared to you today will obviously change your mind.

 

[misterS]

I'm more interested in the linked question of what a God wants from his creation.

Creating such an astounding universe primarily for the purposes of generating adoration would seem a curious (and to me, strange and unworthy) motivation and not really satisfactory from the standpoint of satisfying human curiosity.

Of course, the Christian religions posit "free will" and this requires or provides a rationale why the existence of God must remain an article of faith and not proof. Only a reckless few could deny or act contrary to the express wishes of a God whose existence was incontrovertible and he'd tend to be a bit more overtly interventionist as well.

Indeed, if adoration was the primary goal, then clear proof of existence would generate a bit more of it you would imagine. But that would be a pretty cheap thrill wouldnt it? He would be a pretty complicated and intelligent entity, all things considered and omnipotence aside.

Therefore, if we say it is not adoration per se, or at a less hysterical level, full appreciation, then for what purpose has this God created us?

It may have been to validate his own existence. Perhaps, prior to "creation", as the only tree falling in the forest, he just wanted someone to hear him.

That seems a fair enough proposition - maybe even an immortal and always existing and omnipresent God might start to feel a bit lonely? Or maybe, having created time and light for something to while away the pre-time and pre-weather equivalent of a wet afternoon, one thing just led to another?

I find pondering what God wants out of creation a more interesting issue than trying to figure out how I might please that God by my personal behaviour, although the consideration of "right" and "wrong" as real choices in developing a moral compass tends to be a good thing, most would agree.

Humans have tended toward a compassionate and merciful style of God in the modern world anyway, which is just as well.

Is there a God? On balance, and mindful of cultural influences that predispose me to such an answer, I think there probably is. I recall my daughter when she was about 4 years old said to me she thought there was a God, because what would be the point otherwise? I thought that was both a fair call, and something which throughout history has been the principle motivation for humans to believe there is a creator. Of course, there are other social benefits of cohesion and a civil society why being "good" is good. On that subject, you never hear of people doing bad things "for the general bad" do you?

Of course, the rub for people suffering and witnessing the terrible suffering of others (all of us), is why a merciful God would subject them to it? Why are some children mistreated unto death? On the other side of the coin, why are there people who act in a way that is "evil" and yet suffer no adverse earthly consequence and, if they have no conscience, not even any mental qualms about their behaviour?

If there is a God, then it seems this would be either because there will be a terrible reckoning of some kind or because, despite advertising's assertion to the contrary, life is a rehearsal and there will be an eventual reconcilliation and everyone will become one, with the God.

Knowing the mind of God - now there is a thing. Stephen Hawking wrote a book referring to that, but I don't know if he coined the phrase. It struck me to wonder if the human mind is capable of such a condition. I suppose if we are made in his image, then we can and we are each a part of God bound to return. That would be quite nice and then we will know.