Do you have solar panels?

[pixel]

Ah, now it makes sense.

Seems that he is on gross metering whereas I was assuming the more common net metering arrangement.

If it's gross then yes, you want to maximise production and that means facing the panels north. But for anyone on net metering with a FIT rate lower than the rate paid for power from the grid, the E - W arrangement will typically be the best option financially.

That's the way it works in WA:
During the day, when we use less than our panels produce, the excess is fed into the grid and we get a credit of 8-and-a-bit cents plus FIT per KWh excess. During times of low or no sunlight, we buy off the grid at currently 23-and-a-bit cents per KWh.
In the past, it has just about balanced out.

PS: Yes, we had years ago replaced all our light bulbs; TV and computer monitors are LED; we also have Solar hot water; our kitchen stove runs on power with a gas BBQ for backup. Given the price of copper piping and the distance a new gas line would have to be run, it just wasn't worth the effort. Apart from that, the old locked-in domestic gas price contracts will also see massive increases, likely removing most of the price advantage that Alinta is currently still claiming in its ad campaigns. And besides: What's a Gov'mint guarantee worth anyway

 

[Smurf1976]

Wouldn't it still be best to face them E - W as the solar would still reduce the 28c demand at peak periods.
As opposed to exporting more at 8c over the mid day period?

Not if the metering is set up to record all solar generation as "export" at 8c and all consumption as "import" (known as "gross metering" as distinct from the more common "net metering") as is the case with the system sydboy007 is referring to. In that case, you just want to maximise output but it will only be worth 8c no matter what your household consumption is at the time.

The E - W arrangement I have referred to is suited to households on net metering, where solar generation is used within the house first with only the surplus exported. In that case, a flat output profile during the day will in most cases result in more of it being used to power your own appliances and less being exported thus increasing the financial benefit in a situation where imports cost more than you receive for exports.

Someone mentioned buying shares in a solar farm. Well I suppose you could do just that. But then you could just buy shares in any other form of power generation as well, and it will generally be cheaper than solar. Oh wait..... It wasn't that long ago that everybody was a default part owner of power stations, transmission lines and so on and we did indeed get affordable electricity from that. Then someone came up with the idea of privatisation. Not that it's overly private as such, unless you count ownership by the governments of Singapore and China as being in some way "private".

 

[sptrawler]

Not if the metering is set up to record all solar generation as "export" at 8c and all consumption as "import" (known as "gross metering" as distinct from the more common "net metering") as is the case with the system sydboy007 is referring to. In that case, you just want to maximise output but it will only be worth 8c no matter what your household consumption is at the time.

The E - W arrangement I have referred to is suited to households on net metering, where solar generation is used within the house first with only the surplus exported. In that case, a flat output profile during the day will in most cases result in more of it being used to power your own appliances and less being exported thus increasing the financial benefit in a situation where imports cost more than you receive for exports.

Someone mentioned buying shares in a solar farm. Well I suppose you could do just that. But then you could just buy shares in any other form of power generation as well, and it will generally be cheaper than solar. Oh wait..... It wasn't that long ago that everybody was a default part owner of power stations, transmission lines and so on and we did indeed get affordable electricity from that. Then someone came up with the idea of privatisation. Not that it's overly private as such, unless you count ownership by the governments of Singapore and China as being in some way "private".

That gross metering sounds somewhat unfair. The system is buying your production at 8c and selling theirs to you at 28c.
From your explanation, W.A has net metering, as Pixel described.
Thanks for the explanation Smurph.

 

[sydboy007]

That gross metering sounds somewhat unfair. The system is buying your production at 8c and selling theirs to you at 28c.
From your explanation, W.A has net metering, as Pixel described.
Thanks for the explanation Smurph.

Very much so, and we can thank the private companies for bullying the Govt into this.

At least the power companies should be paying around the wholesale price for electricity, less transmission costs etc.

At least my parents are pretty frugal energy consumers so they still get a reasonable benefit from the solar, but definitely not as big a benefit as my dad originally thought. Wish I'd been able to read his contract before he signed up. I'd have tried to find a net metering deal, though being in a small town I'm not sure if you can get that kind of deal.

Now all i need is for my neighbour's tree to suddenly curl up it's roots and I could get some solar. Am surprised that there's hardly any in my area. I think being forced onto ToU charging turns a lot of people off.

 

[Trevor_S]

Yep.. Stand alone, off the grid.. Same for sewage, water, lots of food as well.

 

[sptrawler]

What do you use for backup Trev? Wind, diesel, petrol?

 

[sydboy007]

What do you use for backup Trev? Wind, diesel, petrol?

I got an image of a giant hamster wheel providing backup power...and entertainment

 

[drsmith]

Is this the future for rooftop solar ?

Spain plans to make consumers pay for the clean electricity they generate and use themselves, a move unheard of in any other market.

A new draft bill on power consumption includes a fee for electricity that’s generated by solar panels or other renewable sources and used on-site, the text shows. The draft is being reviewed by industry regulator CNE.

The bill extends the payback time for domestic solar systems to almost 35 years from about 12 years, according to UNEF. It will also extend the period for small and medium-sized plants to about 14 years.

