Daniel Kertcher/Trading Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

[IFocus]

Re: Response to “Matteo” post on Aussie Stock Forums

IF

I receive some spam from a US option guy who is flogging a monthly advisory service. It is fairly reasonably priced, but make the claim that he has made 88% in his own account in the 2010 calendar year.

Proof? He has put out a video showing his actual TOS account for the period, with some steps made to show he is not scamming it.

I can respect this. We all can.

It would be a pretty simple matter for DK to do something along the same lines. In doing so, he could pretty much blow the doubters out of the water.

The question then becomes - why doesn't he?

There are few examples of so called educator / traders who make quite large claims of successful trading methods or systems publicly standing up to any serious scrutiny.

Personally I can make claims of having a 90 % win rate with staggering returns if I cherry pick time periods / my results.

I think anyone selling should be made to publish audited results to prove their claims as the claims are often attached to the amount charged for the courses which is enviably excessive by any measure.

A trader I know personally who has made staggering returns for some time started to run courses but stopped as it interfered with her trading which was where she made her real returns.

I have yet to meet anyone who became a successful long term trader using any market instrument / method that came out of a trading course, none, zilsh, nada.........

Enough said.

 

[skyQuake]

Re: Response to “Matteo” post on Aussie Stock Forums

Sadly, too many punters see only this:

..Personally I can make claims of having a 90 % win rate with staggering returns...

Then its..

 

[wayneL]

Re: Response to “Matteo” post on Aussie Stock Forums

There are few examples of so called educator / traders who make quite large claims of successful trading methods or systems publicly standing up to any serious scrutiny.

Personally I can make claims of having a 90 % win rate with staggering returns if I cherry pick time periods / my results.

I think anyone selling should be made to publish audited results to prove their claims as the claims are often attached to the amount charged for the courses which is enviably excessive by any measure.

A trader I know personally who has made staggering returns for some time started to run courses but stopped as it interfered with her trading which was where she made her real returns.

I have yet to meet anyone who became a successful long term trader using any market instrument / method that came out of a trading course, none, zilsh, nada.........

Enough said.

With options it's not that difficult to get a 90% win rate, just write WTFOTM options at statistically favourable points.

It's the size of the losses that is the rub. High probability trades unfortunately have low returns with commensurately higher risk to return.

eg you can win $1 nine times, but if you lose $9 on the tenth you only break even. Over $9 and obviously you're behind.

People like Kertcher shout out "stop loss". Sure you can stop those huge losses, but it must be remembered that your win rate then reduces ergo greater quantities of losses

There is no inherent edge whatsoever in any of these strategies in and of themselves, stop loss or no stop loss that's how options are actually priced. The edge must come from somewhere else.

This comes from some sort of quantitive, fundamental or technical analysis which delivers positive expectancy.

I agree that precise claims require precise proof, though policing it in a borderless Internet could be difficult.

 

[detoxangel]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

I agree with Matteo's comments fully. I have recently attended Daniel's Workshop at the Gold Coast and I found the $3,990 to be extremely expensive! The concept I don't get is that Daniel is trying to help others to succeed in wealth creation which is all very nice, but how about the people who don't have much money to start with and wish to earn an income. You first have to pay your way to get to the course and in my case this was flying from Adelaide to the Gold Coast plus accommodation. Once you are there you realise that you need at least $20,000 to make a start at earning any income.

The workshop provides information and tools on how to trade, but if you are completely new to the concept of trading it is going to take a long time once you get home to become familiar with what was explained at the workshop.

If I were to be genuine about helping others I would make the course more affordable to give people the opportunity to learn the concept and then have some money to work with. I found day two to be promoting further courses at a cost of $20,000.00 to be out of this world! It felt like in this course I can only cover so much, but if you want to make big dollars you will have to attend my future courses which will cost $20,000. This price range is totally out of my league which will mean that I will have to take a lot longer to get where I want to go.

