Corruption in Australia

[Happy]

From ABC, October 16, 2006
Australia to make South Pacific aid conditional
Australia says it will impose conditions on aid to Papua New Guinea (PNG) and Solomon Islands to get better governance in the South Pacific.
The Prime Minister, John Howard, says Australia has every right to attach conditions to its aid.
"If you want Australian aid, you've got to reduce corruption. If you want Australian aid, you've got to improve governance," Mr Howard said.
"If you want Australian aid, you've got to have a better approach to economic management.
"It's not a question of forcing countries to do things, it's a question of defending the operation of the rule of law in Australia."
Mr Howard says the diplomatic fight with Papua New Guinea and Solomon Islands is caused by the police effort to extradite and prosecute the suspended Solomons Attorney-General, Julian Moti.
He says the Government will not interfere with the police and the rule of law.

Not long time ago Australia’s corruption free ranking dropped a notch or two in international opinion.


I thought, would it be possible that migrants from corrupt countries bring some of their old habits to this country, hence lowering Australian’s previously higher ranking?

If we can extrapolate, it is frightening thought, when we will have to pay a bribe to get glass of water in hospital or fresh bandage or medicines.

If we will have to pay bribe with any building application form, or bribe to get employment, accommodation or kindergarten place.

But probably we have to get used to the idea, and start to form -protective- networking

 

[Epsilon]

Obviously you are reffering to the AWB scandal in Sadam's Iraq.
Yes, that was an unfortunate and very un-Australian incident, BUT the LAW is allowed without any governmental interference (even though it costs a lot to Australia's reputation and perhaps even in economic terms -wheat markets, although with the current drought, wheat may soon become a precious commodity-), and herein lies the problem, the fundamental difference, with some other third world countries. They refuse to allow Justic take its natural course. The Solomon Islands is a case in point. They not only have, not long ago, endeavoured to stop any Australian assistance in cleaning up their Judicial-Political mess, now they refuse to hand over someone who is being accused of a Paedophilic crime. That's unacceptable to any Democratic country my friend. Precisely for this reason our Government is talking "tough"to all our neighbours in the Pacific.....Perhaps mr. Downer went a bit to far....Perhaps the language he used is the only one they are in a position to clearly "comprehend".....


Cheers))

 

[bowser]

Corruption exists in every country. Always has, always will. AWB just got caught.

It does seem to be more obvious is some regions though. ie Africa, Latin America, Pacific Islands....

 

[Julia]

I completely support the government's tough stand re our Pacific neighbours.

Julia

 

[2020hindsight]

I completely support the government's tough stand re our Pacific neighbours.Julia

Julia My guess is youre talking local Pacific - not necessarily the ones diagonally opposite for instance
(Sorry Ive just been contemplating the plight of Hicks)

 

[Epsilon]

2020.......Plight of Hicks?
Surely you CANNOT be serious mate..."Plight"? The guy was arrested because he was being trained with terrorists. Trained on how to kill YOU and other innocent human beings, including fellow Australians......And you characterise his arrest and incarceration as plight?
Please....Spare a thought for the families of victims in: London, New York, Madrid, Buenos Ayres, Nairobi, Beslam, Jackarta, Bali (our own, Australians), New Delhi, Mumbai, Southern Thailand, Cairo, Aman, Baghdad, Kabul etc... etc.......
Ask them , what do they really think of the "plight"of the Hicks of this world.....

Cheers))

 

[2020hindsight]

And you characterise his arrest and incarceration as plight?

No problem with the arrest and incarceration - but coming up 5 years, and no day in court? Long stretches of solitary confinement etc. We have given away any high moral ground - question is are we now - or can we ever be - in that position again without using brain instead of braun. You didnt see the interviews with COL sorry Maj Mori then? (his defence lawyer). even he's disgusted with the US lack of morality in Hick's case. The man's a Major in the US Marines - you'd like him - everyone likes him - fine upstanding American lad - even he mate - even he is appalled. British citizenship would have been enough to get him out of the clutches - denied. Lesser charges than other Aussies let out and backhome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hicks
PS He admits he was foolish - but double check your facts about intending to bomb anyone.

