CSS - Clean Seas Seafood

[bluewater]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

Amazing, another recently-joined ASF member pops straight into the CSS thread to defend CSS... I wonder who "bluewater" works for...

Look at that for a first post. Could "bluewater" be any more blatant if he tried? Is anyone being fooled?

You're probably going to get a better response if you just do it openly, "bluewater".

G'day Sdajii,
First off, thanks for the sledging, you certainly got my attention.
When I first opened this I thought – can’t this dude read - then much to my embarrassment I found I had NOT sent my comments (posted below) as I thought I had. Please be gentle with me, this is the first time I have made a mistake in my 62 years! - Thank god I was quick enough to delete my hasty response in reference to you washing your mouth out with soap for even suggesting I was “onside” or “a member of” this mob of bushwhackers.

Updates -
In regards to Sashimi, regardless of who is who or who works for who, my motto is honesty in all things.... It does none of us any good to believe in false info…. I am not sledging Sashimi either, just getting the facts right.

Sdajii – following are my missed comments I thought I had posted yesterday, sorry for the confusion but I trust that if you read it you may / may not forgive my first attempt to join an online forum.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
G’day all, (12 April 2010)
“OK”, that’s enough…..Juicy Lucy, just how much can a man take!
I may be a bit long winded in my initial contact with y’all but without “fish” there is no CSS, let alone returns to investors.
All my references to issues on day one with the release of the prospectus are still relevant today.

I have a passion for aquaculture - particularly the propagation with the possibility of re-seeding the wild.
As the global boffins are stating the world will be out of fish by 2040, (as a life long fisherman and after seeing the decline in so many fisheries first hand I agree with them) and the present controversy of the Northern Blue Fin tuna (NBT), and many other species I have naturally gravitated to CLEAN SEAS TUNA LIMITED (CSS) as an exercise in learning the ropes of “Investing” & try to sort the truth from the BS.

As I have waded through the “DYOR” phase I am mortified to find I know diddly squat on the facts of investing, compared to what I thought I knew!
Believe me, when stepping from “fishing” to “investing” I have just about worn out the web acronyms page.

Silly me, I must be an absolute whacker because I thought a publicly listed company was required to be transparent and honest with its investors.
I understand that; “ASX is obliged to monitor conduct in relation to the markets and facilities it operates, to supervise the market and ensure compliance with its rules, and to refer to ASIC any suspected breaches of the law.”
Therefore; if any breaches are noticed, ASX is to then notify ASIC
It seems I totally misunderstood the obligations/authority of ASX/ASIC as stated above, because when I follow (for example) the CSS path I find ASX/ASIC appear to be in hiding and/or in denial. I just do not understand when ASX asked when all the fish died if the matter was “material” and CSS just gave the blunt answer ”NO”…..sssooo!?!?!?!?!? What does ASX/ASIC do with this type of fob off? Just lie down and cringe!?!?!

Starting at the beginning with the “Clean Seas Tuna Limited Prospectus October 2005”…….there is the letter from the chairman which states in part “believe that over the next three years this should lead to the establishment of an exciting and long term commercially viable SBT business”…..
The importance here is the wording - ”the next three years” & “commercially viable SBT business”…..which starts the bells ringing – probably more to the point would be “for whom the bell tolls” I read this on the day it was released and knew is was a bit of a furphy, knowing the history of Kinki Uni (Japan) and the history Achotines Laboratory in ref to the YFT...... yet here was a local bloke boasting he would get it up and have a “commercially viable SBT business” within 3 years!.go figure!?!?!?!?!


So the commercially viable SBT business” should have been viable in 2008…......we all know that water temperature is critical to tuna, so why try to grow tuna from an egg in waters unsuited to the fish, the prospectus clearly states the natural breeding (spawning) grounds for SBT are the warm tropical waters and the only known spawning grounds for SBT are located in the Indian Ocean, between the north west coast of Australia and Indonesia.