On the positive side, I have come home and sold the shares that I have been sitting on for the past 15years and I will now let them work for me! I am now commited to learning more about trading but I will find other avenues to learn from where it won't cost me money to learn

This was an expensive lesson I learnt

 

[Sir Gordon Gecko]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Matteo
Sorry to be so longwinded, but hopefully this may help someone make an informed decision before deciding to attend the course. Cheers.[/QUOTE]

Nice post Matteo, i just went to the FREE W/E seminar, thanks for keeping these guys honest & putting some balance out there, it's alwasy the stuff they don't tell you about thet nails you, he is a likable guy on stage, which makes his job easier esp with a carrot that size, anyway for what it's worth even i after 5 yrs of trading options, I couldn't keep up with the strategy, as the PP slides were changing faster than an option board so i guess all the non experienced trading people (98% of them) would have heard was 5-8% P/M actually 22% was the one that grabed my attention the most, i left early and considered it while driving home then jumped on line,

You saved me $4K thats 2.5% ROI where do i send the cheque?

thanx all to all contributors
keen to have a chat with anyone willing to share the WTFOTM strategy
i asume seeling at logical highs,however i don't think i fully understand the greeks even though i know what they do & how they affect the option the picture is still out of focus for me so any help is appreciated

ang

 

[Matteo]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Firstly, thankyou to those who appreciated my post. If I've saved a few people from going down the wrong path then it was worthwhile. As I said though it could still be a viable strategy for some people, but I think a lot of people would feel as though it is not what they thought it would be.

I have not reposted since due to personal issues, and I have not traded the strategy both due to those issues and the fact that I have been anticipating a significant correction in the market - one that could be the beginning of a serious bear market. It appears though that Daniel didn't see it coming, and I get the feeling that right now a lot of his graduates may well be in a world of pain. I am no longer a subscriber, so don't know exactly what is happening with the current trades, but he has been putting out videos to try to calm everyone down and reassuring us all that this is just a blip and that the market will recover so not to panic. He may be right, but I'm guessing it's a bit late for most people not to start panicking. From what I can gather from the videos it appears he is recommending (sorry, I shouldn't say recommending because Daniel doesn't give advice...) suggesting that he is lowering his stop losses and holding onto his naked puts on the basis that the market will recover (which it did last night, but will it continue?). Sounds ok, but I reckon there's quite a few people out there having some sleepless nights at the moment.

As for Daniels response, I will say this:

1. I do not say the strategy requires a minimum 8 option contracts. I say that this is the number used by Daniel to calculate the projected returns. You can use less than 8 but if you do you will not get the returns stated. And from my experience if you only want to buy 1 or 2 contracts then many of the suggested trades simply won't be profitable, or not profitable enough to justify the time and the risk. And no, $15 is not a lot of money, but if the return is only say $50, then $30 transaction costs is a hefty slice of your potential profits. Again, in order to generate decent returns you need a large bank.

2. The above issue can be negated somewhat with increased volatility. I'm sure some of the potential returns next month will be very good, and you will make some decent returns given the huge volatility right now. But how many people are likely to jump back in after the stress and panic of the past week? Also, Wayne is correct in his assumption that the 5% average return is actually 2% given that it is recommended that you only use 40% of your bank. Not quite so attractive.

3. Again, you can trade with less than a $20k bank, but expect very small returns and many of the proposed trades to not be profitable. In times like this that might change somewhat, but do you have the balls to take the risk for a relatively small return in a market like this one?

4. Daniel makes the point that in times of high volatility the risk is greater, and the returns greater, so the use of guaranteed stops is increased. That's a good point. However, volatility can often come out of the blue, like it has this month (at least to those not expecting it), and without guaranteed stops there will be a lot of people praying for mercy to the trading gods. The bottom line is that most people do the course on the misunderstanding that all the returns are pretty much guaranteed and this is simply not true. Most of the time it is just not viable to use a guaranteed stop as it eliminates your returns. And even with a guaranteed stop you are still going to take some decent losses at times like these if most or all of your trades hit your stops.