 

[Epsilon]

Terrorism is the worst EVER problem our planet has been confronted with. You cannot fight islamic fanaticism that worships death and turns human beings into mass murderers in the name of a non-existent deity. The USA should have implemented a ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY in its (our) fight against the scourge, the the worst ever plague that has afflicted humanity. Islamic Terrorism. You cannot -sorry to say it, but it's true- be tolerant and humane with someone whose only ultimate aim is to destroy your civilisation and kill you unless you are prepared to esouse his barbarically savage religious ideology. Sorry mate: Your enemy, my enemy, is NOT G.W Bush, it's NOT the USA, it's NOT the WEST. Islamic fanaticism and the hatred, misanthropy and dangerously anti-Western actions they are involved in, is.
Please re-examine and set your "humane" priorities right. About time, methinks!


Cheers)

 

[2020hindsight]

Extracts from a couple of poems Epsilon. Maybe you'll see where Im coming from. Belive me I sympathise with the victims of bombing, Bali or elsewhere:-

IF I WERE GOD

If I were the God of the Righteous, and I mean in the global sense
And somebody said that the answer was “might” , and that killing was not an offence,
Or a volunteer bomber could somehow find “Bliss”, from the moment of impact and hence-
I’d prob’ly say “Son, just give-it-a-miss, ..and don’t be so God-damned dense!.”
Salvation my boy is a well informed joy,
(Enlightened, less frightened, and ranting-much-quietened,)
where you argue – like gents - at the fence.

The next one assumes that you're going to have to deal with the next generation of kids in some other way than to "nuke them"

HOW DO YOU JUDGE

How do you judge a small boy, born in bedlam, and brought up on bullet and bomb,
And forced to take sides since his age 4 or 5, with rebel or junta or com -
how Different from sons who grabbed rusty old guns, and told to report to the Somme?
yet They were our heroes - Aussies or Austrian, Polish or Prussian or Pom?
Empathy mate, he’s a victim of fate,
Teach him guitar 'stead of military gait,
Half a chance gladly, he'd tone down the hate
Gladly swap rifle for song.

How do you judge when a father steals bread, and feeding his child’s his objective,
How do you measure the pain in his head, against some divine law directive,
how Different from coots who wear grey flannel suits, and somehow avoid the detective?,
and Rob us all blind, and yet they can find a loophole from public invective?.
Empathy, friends, for the child must be fed,
Half a chance, gladly, he's elsewhere instead,
Tolerance, friends, the alternative's ‘dead ‘
and Hunger is hardly elective.

How do you judge an old man wearing rags, who reckons he lived to the letter,
Alternative place or alternative race, it all could have been so much better,
Alternative time he’d be getting by fine, instead he’s a vagrant and debtor,
how Different from chaps where the dice won perhaps? - but dice have made him a regretter.
Half a chance gladly he’d rise from the mud,
Guilty but huge mitigations m’lud,
Empathy - there but for fortune’s my blood (brother)
Him wearing rags, me jet setter.

What do we do with this empathy savoured, and tolerance practiced in kind?
Live 20 lives which are various-flavoured, and give twice the kindness you find,
Only so much that one mortal can do - even one kindness-inclined,
Only so much - but a thought born of fairness will help keep your goalposts aligned -
Follow the truth (and on this never budge)
Constantly giving your conscience a nudge,
Walk a brief mile in his shoes, don't prejudge, (and let)
Prejudice wither on vine.

 

[Epsilon]

Nice poems.......
Why don't you translate them in Arabic (and other languages spoken by Terrorist savages) so that Islamic Terrorists can also have acces to them in their own language? Their hearts maybe then can becoming more humane and can start showing some compassion for their fellow human beings, instead of killing them en masse.....Very doubtfull though, judging by their barbarically terroristic actions against their own people in Iraq, on a daily basis.

PS. If you live in Australia (somehow I think -I don't know "the" why......- you don't) I will kindly ask you to watch the ABC Foreign Correspondent programme tomorrow night. It's a special on Indonesian Terrorism. It may, I certainly hope so, make you reconsider the way you view on Islamic Fanaticism and the Islamic Terrorism, Worldwide, today....


