Does God Exist? [Arguments & Proofs]

Uugh!

The same old binary argument.

Options2010 said:

It's a shame people can't embrace reality, instead clinging on to comfortable delusion... such a shame.

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Religion is not a comfortable delusion at all, it is held in place via the use of fear... believe us, say your hail Marys , or burn in hell.

As to the nature of "reality": No matter what reality each of us believe as fact or "proven" (LOL), there are always inconvenient truths each must ignore to continue their own line of belief. (although some may be closer to reality than others )

I reckon the trick is to be happy with our own particular delusion and accept that other's delusions may be different.

tech/a said:

The bible is told through 12 disciples.

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Notwithstanding that I agree the bible is not inspired by God, categorical statements must be factual John.

Only a small portion of the New Testament was written by any of the 12 disciples, the New Testament being the smaller of the two that make up the Bible. I think those who have actually read it are more qualified to criticize. e.g. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ </pedantic>

Julia: Quite so, roland.
I'm also vaguely irritated at myself for being annoyed enough to respond.

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Glad you did, and great post Julia.

We are absolutely fed up with our fellows being fed fairy tales. The problems of the planet require absolute realism now.

So this type of dribble does touch the nerves of fair and clear thinkers.

Reading a good book at the moment titled 'The Evolution of God', by Robert Wright.

Recommended for those who want to understand how and why the fairy tales have developed into institutionalised dogma.

bullsvsbears said:

Sounds like a classic case of 'a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous'...
Yes the bible does mention atrocities/rape/wars.....but in no way does the author condone such behaviour.

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Oh really???? Try reading Exodus Chapter 21 in which 'god', having just given Moses the ten commandments, gives further instructions on how to deal with certain certain things which may arise when a man buys a slave (V. 2) and when he sells his daughter (v.7). No amount of 'creative interpretation' can alter the clear meaning of that. To read about god's approval of genocide, go to Chapter 23. The bible does more than "mention" such things; the old testament is full of it.

As previous posters have said, the bible is a collection of writings by many authors over a long period of time, and is a mixture of myth, history, poetry, fiction, politics - all written with the particular bias of the author at the time - with some verifiable factual content.

I'm with you Julia - annoyed with myself for jumping into yet another go-nowhere argument.

(My bolds)

kennas said:

Reading a good book at the moment titled 'The Evolution of God', by Robert Wright.

Recommended for those who want to understand how and why the fairy tales have developed into institutionalised dogma.

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Now that is interesting Kennas

I am reading a detailed biography on Karl Marx, by Francis Wheen 1999. Passage read last night at p.32

"...theology must yield to the superior wisdom of philosophy, and that scepticism will triumph over dogma." at the time this was part of his doctorial proposal, he was just 19.

At 19 years I was absolutely innocent to the real world, knew the bible very well and was still coming to terms with the fact that my parents financial circumstancs had been such that I had not been able go to college and become a priest. I was right into books on metaphysics too.

Our journeys to the light of real thruths are interesting indeed.

If God exist he/she is one sorry sick person, I have worked and lived in the poorest places on earth, I have seen kids starving to death, hundreds of them, don't try to tell me we have a God that is looking over them.

pilots said:

If God exist he/she is one sorry sick person... :

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I think you’ll find the ‘sorry sick’ are those in government and in
charge that allow these things to flourish in those countries.

And you’ll find there are a ton of religious and non-religious people trying
their damned hardest to help them

Just curious, I’d be interested to know where are those poorest places?

nunthewiser said:

um scroll back.

he did not start this thread.

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Oops. My apologies.
The rest of what I said stands, though

Ruby said:

Are you sure it is the most read book on the planet? Do you have stats to support that? I would doubt it. Relatively few people actually read the bible.

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I believe the IKEA catalogue is the most widely read book on the planet.

The IKEA Catalogue (US spelling: IKEA Catalog) is a popular mail-order catalogue published annually by the Swedish home furnishing retailer, IKEA. First published in Swedish in 1951, the catalogue is now published each summer in 55 different editions, in 27 languages for 35 countries, and is considered to be the main marketing tool of the retail giant, consuming 70% of the company's annual marketing budget.
The catalogue prints approximately 175 million copies worldwide annually, meaning that it has published more than 3 times as much as The Bible.

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(Wikipedia)

pilots said:

If God exist he/she is one sorry sick person, I have worked and lived in the poorest places on earth, I have seen kids starving to death, hundreds of them, don't try to tell me we have a God that is looking over them.

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Which makes you wonder why he would take the time out from his busy schedule to help Mary Mackillop perform a couple of "miracles."

explod said:

It has been well explained by clear thinkers of more recent scholarship that the dogma of religion stifles free choice, unencumbered education and free thinking.

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A bit like government. Funny that...