5. No, you don't have to purchase Market Analyst, but I'm not sure how you would manage without it. I'm not sure what there is now on the website, but you need to be able to see the chart, and you need to be able to calculate the returns in real time as the prices are constantly moving and can quickly change the potential return you get. When I was doing it the only way you could do this was by using Market Analyst.

Anyway, that's just my 10 cents worth. I'd love to hear from anyone using the strategy how they have fared this month and whether they will return to the market.

Happy trading everyone!

 

[toughlessons]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

I have used the covered Call CFD strategy for 5 months up till now (I paid quite a bit less than quoted here and it was 3 days).
Having not dabbled in more than one ordinary share trade in my life before this (Yes I can see you all hitting your heads against walls, but this is the reality of current western world greed and ignorance combined that drove me to gamble this way)

I found this education to be highly informative and appreciated that he taught correct terms not crap like 'rental' I have seen for simmilar strategies. At no stage did Daniel say anything about it being fool proof or without risk, he mentioned risk many times, but just not in specifics often (such as showing a bad trade example). He is always careful to not say he is suggesting trades to place but only that this is what they are trading you may copy if you decide it matches your risk profile etc.

My assessment is simmillar to Matteo in that to make it work in some months (in which only high priced trades looked good but with low premiums) a bank of 30-50k would have been good but over 60k would be needed to achieve lowest possible brokerage while attaining high diversity, this lack of diversity meant on my 6K capital only 2/4 months profitted (but if I had 6 trades rather than the 2 I could afford the loss would have been absorbed by other trades) other months 20k would work to get at least a 3% expected return on 20k - which is the value sold to me in the intro night (I still made something like 4% the first month on the 6k)


Let me add to Matteo's comments.

....Also, Wayne is correct in his assumption that the 5% average return is actually 2% given that it is recommended that you only use 40% of your bank. Not quite so attractive.

I disagree, this is not correct the percentage returns are calculated on the cost of CFD margin + margin for the call - brokerage - interest, so even though you use 40% of the capital for the CFD's, in reality an additional 40% is used for the margin for the open position on the call (same cost as the underlying CFD's margin). so your outlayed margin is really closer to 80% if you follow the strategy, and the percentages take this into account. (the returns on just the cfd margin are basically double) because of so much capital being utilised I almost got a margin call when 2 trades appreciated over 20% each in a month, because the remaining capital was insufficiant to cover that, so with CFD's utilising 100% is suicide. (This month some trades will return over 15% if not stopped out due to VIX, but with markets like this one bad trade wipes all profits)

3. Again, you can trade with less than a $20k bank, but expect very small returns and many of the proposed trades to not be profitable. In times like this that might change somewhat, but do you have the balls to take the risk for a relatively small return in a market like this one?

As you state, this is all volitility related, some months 100 shares are enough to make 2-5% though 800 shares would be 8% (no guaranteed stop's)

....and without guaranteed stops there will be a lot of people praying for mercy to the trading gods. The bottom line is that most people do the course on the misunderstanding that all the returns are pretty much guaranteed and this is simply not true. Most of the time it is just not viable to use a guaranteed stop as it eliminates your returns. And even with a guaranteed stop you are still going to take some decent losses at times like these if most or all of your trades hit your stops.

Guaranteed stops can only be put 10% below and at time of opening the CFD.... so often you are not more than 10% ITM and still getting enough return that you want spend a LOT on the guarantee (0.3% cost for guaranteed stop is on the shares not the margin which means 3% of margin used)
because we write deep in the money there is already significant downside protection (usually 8% or more away from strike) so Daniel's team rarely use them (in my 5 months)

5. No, you don't have to purchase Market Analyst,...

No, but without it I'd have made very expensive mistakes... The new online tool is more that sufficient though, it is very easy and quick (no visuals/graphs though)

Anyway, that's just my 10 cents worth. I'd love to hear from anyone using the strategy how they have fared this month and whether they will return to the market.
Happy trading everyone!