Cheers))

 

[2020hindsight]

.. ..Very doubtfull though, judging by their barbarically terroristic actions against their own people in Iraq, on a daily basis. If you live in Australia (somehow I think -I don't know "the" why......- you don't) I will kindly ask you to watch the ABC Foreign Correspondent programme tomorrow night. It's a special on Indonesian Terrorism.

You have a point - the middle east is a mess bigtime. But as I heard someone say on the ABC in a recent debate (actually about Israel and Lebanon). ... "There's never going to be peace in that area until people learn to love their children more than they hate their enemies. "

Vigilance against explosives etc sure. (But OBVIOUSLY you're never going to stamp it out unless you get inside peoples heads). But let's "tone up the E string - and the positives - and tone down the hate". You have to deal with the moderate Moslems. You think they like what's happening ?

No, mate Im an Eskimo pineapple farmer, - who just happens to be particularly concerned about the farmers in central Australia - cant for the life of me think why I could be interested in people 1000's of miles away.

Totally changing the topic - I was surprised to discover that there are more Moslems in India than there are in Pakistan. And its been relatively peaceful for years. (I should check these things out before posting - but I havent - told to me by an Indian).

PS whenever I go to Perth I make a point of going up to the new memorial at Kings Park - once a year on 12.10 the beams of the rising sun can pass down this corridor and light up a plaque on a stone with the names of 16 Waussies killed. It's a really moving experience just to see the setup whether or not youre there on that day. Incidentally there were 30 odd Indonesians killed in 2002 and 15 in 2005 - religion unspecified granted - but everyone is suffering. And I dont think branding them all " ahhh whatever" is going to help.
PS Ill try to watch Foreign Correspondent.

 

[Nicks]

Terrorism is the worst EVER problem our planet has been confronted with. You cannot fight islamic fanaticism that worships death and turns human beings into mass murderers in the name of a non-existent deity. The USA should have implemented a ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY in its (our) fight against the scourge, the the worst ever plague that has afflicted humanity. Islamic Terrorism. You cannot -sorry to say it, but it's true- be tolerant and humane with someone whose only ultimate aim is to destroy your civilisation and kill you unless you are prepared to esouse his barbarically savage religious ideology. Sorry mate: Your enemy, my enemy, is NOT G.W Bush, it's NOT the USA, it's NOT the WEST. Islamic fanaticism and the hatred, misanthropy and dangerously anti-Western actions they are involved in, is.
Please re-examine and set your "humane" priorities right. About time, methinks!


Cheers)

In justice is also very scary. Conviction without trial scares me. He may be guilty and all what you say, no argument here, but no trial or justice? no law?

 

[Epsilon]

You have a point - the middle east is a mess bigtime. But as I heard someone say on the ABC in a recent debate (actually about Israel and Lebanon). ... "There's never going to be peace in that area until people learn to love their children more than they hate their enemies. "

Vigilance against explosives etc sure. (But OBVIOUSLY you're never going to stamp it out unless you get inside peoples heads). But let's "tone up the E string - and the positives - and tone down the hate". You have to deal with the moderate Moslems. You think they like what's happening ?

No, mate Im an Eskimo pineapple farmer, - who just happens to be particularly concerned about the farmers in central Australia - cant for the life of me think why I could be interested in people 1000's of miles away.

Totally changing the topic - I was surprised to discover that there are more Moslems in India than there are in Pakistan. And its been relatively peaceful for years. (I should check these things out before posting - but I havent - told to me by an Indian).

PS whenever I go to Perth I make a point of going up to the new memorial at Kings Park - once a year on 12.10 the beams of the rising sun can pass down this corridor and light up a plaque on a stone with the names of 16 Waussies killed. It's a really moving experience just to see the setup whether or not youre there on that day. Incidentally there were 30 odd Indonesians killed in 2002 and 15 in 2005 - religion unspecified granted - but everyone is suffering. And I dont think branding them all " ahhh whatever" is going to help.
PS Ill try to watch Foreign Correspondent.

. "There's never going to be peace in that area until people learn to love their children more than they hate their enemies. "

That famous sentencewas uttered in the 60's by Gold Meir, the Israeli (Woman) prime minister......You see, Arabs, muslims were the same even then, fourty years ago....And as far back as one cares to go....
Here is another true saying: If the Arabs (muslims) put down their weapons today, there will be peace in the Middle East tomorrow.....If the Israelis put their arms down today, there will be no Israel tomorrow....
Please use your enhanced noetic capabilities to thoroughly analyse it.....