Domestic installations with less than 10 kilowatts will have to pay 27 percent more than they would without the levy, the lobby estimates. The fee, which applies to all plants of 100 kilowatts or less, varies according to project size and may be modified in future, according to the draft legislation.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...ar-with-plan-to-penalize-power-producers.html

 

[sptrawler]

Is this the future for rooftop solar ?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...ar-with-plan-to-penalize-power-producers.html

Well doc, if you think about it, if everyone in Australia was self sufficient on electricity. How much would the generators have to charge business to make money.lol
How much revenue would the government lose.
Maybe the greens should read the article.

 

[lusk]

Is this the future for rooftop solar ?





http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...ar-with-plan-to-penalize-power-producers.html

Taxing the sun :screwy:

 

[Craton]

Taxing the sun :screwy:

Creating money from thin air this, literally and that's our wonderful capitalist world at work. Hmm, what can we monetize next?

I'm really wishing this doesn't get any traction and can't see it happening but if Wall Street has got a sniff of it, I suspect it's already too late...:bad:

Tax on oxygen anyone?

 

[pixel]

Tax on oxygen anyone?

Shhhh! Don't let our politicians hear about that idea! They'll tax Oxygen twice as hard as Carbon.
After all, CO2 means there's two parts Oxygen to every one part Carbon in Carbon Dioxide!

 

[pixel]

I was listing to it all day, people here in WA are not happy

In News just out, Premier Barnett has listened, it appears:

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/wa/18456332/liberal-rebellion-on-solar-heats-up/

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...solar-rebate-cut/story-fnii5thm-1226695423494

Thanks to the petition by Solar Citizens http://www.solarcitizens.org.au/ - I signed it too.

 

[Craton]

@pixel, LOL. Yeah, double PLUS double again (coz there's two O's) PLUS, the tax on that naughty carbon.

Just heard on the ABC here too. WA govt has abandoned lowering the tariff. Had to laugh when a bloke being interviewed said that, he'll won't forget B1 and B2 at the next election.

Still, just like NSW a couple of years ago, nice to see the power of the people at work. Pun intended.

 

[sydboy007]

@pixel, LOL. Yeah, double PLUS double again (coz there's two O's) PLUS, the tax on that naughty carbon.

Just heard on the ABC here too. WA govt has abandoned lowering the tariff. Had to laugh when a bloke being interviewed said that, he'll won't forget B1 and B2 at the next election.

Still, just like NSW a couple of years ago, nice to see the power of the people at work. Pun intended.

Just wait to see the same power expressed when the Federal Govt decides it has to cut spending to get the budget back into balance.

 

[drsmith]

In News just out, Premier Barnett has listened, it appears:

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/wa/18456332/liberal-rebellion-on-solar-heats-up/

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...solar-rebate-cut/story-fnii5thm-1226695423494

Thanks to the petition by Solar Citizens http://www.solarcitizens.org.au/ - I signed it too.

I suspect the heat from is own party and perhaps federal Liberal was too much to take. I noticed Senator Eric Abetz publically weighed into the issue this morning.

Emperor Barnett and his chair sniffing Troy boy have a lot of egg on their faces over this. Hopefully it will be an enduring lesson for them on how not to govern.

 

[drsmith]

In relation to that letter from Synergy, someone didn't do their homework properly.

The West Australian believes the legal advice, from the State Solicitor's Office, was based on clauses in the subsidy contracts.

But it did not take into consideration a letter sent in May 2011 by Synergy chief operation officer Greg Roberts to customers entitled to the 40 cent payment that they would receive it "for the full term of your 10-year contract".

Energy Minister Mike Nahan's office was not aware of the existence of the letter until it surfaced in media reports on Friday.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/18471034/barnett-buckles-under-solar-heat/

The linked document in that article also contains some interesting information.

1) The state EERC approved the decision to reduce the FIT rate on June 24, so it was obviously considered before then.

2) It was approved by Cabinet on July 8.

Perhaps in the end, that letter from Synergy played a significant role in the government's reversal yesterday.

 

[pixel]

I suspect the heat from is own party and perhaps federal Liberal was too much to take. I noticed Senator Eric Abetz publically weighed into the issue this morning.

Emperor Barnett and his chair sniffing Troy boy have a lot of egg on their faces over this. Hopefully it will be an enduring lesson for them on how not to govern.

Love Alston's take on the whole affair:

 

[drsmith]

Love Alston's take on the whole affair:

I'm trying to work out who it is that's disappearing over the fence.

Could it be Geoff Roberts, the Chief Operating Officer of Synergy who in 2011 wrote that letter ?

The only things that are missing are Don Randall with the hammer and Ken Wyatt with the nails. Canning and Hasluck are the two most marginal federal seats in Western Australia and each has 13000 and 9700 homes with solar panels respectively.

 

[Smurf1976]

http://www.news.com.au/money/cost-o...t-the-carbon-tax/story-fnagkbpv-1226696132724

Well I see that 789 billion Australians are still using Green power although the numbers are going down. Even SA has just under 7.8 billion households, or more than the entire human population of the world, using it. They're not so keen in WA however, with only 56 million customers using it in the West.

Gotta love the quality of News Ltd journalism..... Maybe they should by a calculator to help get things right - a solar powered one of course.