Okay this is the stuff you really want to hear
over 4 months I'd made about 2% (as stated this would be much higher had I been able to enter all their trade ideas each month) this August 1 month contract period......

I basically have lost 60% of my capital, because ALL trades hit stops/break even point and had to be closed buying back options in super volatile environment it is now). and if I had guaranteed stop? I would have only lost more! due to cost

WHY?
The CFD is not where the most loss is (I think only 1 trade gapped below strike or stop for me), it is in the fact that to close out I have to buy back the Call I wrote, this is Super expensive due to volatility being so high compared to when I wrote the calls. In my experience when the price is at the strike the call is still worth 50% what I earned selling it even though it has 0 intrinsic value. SO typically to close a trade gone BAD it is in the range of 10-60% loss on the margin incurred (for the CFD+CALL not entire capital)

This was NOT clearly explained in course, typically closing trades before expirary has cost me enough to wipe the profit of 3 successful trades, which is bad when I only could afford to enter 2 or 3 total.....

Other points
- IG Markets Cash Settle at month end, which means you never get exercised, but instead pay the difference. I find this very annoying and too hard to track profit/loss, but it does allow to continue with a trade for the next month without incurring additional brokerage.

- IG markets do not have all available options ready-to go on their platform (Apparently they will soon, but it has been 5 months), this means you are kinda tied to only trading when Daniel's team does or to send through requests a day or two before you want to trade, or do it by phone which is more expensive and has larger minimums - THIS means you are stuck, and cant make your own choices very easily, or go into a trade a week later etc.

In summary, this strategy CAN work. BUT not when markets drop over 10% only days into the contract period... this month was not typical... but if the market returned to stability (IE not dropping more that about 8% a month), I cant recover the loss in less than a year, maybe I'll have to seek honest 2nd income stream...

I learned a LOT from this experience and understand markets a hundred times better now..... There is no silver bullet! it is not a nice way to learn but hell it was a very real way to learn
I have no gripe with Daniel. I think Daniel is a good teacher, and anyone to go into this sort of venture to expect guarantee's is deluded... but to expect beginners to start with CFD covered calls! wow crazy now I see the true risk profile.

I want to know how professional Traders/investors learn their skills, what are the (non hotel room) training facilities?? maybe that's what those like me need to know...

my (very long)10c

 

[toughlessons]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Geez it hardly makes sense though. I'll try again:

The $64,000,000 question then, is are you happy selling a portfolio of OTM short puts, because synthetically that is exactly what you have.

Sorry for killing the thread.

from my experience actually using the strategy the statement should say "...selling a portfolio of ITM short puts" OTM short puts give little/no downside protection so it is not the same as the covered call strategy being discussed, most positions in the strategy provide 8% or more downside protection before reaching the strike. ( new contracts for sept - one is 25% with over 12.5% expected returns on margin, if it doesn't drop 25% in the month - thanks to high VIX)

The noted issue being that hiting the strike early (or at all) in the contract month means it cannot be closed (buy back the option) without large losses (particularly high when volatility has risen)
I assume this is the same issue with ITM Naked puts too (which as pointed out by a few appears to have the exact same risk profile, or even less due to not having gapping on the underlying stock anymore), and as discussed the brokerage is much less.

Or I guess I could short the underlying just before it hits the strike, but again that's speculating it won't just bounce...

 

[wayneL]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

from my experience actually using the strategy the statement should say "...selling a portfolio of ITM short puts" OTM short puts give little/no downside protection so it is not the same as the covered call strategy being discussed, most positions in the strategy provide 8% or more downside protection before reaching the strike.

No.

Presuming you are selling ITM calls with your pseudo covered call strategy, short puts of the same strike (i.e. synthetically equivalent) are OTM.

