Do you have solar panels?

[drsmith]

As a direct comparison you are probably right in your cost comparisons. But Smart Power is also meant to encourage you to change your usage pattern so that heavy usage is directed towards the lower tariff periods away from the high tariff periods. For me, that changes the equation in favour of smart power.

It's my intention to see how the comparison looks after a full year.

Early signs on the summer smart power schedule are encouraging as above, but there's the hot months and aircon use to play out.

I'm not one for attempting to change usage patterns where it becomes a personal inconvenience or counter to operating PC's/other electronic equipment in a suitably cool environment. Aircon use from mid/late afternoon on hot days is one example as is general evening use in winter.

 

[sptrawler]

You think so
At least with investment properties you could have a laugh at the horror stories.
With this solar stuff it won't become a drama untill the feed in tarrifs cut out.
Then smart meters that have been installed can really be exploited and everyone will be screaming, give me back the inductive disk meter.

There you go Todster, we said this could happen back in early November.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...he-cost-of-power/story-e6freuzi-1226227988163

 

[todster]

There you go Todster, we said this could happen back in early November.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...he-cost-of-power/story-e6freuzi-1226227988163

My meter is so smart they only read it once a year.
They have been estimating my usage and my bi monthly bill has been around $800!
They have recently read the meter and this bill is $35
Nice of them to keep my money safe for me.

 

[Julia]

There you go Todster, we said this could happen back in early November.

From your link, sp:

Senator Milne said: "For too long, governments, businesses and householders haven't tackled our hugely wasteful use of energy because there has been no clear and urgent driver to do so." She said a target for energy use reduction should be set at 3 per cent a year.

Energy Users Association executive director Roman Domanski said similar schemes in Australia and overseas had produced limited benefits. He said time-of-use pricing would be more pronounced in hotter areas of Sydney - the west.

"If the government introduces a scheme like that, it is going to increase bills," he said.

"We're now going to have a carbon price that is going to encourage people, supposedly, to lower emissions and also reduce the amount of energy people use so we wonder why you need one of these sorts of schemes to push electricity prices up even more."

A spokeswoman for parliamentary secretary for climate change Mark Dreyfus said a national energy savings initiative was aimed at "helping households and business save money on energy costs".

Bloody Christine Milne! It's just fine for her. She's just scored a 30% pay rise.
To charge ordinary families, the unemployed, people living alone DOUBLE rate between 4pm and 8pm is total extortion.

People have to use cooking appliances, have to heat/cool houses which have been closed up all day, have to bath children, wash dirty clothes etc etc.
These things are not discretionary.

Smart Meters, huh! How absolutely disgusting, and on top of the additional impost of the carbon tax.

 

[sptrawler]

If the panels are facing east you are making power in the morning when you don't need it. When the house is hot in the afternoon and you turn on the a/c the panels won't be producing. IMO

By the way he doesn't have much north facing roof.

This time of day pricing, is why I sugested installing panels on the west side( if you don't have room on the north aspect) the electricity cost for afternoon power will end up very high. IMO

 

[DB008]

Just had a quick look at my Dad's solar unit, here in Brisbane.
Output today is currently at 6.8kw hours, not bad considering it's rained a few times and overcast.

 

[Dowdy]

Right now, with the current technology and price, it'll be foolish to get solar panels now.

Given a few years, when solar becomes grid parity then it'll be worth it...

So many people willing to spend tens of thousands on solar without actually doing a bit of research into the technology. The panels out there now are second generation, but pretty soon in the future there will be 3rd gen solar coming out, which will compete with coal on efficiency and cost

There is a company right now, in Australia, which is making pretty good ground in 3rd gen technology - Dyesol which is also listed on the ASX. Currently on my stocks to watch list

 

[pixel]

There is a company right now, in Australia, which is making pretty good ground in 3rd gen technology - Dyesol which is also listed on the ASX. Currently on my stocks to watch list

DYE is already in my portfolio.
But by the time their technology hits main street (fingers crossed and hope it does) my 2nd generation solar panels will probably have paid for themselves. Admittedly, the payback is accelerated thanks to some generous subsidies, but it's the bottom line that counts for me.