Today (1500hrs - 12 April 2010) the Sea Surface Temperature is falling at a steady rate, as it does in any normal year, with today’s temperature being 21.7 ºC in the area of Arno Bay ……..
“(Page 32 CSS Prospectus) 5.10 Production Of SBT Fingerlings _ Observation of spawning SBT in their natural habitat in the Indian Ocean off Western Australia indicates a need for an ambient spawning temperature in excess of 25C. However, the average maximum summer water temperature is less than 25c at Arno Bay”
I understand the difference between “spawning” and “fingerlings” and I also know what happens when (particularly) fingerlings are subject to temperature differences, in this case the fingerlings will in all probability go into thermal shock and croak it.

So, CSS already knew the temperature required for the survival of tuna fingerlings is in excess of 25 ºC yet have the impudence to produce the latest (CLEAN SEAS TUNA LIMITED announcements 31/03/2010 - Tuna spawning update March 2010) that states the “company remains confidant it will be able to put fingerlings into sea cages before the ocean temperatures become too cold”!?!?!?!!?
Who’s plucking this duck!
If you click on West Point (Tip of Eyre Peninsular) the temperature is 16.6 ºC……trust me, this water (temperature) goes north during winter….making a beeline for Arno Bay.

So, CSS has not yet kept a fish alive to date…… will need to spawn more tuna…….grow the tuna to a size that make it possible to transfer to the open water cages (CSS prospectus states “By day 50, SBT fingerlings of approximately 7-10 grams should be ready for transfer to sea cages for growout”) so that’s 50 days from the announcement on 31/03/2010 which takes the transfer to ~ 20th May 2010, whereby I just know the water is going to be a great deal colder than the minimum of the 25 ºC needed for the fingerlings to survive.

One would think CSS would have competent helmsmen at the wheel and be intelligent enough to make the very serious decisions required to safe guard, not only the big, but also the mum & dad investors. So who is driving this particular rubber ducky?
Why try to mislead the investors by stating they (CSS) remain confidant they would be able to put fingerlings into sea cages at this time of the year. Still, in all fairness CSS did not say the fingerlings would survive the transfer; just that CSS would put the fingerlings in a cage!….. well that takes care of the fish.

Sponsorship. Or better known as “creative accounting”. Hard to call this one an investment opportunity.
I obviously have a very poor Excel program (probably has a fishy virus) because no matter what I do I just cannot make it show a profit with values supplied by CSS. And why on earth in the beginning would CSS pay a fixed price for a product to the grower when it leaves CSS at the mercy of the fish market, which is / has / and always will be fickle.

Can any one tell me that as an investor in any listed company am I allowed access to the company books to check on where/how/who/why my investment is spent. I do not mean the bulk end of year report – the “creative accounting”. I am referring to the real hard cash figures, AKA “the truth”
And is there any avenue that reveals the identity of those making decisions on behalf of CSS.

Can anyone tell me if there has ever been a dividend payed back to investors?

CSS has/had thousands of metric tonnes of Mulloway and King Fish………..so why is this company going broke?

Where can I go to find the exact $/ ¢ paid to CSS by government.

Who, in Govt, is responsible to keep check of the money on behalf of the taxpayers ………fact is we (taxpayers) are the donors / sponsors for this mob.

There is nothing worse that when a venture of this type fails, because which bank and what investors are going to support future projects when bungling dodgy brothers make these ventures seem so risky.
The Port Lincoln Times and ABC radio have both given the news that CSS has closed down one of it’s processing establishments with the loss of ~23 jobs………….if this is not “material” type information I would like to know what the definition of material s because there is no announcement on the ASX www page for this CSS event.

I really am getting the feeling ASX/ASIC should perhaps upgrade their rules and use Breaker Morants’ “Rule 303”.

Anyway, I hope to have comms with any/all of you re this investing bit.

All opinions are mine. DYOR

 

[bluewater]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

Hi pween, Tell us more about leasing tuna for 6$ kg, Is that some kind of share farming?