 

[toughlessons]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

No.

Presuming you are selling ITM calls with your pseudo covered call strategy, short puts of the same strike (i.e. synthetically equivalent) are OTM.

Ah yes you are correct, I thought you meant ATM and these are Puts not Calls so OTM when choosing lower strike price, yes. 3 days training ain't gonna make me an expert in terminology...

 

[wayneL]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Ah yes you are correct, I thought you meant ATM and these are Puts not Calls so OTM when choosing lower strike price, yes. 3 days training ain't gonna make me an expert in terminology...

Correct, and it ain't going to make anyone proficient in options trading either.

You have highlighted to great folly of these three day courses.

 

[NWAM]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Alright so lots of people have expressed their negative thoughts about this course. What about something positive?

From the people that have now made it out of the rat race via trading, what are some books or strategies that have helped you get out of your day job?
And if you were that sure would you consider mentoring a novice?

You'll get a warm fuzzy feeling on the inside, knowing you've helped someone:

NWAM

 

[wayneL]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Alright so lots of people have expressed their negative thoughts about this course. What about something positive?

From the people that have now made it out of the rat race via trading, what are some books or strategies that have helped you get out of your day job?

All strategies exist for a reason, all have a purpose. All are are useful in one or another market condition/view.

Ergo learn all of them and be at least prepared to use any strategy as required.

And if you were that sure would you consider mentoring a novice?

You'll get a warm fuzzy feeling on the inside, knowing you've helped someone:

NWAM

That would be welfare. :

 

[toughlessons]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

All strategies exist for a reason, all have a purpose. All are are useful in one or another market condition/view.

Ergo learn all of them and be at least prepared to use any strategy as required.

That would be welfare. :

Am I the only one who see's the irony in this situation? Those playing the role of the experts on this forum criticise someone for charging to teach strategies, yet you wouldn't help someone yourself for free or do much more than saying 'read books' hmmm, I can see why we turn to weekend courses...

Just for the record;
I thought Daniels Income strategy 3 day course was worth what I paid for it, really I don't know somewhere else I would have learned as much as I have in the 3 days and over the last 6 months, sure it was painful to lose so much but, I think MANY people are in this or simmilar situations given what happend over August.

Unfortunately I am not aware of where to go for anything less 'hyped' but still interactive and I guess this is the sad part of a thread that does nothing to give those like me and NWAM an alternative, so I fear people will still end up doing courses, getting over-confident, reckless and learn the hard way.... I knew I should have sat in the sidelines during August, but I got greedy...

 

[sails]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Toughlessons, perhaps you think there is a silver bullet somewhere or some sort of secret way to make money.

The reality is that there are many option strategies that can be used and they all can make money if market/volatility conditions pan out.

The strategy you are looking at works the same as selling a naked put at the same strike/month you would do your long CFD and short call strategy. Some option educators conveniently omit the fact that you are paying a high interest rate to hold the long CFD.

Instead of putting a stop loss on your CFD, you put the stop loss on the put. You lose the same money AND you are not paying a daily interest fee on your long CFD.

Now, if the market co-operates and zig-zags along sideways, you will make money. But if it shoots down, you will lose. The worst thing is that your CFD guaranteed stop loss gets triggered just as the market is about to turn back up. If you lose your protective long CFDs and then the market shoots back up with the short call in the market, you will get burned very quickly.

I have studied options for a long time and what I learned has saved me getting too badly burned. However, I never did find a fail safe means of making regular income EVERY month.

And, if I did find it, I wouldn't be selling it at a seminar. I would set up managed funds and use the strategy to make good returns.

So, be thankful the guys here at ASF are being honest with you - and for free. And, after years of studying and testing everything I could find to make regular monthly money with time decay (theta), nothing worked consistently.

It's a case of learning options and then looking for opportunities to use the various strategies as a tradesman uses his tools of trade. And that takes time to study and time (experience) in the market.