Now, Perth? Hm? Nice, very nice place, and as yet unpopputed by the deleterious affects of islamic terrorism....Next time you are here drop us a line. I will delighted to share a beer or a coffee with you. I am in West Perth , almost every day (near Kings Park)......Sometimes I venture into that unspoiled (still) part of the World right in the middle of a major city.....
As for Indian muslims, yes, India has the second largest islamic population after Indonesia. However they always have had communal problems, mainly as a result of Islamic intolerance (Hindus are very tolerant and peaceful people, as are the Buddhist people-APART FROM THE CARNAGE IN SRI-LANCA).......

Anyway, please do try to watch tonight's Foreign Correspondent programme as I also will..

Cheers. Have a great day)

 

[2020hindsight]

. 1."There's never going to be peace in that area until people learn to love their children more than they hate their enemies. "
2. Now, Perth? .beer? .Sometimes I venture into that unspoiled (still) part of the World right in the middle of a major city.....
3. Anyway, please do try to watch tonight's Foreign Correspondent programme as I also will..Cheers. Have a great day)

1. Someone tried to extend the concept during the debate - "to love your enemies childern as well" - but Im enough of a realist to know that thats not going to happen. Not everyone is prepared to follow Ghandi's suggestino that we adopt a Muslim kid - and bring him up as a Muslem.

2. The Bali monument at Kings Park - I go there because I like to jog Someone (Perth resident) complained to me "what's a monument to these 16 - who after all were really only tourists - doing amongst these war memorials" I ignored this comment as a minority opinion. I don't think the old diggers whose names are engraved nearby would object even if they could. They were bigger than that.
Incidentally, by the end of WW1, the diggers were relatively good mates with the Johnny Turks - under the circumstances Mutual respect still related by their offspring to this day !!

3. I'll watch the program on Indonesia. (btw, Surely you dont think Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, is an extremist? btw also, maybe you will watch that program on Andrew Denton interviewing Major Mori re David Hicks (if it ever comes back)? - (which, lol is where we got off the thread in the first place).

Beer? sure - better make it lights though lol.

 

[wayneL]

Incidentally, by the end of WW1, the diggers were relatively good mates with the Johnny Turks - under the circumstances Mutual respect still related by their offspring to this day !!

Kinda going off-topic, but you just reminded me of one of the most touching quotes I have ever heard from a world leader. This one from Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (Military Leader of the Ottomans in WW1 and father of modern Turkey):

‘Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives, you are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and Mehmets to us, where they lie side by side here in this country of ours. You, the mothers, who sent their sons from faraway countries, wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well’.

A muslim an' all.

Cheers

 

[Epsilon]

Kemal Ataturk was ONLY in name a muslim. In fact he sent-off the caliphate from Turkey as well as making many changes (anti-Islamic) in the Turkish society. If Kemal was living today , and if he had the power and influence he had then, there would not be any islamic movement in Turkey, and perhaps even no functional islam at all!
As for his famous saying cited by you, he was also an extremely consumate diplomat, hence the saving and resurrection of Turkey later, after the Greeks had almost taken over most of the Aegean Turkey......That was only achieved because of his diplomatic manouvres that enticed the Western European Powers against the irrationally "belligerent"(so they were seen then) Greeks........
Anyway the fact is this: Kemal Atarkuk was far more anti-Islamo-Fascist than most of today's Western Leaders. He literally detested Islam! (Perhaps he knew more than some of today's "Leftists").........

Cheers))

 

[wayneL]

Kemal Ataturk was ONLY in name a muslim. In fact he sent-off the caliphate from Turkey as well as making many changes (anti-Islamic) in the Turkish society. If Kemal was living today , and if he had the power and influence he had then, there would not be any islamic movement in Turkey, and perhaps even no functional islam at all!
As for his famous saying cited by you, he was also an extremely consumate diplomat, hence the saving and resurrection of Turkey later, after the Greeks had almost taken over most of the Aegean Turkey......That was only achieved because of his diplomatic manouvres that enticed the Western European Powers against the irrationally "belligerent"(so they were seen then) Greeks........
Anyway the fact is this: Kemal Atarkuk was far more anti-Islamo-Fascist than most of today's Western Leaders. He literally detested Islam! (Perhaps he knew more than some of today's "Leftists").........