Great article nizora, thanks i like the photo.
Does anyone think Hagen was setup in the photo sitting by the pool in a "beached whale" pose.

G'day Basilica,
I think you will find the $6/Kg pween is refering to is the lease price paid to the commercial fisherman.
"web page - aus food news, "the Commission for the Conservation of Southern Bluefin Tuna agreed to a net 20% cut in worldwide wild catch quota for SBT over 2010 and 2011. Australia’s share of the worldwide quota will be reduced from 5,265 tonnes to 4,015 tonnes (a decrease of 23.4%)."

So the total quota overseen by AFMA is now 4,015MT any part of this can be leased by the bigger players in the industry from the smaller quota holders that do not have enough tonnage to warrent farming, or who do not wish to farm their quota.
The usual going rate is $6-8/Kg -----then the fisherman leasing the quota goes fishing and catches & farms the SBT.

 

[Sdajii]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

Hi bluewater, thanks for your post. It certainly does change the context of your first post, and of course, if it had gone through earlier as you had expected, I wouldn't have posted what I did, so, of course, I'll take it back.

Good post (would have been much better as a first post, as you intended ), I share your dismay with ASX/ASIC. The CSS board has given the most blatant example of breaching the rules one could imagine, and yet nothing has been done. If CSS has achieved nothing else, they have exposed the full extent of how useless ASIC is and how little protection we have as investors. I feel ashamed of how little I looked into the finer details of CSS before putting my money on the line, but I have trouble understanding how anyone could make that mistake now. Could it be any more clear that CSS is going nowhere but down in the medium term, and almost certainly dead in the medium to long term? There was some excuse for getting involved before, but after recent events you deserve to lose your money (as you will) if you buy in now.

I think you're also right about this sort of idiocy keeping investors away from other aquaculture or agricultural investments. It hurts the whole industry.

 

[sashimi]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

Bluewater.

I have recently read your approach to this business and as a result gone back over the issue of stocking density and you are right and i am wrong. I apoligise for this error. there is no excuse for me making this mistake. I will try not to let it happen again.

I, like you have seen the Australian fishing industry wiped out in 30 years pretty good accomplishment you might say and something Australia should be proud of .....ha! ha!

I entered this debate in the hope that I would be able to stimulate knowledgeable people like yourself to openly discuss the issues and to assist in giving people wishing to invest in this industry some kind of knowledge base for the decision making process which would in turn, help the development of this new industry.

I for one have learned a great deal, however i can only speak for myself.

Clean Seas biggest problem is they propagate the belief that they will own the future of this industry which is of course nonsense and always was nonsense.
If they had the courage to speak the truth and open up the conversation to the whole world things might turn out for the better.

Don't be surprised if you see Clean Seas move some of their operation to Port Stevens in the near future. Port Stephen boasts water temperature from 16 to 25 degrees and there is one site for-sale in area.
In my opinion it is still only a borderline location but it might get them through the gate.

I have searched the whole world looking for suitable site for breeding tuna and there are not many. The Kinki Uni. site is almost perfect and the Med. Sea has merit also but there are almost no places within Australian Territorial waters that stack up.

I know that it is easy to critisize people like Hagen and I agree with the sentiment of speaking the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but in principle, it doesn't work.

I know the Australian fishing backwards and as far as I can tell, no-one got where they are, by being honest.
For me personally after spending a lifetime in the industry starting with my first boat at six years getting to the point when I should be at the top my career its not even possible to get a job as a ********.

Another of the issues is politics, how does a politician make a decision in relation to the fishing industry.
Bull**** baffels brains every time.

Scientists, nearly all the scientists in Australia are employed by Government so they are never going to speak out, They will be out of a job so fast they won't know what happened.

So in the end,
greed and ego have played their role,
many people are much more knowledgeable on the issue of breeding tuna than in the past.
Clean Seas have burn't a couple of hundred million of someone else's money,

and in the end who cares

My opinion only Do your own research

 

[tge oracle]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

The flight shutdowns accross Europe will be starting to have a an impact on CSS as much of their YTK business relies on European customers which will further erode revenue / earnings from YTK.