PS - and what I have written above is pretty much what WayneL told you in his last post in this thread...

 

[mazzatelli]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Am I the only one who see's the irony in this situation?

Yes

Those playing the role of the experts on this forum criticise someone for charging to teach strategies, yet you wouldn't help someone yourself for free or do much more than saying 'read books' hmmm, I can see why we turn to weekend courses...

Yeah, we are all a$$holes, no two ways about it. Do those thousand dollar + courses. Trade your way to financial fiefdom!!!

To cut the bullshizzle - Wayne has posted numerous threads since the beginning of time, going through basics, answering questions etc. for $0 (note the dollar sign only). Which reminds me I need to start a thread to smoke him out for his misdeeds.

Through fire and water, from the lowest dungeon to the highest peak, he has battled with covered call nut-riders. Until at last he has thrown down his enemies and smote their ruins by the mountain side.

NB: And the constant reinforcement in your posts praising DK, we don't fall for marketing gimmicks here.

 

[toughlessons]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Indeed and I really should apologise for directing my personal frustrations at WayneL and the others here. I am finding it challenging to know how to learn the ropes in the many tools without being burned as much as I have been so far.

Toughlessons, perhaps you think there is a silver bullet somewhere or some sort of secret way to make money.

True, and as you say a fantasy on my behalf...

The strategy you are looking at works the same as selling a naked put at the same strike/month you would do your long CFD and short call strategy. Some option educators conveniently omit the fact that you are paying a high interest rate to hold the long CFD.

Totally agree, and now I am seeking to learn more strategies, and I see that I have received free education here re: Naked OTM puts = covered calls but with no interest and less brokerage., but basically same risk and vix issues.

... However, I never did find a fail safe means of making regular income EVERY month.

Did you look into a mix of naked puts & naked calls so if the market moves sharply they will generally buffer each other?

To cut the bullshizzle - Wayne has posted numerous threads since the beginning of time, going through basics, answering questions etc. for $0

So, be thankful the guys here at ASF are being honest with you - and for free.

Thank you for your comments and free learning, and umm, raw honesty that some silver bullet chasers really do need... apologies for the comments that well, ignorant of who the people here and how much they may already contribute and have done so far.
I think I shall read the other forums more before posting like the previous one

NB: And the constant reinforcement in your posts praising DK, we don't fall for marketing gimmicks here.

I guess I am saying although the strategy is very flawed for 'a reliable monthly income' there are valid points I have learned about trading, CFDs, options and such. but mostly I learned efficient ways to lose cash

 

[mazzatelli]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

NB: And the constant reinforcement in your posts praising DK, we don't fall for marketing gimmicks here.

I guess I am saying although the strategy is very flawed for 'a reliable monthly income' there are valid points I have learned about trading, CFDs, options and such. but mostly I learned efficient ways to lose cash

Yeah sails, you're one of those vigilantes that are the first to point your fingers! :

 

[Robshan]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

The interesting thing that I find is that people seem to have a real issue with paying for education.

I realise that there are definitely some hucksters around that take advantage but I think that there is some genuinely valuable information that can be accessed for a fee. You just need to do your due diligence, take an objective position distanced from the sales hype and find some genuine reviews.

One thing that really put me off the DK program when I was seriously considering it was that most of the "testimonials" were about how much confidence they had based on the sales presentation ... this is not a testimonial of results .... you want someone who has been doing it for at least a few months (preferrably years) with consistent success. Too many of these guys have little substance in their customer satisfaction stories ... that's where a thread like this is honest and helpful.

I think that lumping all people who sell courses into the same basket is narrow minded and limiting, everyone needs mentors but you need to make an informed decision in who you choose.

WayneL and Sails provide valuable input and it's greatly appreciated.

 

[toughlessons]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Yeah sails, you're one of those vigilantes that are the first to point your fingers! :

whoops I see I misquoted , sails diddn't post that you did mazzatelli, can't edit it either