 

[Julia]

Admittedly, the payback is accelerated thanks to some generous subsidies, but it's the bottom line that counts for me.

Good for you. However, those generous subsidies are a large part of what is driving up electricity bills for those who don't have the panels, including in particular people on low incomes who - regardless of any subsidy - would have had no hope of installing them.

As always, it's the poor who are always most further disadvantaged.

 

[pixel]

Good for you. However, those generous subsidies are a large part of what is driving up electricity bills for those who don't have the panels, including in particular people on low incomes who - regardless of any subsidy - would have had no hope of installing them.

As always, it's the poor who are always most further disadvantaged.

So, what do you suggest, Julia? Not install Solar? Or reject the subsidy? I don't believe that would benefit a single disadvantaged person.

Earlier this week, our Solar Installation reached a milestone of 5 MWh.
Apart from the tons of CO2 that has kept out of the air, I consider also that, by my early uptake (and paying a higher price per KW capacity) I have added to the technology's gaining momentum. Judging by recent advertisements, 1.5KW systems are now offered for less than $2,000 fully installed. At that price, it will become viable even without subsidies, which have already been phased out in WA. In other States probably too.

PS: The current A1 tariff, at which all private consumers are billed, is allegedly still subsidised to the tune of 30% off the true costs of generation, distribution, and grid maintenance. Western Power Corporation only pays us 7c per fed-in unit; the contracted 40c subsidy is separate and does not affect WPC's Accounts; so it can hardly be blamed for future rate rises.

 

[DB008]

Right now, with the current technology and price, it'll be foolish to get solar panels now.

Given a few years, when solar becomes grid parity then it'll be worth it...

So many people willing to spend tens of thousands on solar without actually doing a bit of research into the technology. The panels out there now are second generation, but pretty soon in the future there will be 3rd gen solar coming out, which will compete with coal on efficiency and cost

There is a company right now, in Australia, which is making pretty good ground in 3rd gen technology - Dyesol which is also listed on the ASX. Currently on my stocks to watch list

So, should l wait to buy a laptop or car because the next model is just around the corner? I'd be waiting forever with your logic mate.

Good feed-in tariff rates + a generous Gov rebate, my Dad has 'free' power now. Only has to pay the QLD Ambulance levy.

 

[Dowdy]

So, should l wait to buy a laptop or car because the next model is just around the corner? I'd be waiting forever with your logic mate.

Two questions you should ask....

Does the cost outweigh the benefit
Is it a want or a need?

 

[Smurf1976]

Two questions you should ask....

Does the cost outweigh the benefit
Is it a want or a need?

Figures for my own circumstances are as follows.

Location is Tasmania. Installation in my roof at 22 degree pitch facing 20 degrees West of true North.

Energy rate on general Light & Power tariff is 25.132c / kWh. Same rate applies to import and export, and is a constant rate 24/7/365. There is no difference in the rate for solar versus non-solar households. (Note: space heating, air-conditioning and hot water are separately metered at a lower rate and will not be affected in any way by the installation of solar).

For a first installation which qualifies for the rebates, the annual return to the householder is 22.5% p.a. based on installed cost of $2050 and production of 1840 kWh p.a. from a 1.5 kW system.

Based on forecast electricity prices, this return rises to 28.1% p.a. two years from now with ongoing increases after that. Note that the extent of forecast increases in Tasmania, 25%, are at the bottom end of the scale nationally - it's expected to be even worse in the other states.

Now, go and find me another investment which returns 22.5%, indexed to the price of electricity and with no tax payable.

From the perspective of the householder, solar is absolutely a good investment. It sure beats putting your money into property or a generic share fund. Obviously there are subsidies involved, but the entire economy is riddled with subsidies and I don't blame the average person for seeing an opportunity to save themselves some money by grabbing what's on offer.

As for why electricity prices are rising, it's a complex issue but I'll give you the number one cause straight up.