Note - I don't hold CSS and the above is my opinion only, DYOR.

 

[squidlyadams]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

found out a nice piece of info. The fish all died as someone was spraying pesticides around the tank and this led to a contamination and inevitably the death of the fingerlings. Will this change peoples opinions considering the amount of progress they did make in the previous attempt. Financially they are in a pickle, so I think they have one attempt left and we will wake up and CSS will not longer be trading on the asx

 

[malachii]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

found out a nice piece of info. The fish all died as someone was spraying pesticides around the tank and this led to a contamination and inevitably the death of the fingerlings.

Surely if this was the case then they would have released this too the market. It sure would come across better than hiding it as that just appears to be either incompetance or their process doesn't work. Both cases worse in my opinion than an "accidental poisoning".

malachii

PS I hold NO shares or financial interest in CSS or any affiliates.

 

[Sdajii]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

How reliable is that information? Presumably only CSS would know that, and why would it take until now for them to speak up, and why wouldn't they have been keen to get the word out? Sure, they have no fear of the "authorities" and will lie or illegally withhold information as they desire, but presumably they would want this to be known. Doesn't sound right to me.

*Disclosure - I do not hold and am a disgruntled investor who got burned by CSS and their evil ways!

 

[bluewater]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

Surely if this was the case then they would have released this too the market. It sure would come across better than hiding it as that just appears to be either incompetance or their process doesn't work. Both cases worse in my opinion than an "accidental poisoning".

malachii

PS I hold NO shares or financial interest in CSS or any affiliates.

G'day malachii......maybe they were spraying insecticides for cockroaches, well there goes half the board.....pls excuse my ignorance, but I have noticed there has been no trading on CSS today……..is there a reason for this?

 

[squidlyadams]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

How reliable is that information? Presumably only CSS would know that, and why would it take until now for them to speak up, and why wouldn't they have been keen to get the word out? Sure, they have no fear of the "authorities" and will lie or illegally withhold information as they desire, but presumably they would want this to be known. Doesn't sound right to me.

*Disclosure - I do not hold and am a disgruntled investor who got burned by CSS and their evil ways!

Hagen himself said that it was "due to human error" and I will not disclose how I came about this information but it was internally. The specifics of how the fish died do not need to be released to shareholders, but Hagen did say it was human error and the information I later obtained from a clipsal 500 function also was beneficial.

I do hold shares in CSS but DYOR

 

[GumbyLearner]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

Hagen himself said that it was "due to human error" and I will not disclose how I came about this information but it was internally. The specifics of how the fish died do not need to be released to shareholders, but Hagen did say it was human error and the information I later obtained from a clipsal 500 function also was beneficial.

I do hold shares in CSS but DYOR

I don't DYOR..........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

 

[malachii]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

Hagen himself said that it was "due to human error" and I will not disclose how I came about this information but it was internally. The specifics of how the fish died do not need to be released to shareholders, but Hagen did say it was human error and the information I later obtained from a clipsal 500 function also was beneficial.

I'm sorry but you cant be serious - whispered conversations at a racetrack????? Information gathered on the quiet internally that you are sharing on a chat site???? Give me a break!!

How can anyone actually take anything like this seriously when it comes from an anonymous person making vague claims that can't be substantiated?

IF this information was true then yes - how the fish died absolutely needs to be released to the shareholders (especially if they are holding "secret briefings" to a select few and releasing information that is not out in the market). When I am an owner of a business, I want to know the ins and outs of all major problems. Whether this was caused by accidental poisoning or anything else, the major points must be released to the owners. The employees (I'm assuming you are one if you are finding out things internally otherwise I would suggest you forward your claims to the local police and ASIC for investigation) need to remember that they are FULLY answerable to the owners of the business (ie shareholders).