I don't think you get it Ruby.... Like I said 'a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing'.
People had different customs those days just as people around the world have different customs these days. Not wrong but different to what you and I are used to. Slaves were part and parcel of the ancient world and Moses was in effect setting out the very foundations for law and order of the time. These rules were designed to make things run smoothly in society and yes punishment was ‘God forbid’ something that happened. We have also set rules and regulations for our time and we have named it ‘the judicial system’ and as surprising at it may seem, the foundations for our laws’ have been adopted from Moses’ time and refined for our generation. Even now different countries have different judicial systems and laws that you and I may not agree with but it doesn't make our system better. And yes putting people to death for doing wrong was part of the judicial process in those days as it is in many countries still today.
You can't just slag off religion by coming up with pathetic little arguments that don't have any substance or in fact depth. God will go on existing long after you and I are gone and there is NOTHING atheism can do to change this fact. What happens next is something you will have to deal with unless science works out a fairytale potion that gives you eternal life. But alas this won’t happen because we are not as smart as we think.


ps.... I love it how all these little atheists come out of the closet when they are challenged!!!!

bullsvsbears said:

God will go on existing long after you and I are gone and there is NOTHING atheism can do to change this fact.

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A little definition clarification for your personal growth

fact–noun
1.something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
2.something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.
3.a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4.something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.

belief–noun
1.something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2.confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3.confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4.a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

wayneL said:

Uugh!

The same old binary argument.



Religion is not a comfortable delusion at all, it is held in place via the use of fear... believe us, say your hail Marys , or burn in hell.

As to the nature of "reality": No matter what reality each of us believe as fact or "proven" (LOL), there are always inconvenient truths each must ignore to continue their own line of belief. (although some may be closer to reality than others )

I reckon the trick is to be happy with our own particular delusion and accept that other's delusions may be different.

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I always enjoy your posts Wayne the delusion bit is good

bullsvsbears said:

.... I love it how all these little atheists come out of the closet when they are challenged!!!!

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Not challengd at all. I do not know if God exists or not and it is not bothersome to me.

You assert that he does so it is up to you to prove that point. Written words from the bible do not prove the point. You need physical facts which you fail to present.

My concern is the mental damage done to people by religious brainwashing from childhood which has the effect of turning them into people like yourself.

It's not up to me to prove anything ......it's up to you to open your eyes....
You call yourselves the enlightened ones and yet you chose to believe in some big bang theory. Is this supposed to disprove God existence or his creation?
I think not!..... Words like random and chance are used to explain our existence... So many gaps and such a huge leap of faith. How clever are we really when we regress to such arguments.

bullsvsbears said:

You call yourselves the enlightened ones and yet you chose to believe in some big bang theory. Is this supposed to disprove God existence or his creation?

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The identification of the big bang and other natural phenomena do not disprove God. It is not their aim and never was.

The theories do however, make the role of a creator quite simply unnecessary. Okham's Razor does the rest.

God plays his part in teaching us right from wrong.

As God is associated with Heaven, and the Devil is associated with hell, the first thing we need to prove is that Hell has frozen over.

Hell explained by a chemistry student.
A bonus question was asked.."Is Hell exothermic(gives off heat ) or endothermic(absorbs heat)

Most students replied by using Boyle's Law.
However one student wrote the following.

First we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, lets look at the different religions that exist in the world today.

Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to hell. Since there is more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell, because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added.

This gives two possibilities:
1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase "until all Hell breaks loose".

2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until "Hell freezes over".
So which is it?

If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, "It will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you", and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number two must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has frozen over. The corollary of this theory is that since Hell is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct....leaving only Heaven, thereby proving the existance of a divine being which explains why, last night , Teresa kept shouting 'Oh my God'.

Now if Hell is frozen over, where are we placed?

Well here, on Earth as living beings, and our Hell is watching the politicans stuffing up the country, Ricking Ponting trying to win cricket tests, Wayne Swan attempting to balance the budget, and Gillard trying to make sense.

What I do know is that when we leave we are surely entitled to go to a better place.

So THERE MUST BE A GOD.!!!

bullsvsbears said:

It's not up to me to prove anything ......it's up to you to open your eyes....

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You are the one asserting an existence of God so prove it ?

You call yourselves the enlightened ones and yet you chose to believe in some big bang theory.

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Do not call ourselves enlightened at all, just following what we believe to be common sense. And the Big Bang, I am not a scientist so do not really know but its explanation seems to make more sense that the bibles version.

Is this supposed to disprove God existence or his creation?
I think not!.....

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No trying to do either and I do not know, you are the one asserting such matter.

Words like random and chance are used to explain our existence... So many gaps and such a huge leap of faith. How clever are we really when we regress to such arguments

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Of course there a still a lot of gaps. That has nothing to do with the assertions of the rubbish that seems to eminate from the Bible, unless of course it has changed a lot since my studies of it in the 1960s

And on other posts, yes the principles of the Bible on right and wrong are good and such principles were in print and heeded well before the bible was written. Society does require lawful guidance and good example.

And the word faith, a word used for and to ensure the masses follow the dogma of the controlling entity.