The National Electricity Market (NEM) and the "micro-economic reforms" of the 1990's have always been well understood by those with knowledge of the industry to lower the technical operating efficiency of existing power stations, increase the cost of transmission and distribution through loss of integration and ramp up costs as a result.

Ask the economists and politicians why they thought it was a good idea to focus on one part of the industry which only ever accounted for 2 - 20% of household retail prices anyway (depending on what state you are in - lowest in Vic and Tas, highest in WA, SA, NT) whilst blowing out the remaining 80 - 98% of costs as a direct result.

You'd have to speak to an economist or politician to answer that one - but it was known at least as far back as 1993 that lower efficiency would be the outcome and this was never kept secret (indeed the reverse is somewhat true).

The old state utilities had their faults, but they sure didn't employ an army of people sitting in offices trying to work out how to force the use of less efficient means of production so as to ramp up the price. This, I can assure you, is exactly what goes on these days...

 

[DB008]

Two questions you should ask....

Does the cost outweigh the benefit
Is it a want or a need?

1) Yes - 3kw system installed. No more power bills (for the foreseeable future).
2) Answer to Q1, answers Q2

 

[Smurf1976]

Right now, with the current technology and price, it'll be foolish to get solar panels now.

Given a few years, when solar becomes grid parity then it'll be worth it...

It comes down to a question of economic and/or environmental issues. Which is more important is a matter of personal opinion.

But one thing is certain, solar panels don't go "out of date" or anything like that. Whatever technology is around in 5 or 50 years time does not change the fact that 230 VAC at 50 Hz (that is, normal household mains power) does the same job no matter how it is produced.

The oldest power station in ongoing usage supplying the main grid in Australia (which covers Qld, NSW, ACT, Vic, Tas, SA) is 97 years old. It's from an era when there was no such thing as a computer and TV was science fiction at best. But the power it produces today is as useful as it was back in 1914 even though it can now be used for applications never imagined at the time it was built.

My computer works just the same regardless of whether it's running from the power station referred to above, a newer plant, solar panels or a diesel generator. Likewise every other appliance is the same.

The only way an existing solar installation will become obsolete is if either (1) there is no space left on the roof to install more panels and you want to replace them with some new technology which produces more power per square metre or (2) we stop using electricity as we know it today. For the average household, point 1 isn't really an issue due to the roof area available and point 2 is something that, if it happens, nobody could reasonably plan for today.

 

[sptrawler]

Two questions you should ask....

Does the cost outweigh the benefit
Is it a want or a need?

Well I have had my 1.5kw system on for 1year, it has made $818. So therefore the payback time at current tarrifs, given similar consumption and weather, will be 4 years.
That will leave 6 years of income, if all goes well, before the feed in tarrif stops. Then you are saving on the cost by offsetting your consumption. Who knows what the price per kw will be then?

 

[Dowdy]

Well I have had my 1.5kw system on for 1year, it has made $818. So therefore the payback time at current tarrifs, given similar consumption and weather, will be 4 years.
That will leave 6 years of income, if all goes well, before the feed in tarrif stops. Then you are saving on the cost by offsetting your consumption. Who knows what the price per kw will be then?

By the time that happens, hopefully 3rd gen panel will be cheap and then i'll be getting solar

 

[DocK]

I have just paid my electricity bill of $48 - it used to be ave $800 prior to installation of 16 panels on a 4kw system. It should pay for itself inside 6 years and is currently the equivalent of a 20 - 25% return on capital. I'd be delighted to be assured of that year on year in the sharemarket, so for me definitely worthwhile. Panels may indeed get better and cheaper, but I'm getting min 20% on my money now. What's that saying about a bird in the hand.....

 

[Wysiwyg]

Of course more efficient cell exchanges are the goal and this article suggests one method to increase solar panel efficiency.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/12/111215141617.htm

 

[Smurf1976]

Panels may indeed get better and cheaper, but I'm getting min 20% on my money now. What's that saying about a bird in the hand.....

Better - not going to make any practical difference. Electricity is electricity.

Cheaper - maybe but we're down around $1 per watt (bulk price) for panels now anyway such that labour, cable, mounting rails, inverter etc are becoming a larger % of the total installed cost.