If I was a shareholder (which I am not and haven't been for several years) then I have to say that I would be pretty peeved that one of my employees was releasing "secret" company information that managment for some reason didn't want released - onto a publically available chat forum. If the company was not willing to investigate and prosecute then I would have to consider my options (hyperthetically of course!).


malachii

 

[bluewater]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

Hagen himself said that it was "due to human error" and I will not disclose how I came about this information but it was internally. The specifics of how the fish died do not need to be released to shareholders, but Hagen did say it was human error and the information I later obtained from a clipsal 500 function also was beneficial.

I do hold shares in CSS but DYOR

G’day squidlyadams,
I do not hold shares and/or any interest in any ventures, but I am interested in investing in the future of aquaculture that shows promise in propagation and / or reseeding the wild.

I am on a very steep learning curve and have chosen CSS as an example venture to gain knowledge of the workings of the stock exchange / investing before I throw money in the ring.

So far all I am seeing is the blatant condescension shown by CSS towards its’ investors and the apparent toothless snarling by ASX/ASIC towards the cover-ups’ demonstrated by CSS to date.

Your post only reinforces my uneasiness to be engaged in any investing whatsoever, when the regulators (ASX/ASIC) are so conspicuous by their absence.

1. To get to your posting whereby you state that “Hagen himself said that it was "due to human error" (I assume you are referring to all the dead fish) leaves me somewhat baffled!
Where was the management of the day……..if the numbers are crunched each fingerling is worth probably $million each (paid for by the investors) but CSS management appears to deem it unnecessary to have “fail safe” protocols in place to ensure not one of the fingerlings is ever sprayed with insecticide!?!?!?!?
A. If this is in fact how the fish were killed at least the “cause of death” can be fixed….. This would indicate to me (if I were an investor) that there is still hope for the project.
B. But if the cause of death is a complete failure of the whole exercise of establishing a “commercially viable SBT business” then this would leave me, as a potential investor with no choice…. I would not put a cent into CSS.


2. Your next statement of “The specifics of how the fish died do not need to be released to shareholders,” ……baffled is not the word I would use here….absolute amazement would be more like it!
A. Contrary to your thoughts, I, as a potential investor do need to know what’s happening to allow me to make a decision on whether to throw money at something that works, or not.
B. The statement also appears to be showing the worthless worth of ASX/ASIC. I had assumed all investors were to have the same information (transparency) to any / all goings on (dodgy or otherwise) to ensure fair trading to all parties. Yet you (a share holder - for one, how many others) have this “cause of death” information yet there is no notification on the ASX www page “CLEAN SEAS TUNA LIMITED announcements” Is there a special understanding between the “insiders” and the “outsiders” that I am missing
C. So if there are entities within CSS that have inside information at least those entities would have the information to make a decision on whether to buy/sell subject to knowing if the fish were killed via accident or via failure of the propagation exercise. Where is ASX/ASIC in all this?

There are four matters I am researching via the DYOR phase.
1. Fishing – This involves catching fish with a scoop net, hook, pursein net, propagation ……..regardless of the method, fish have to be in the system to have a business. (cost of fishing)
2. Farming – This involves the husbandary of live fish from the commencement of farming through to the harvesting. (cost of production)
3. Marketing – This involves the processing through to the end user, not just the market. (cost of marketing)
4. Then it’s just a small matter of “knowing” the abilities of the chiefs making all decisions in relation to the fish – for example, if an entity has a history of baking cup cakes and then makes decisions on fish health then a minus factor of ~99.999999% is added to the Excel - then adding the 3 production costs and subtracting the market value (the real cash in hand back to CSS) and – well I’ll be, there is zilch left?

In all areas I find many missing links with CSS that just do not add up, but I will keep looking to satisfy myself on what the factual reality is.

My opinions only DYOR

 

[nizora]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

found out a nice piece of info. The fish all died as someone was spraying pesticides around the tank and this led to a contamination and inevitably the death of the fingerlings. Will this change peoples opinions considering the amount of progress they did make in the previous attempt. Financially they are in a pickle, so I think they have one attempt left and we will wake up and CSS will not longer be trading on the asx

News just came out:

22 April 2010
Company Announcements

ASX RELEASE – SOUTHERN BLUEFIN TUNA (SBT) LIFECYCLE CLOSURE UPDATE
Clean Seas Tuna Ltd advises that it has completed the 2009/10 summer SBT broodstock spawning trials. The SBT broodstock will now be wintered and conditioned for the 2010/11 summer production run.
The company successfully advanced the spawning of its SBT to January which was two months earlier than in the past with broodstock spawning for a three month period which was twice as long as in the previous year. The company is pleased that controlled spawning events have now been achieved for the third successive year at their Arno Bay SBT broodstock facility.
SBT larval rearing trials are continuing. SBT larvae and fingerlings (currently up to day 40) are being successfully trialled at the DPI hatchery facility at Port Stephens in NSW. Larval rearing trials at the company’s purpose designed SBT facility at Arno Bay are expected to conclude in the near future with larvae of up to 38 days being produced to date. Fertilised eggs were also transferred to the South Australian Government’s SARDI facility at West Beach and the Northern Territories DPI facility at Darwin. At all facilities good hatch rates were achieved and the Darwin hatchery raised larvae through to day eight in their first season.

 

[sashimi]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

WELL DONE,
THIS IS THE REAL McKOY CONTRATULATIONS WELL DONE KEEP IT UP

Congratulation well done
.......................................................

 

[Basilica]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

found out a nice piece of info. The fish all died as someone was spraying pesticides around the tank and this led to a contamination and inevitably the death of the fingerlings. Will this change peoples opinions considering the amount of progress they did make in the previous attempt. Financially they are in a pickle, so I think they have one attempt left and we will wake up and CSS will not longer be trading on the asx

Hi Squidlyadams, I find it hard to believe that what you heard at the races is true. Air borne pesticides designed to kill insects may not have the concentration to kill fish when diluted by many trillion times with the tank water. (I have killed yabbies like that but they are much closer related to insects than fish)

Hi Bluewater, thanks for clearing up the leased fish question for me.

Hi Sashimi, I am totally unsure who you are congradulating and why. Can you expand on your praise.

 

[sashimi]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

Hi Basicalla.

For the first time it's the truth.
Its stabilizing

Now we would like to know where CSS is going from here and how is it going to get there?

I mentioned ego and greed in a recent post and I neglected to mention Ambition.

As many of us know, there is a huge ambition driving this business.

If they keep this up, develop it,................. I think they have got chance

DYOR

 

[Basilica]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

Hi Basicalla.

For the first time it's the truth.
Its stabilizing

Now we would like to know where CSS is going from here and how is it going to get there?

I mentioned ego and greed in a recent post and I neglected to mention Ambition.

As many of us know, there is a huge ambition driving this business.

If they keep this up, develop it,................. I think they have got chance

DYOR

Now i understand your response, I even read the announcement again lokking for the hidden good news but there was none.

 

[tge oracle]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

For those of you still invested the 4C doesn't look pretty. Rapidly declining revenue from YTK sales and escalating expediture ( Staff costs / Working Capital ).
They have, prematurely, decided to reduce YTK production 1.25 to 1.0Mill in anticipation of successful SBT propogation. This failed to materialize so now they are now left with reduced YTK revenue and fingers crossed for next years SBT trials.....only problem is.... they will run out of funds by Q3.
In anycase the AUD must be impacting them significantly as they rely heavily on European sales for YTK so next quater could be much worse.

The Annual Report, July/Aug will be ugly for investors and another Cap Raising will be their only hope.


Note - Opinion only. Not invested.........just watching the inevitible!

 

[Bigukraine]

Re: CSS - Clean Seas Tuna

The moons are turning red, i see a bad one riseing, i see trouble on the way, look's like we are in for heavy weather , the crystal ball is telling me bankruptcy by november (sorry it rhymed) really by feb 2011 but what would i know i was a former share holder, hey that rhyme's good luck to all holders dyor