Cheers))

It is a great shame we don't have some Ataturks around today to keep the lunatic mullahs in check. It is a great shame that the Islamic countries have taken a step backwards into fundamentalism. This was not the case in Ataturks day as you point out. Even Afghanistan was a secular muslim society.

On the same vein (Fascism), I think we need to look at the log in our own eye as well. While concentrating on the faults of other societies/religions, we fail to see the drift of our own western societies towards right wing fascism, with the rabid lunatic TV evangelist, christian zionist, apocalyptic types in control in the US. They are no better than the idiot mullahs.

....and just for the record, I am not a "leftist". I would rather swallow razor blades.

 

[new girl]

Extracts from a couple of poems Epsilon. Maybe you'll see where Im coming from. Belive me I sympathise with the victims of bombing, Bali or elsewhere:-

IF I WERE GOD

If I were the God of the Righteous, and I mean in the global sense
And somebody said that the answer was “might” , and that killing was not an offence,
Or a volunteer bomber could somehow find “Bliss”, from the moment of impact and hence-
I’d prob’ly say “Son, just give-it-a-miss, ..and don’t be so God-damned dense!.”
Salvation my boy is a well informed joy,
(Enlightened, less frightened, and ranting-much-quietened,)
where you argue – like gents - at the fence.

The next one assumes that you're going to have to deal with the next generation of kids in some other way than to "nuke them"

HOW DO YOU JUDGE

How do you judge a small boy, born in bedlam, and brought up on bullet and bomb,
And forced to take sides since his age 4 or 5, with rebel or junta or com -
how Different from sons who grabbed rusty old guns, and told to report to the Somme?
yet They were our heroes - Aussies or Austrian, Polish or Prussian or Pom?
Empathy mate, he’s a victim of fate,
Teach him guitar 'stead of military gait,
Half a chance gladly, he'd tone down the hate
Gladly swap rifle for song.

How do you judge when a father steals bread, and feeding his child’s his objective,
How do you measure the pain in his head, against some divine law directive,
how Different from coots who wear grey flannel suits, and somehow avoid the detective?,
and Rob us all blind, and yet they can find a loophole from public invective?.
Empathy, friends, for the child must be fed,
Half a chance, gladly, he's elsewhere instead,
Tolerance, friends, the alternative's ‘dead ‘
and Hunger is hardly elective.

How do you judge an old man wearing rags, who reckons he lived to the letter,
Alternative place or alternative race, it all could have been so much better,
Alternative time he’d be getting by fine, instead he’s a vagrant and debtor,
how Different from chaps where the dice won perhaps? - but dice have made him a regretter.
Half a chance gladly he’d rise from the mud,
Guilty but huge mitigations m’lud,
Empathy - there but for fortune’s my blood (brother)
Him wearing rags, me jet setter.

What do we do with this empathy savoured, and tolerance practiced in kind?
Live 20 lives which are various-flavoured, and give twice the kindness you find,
Only so much that one mortal can do - even one kindness-inclined,
Only so much - but a thought born of fairness will help keep your goalposts aligned -
Follow the truth (and on this never budge)
Constantly giving your conscience a nudge,
Walk a brief mile in his shoes, don't prejudge, (and let)
Prejudice wither on vine.

A joy to read, thank you 2020.

No wonder you’re broke, you don’t shut up. I'd love to read all your posts but I cant keep up with you.

Epsilon seems to know a lot about the Middle East and its history. Most of what he says is true but he seems to blame the people rather than the ideology behind their actions. Hating and alienating people is not the answer though.

Do you know that these Jihadists are promised 70 virgins a night in heaven?

 

[Epsilon]

It is a great shame we don't have some Ataturks around today to keep the lunatic mullahs in check. It is a great shame that the Islamic countries have taken a step backwards into fundamentalism. This was not the case in Ataturks day as you point out. Even Afghanistan was a secular muslim society.

On the same vein (Fascism), I think we need to look at the log in our own eye as well. While concentrating on the faults of other societies/religions, we fail to see the drift of our own western societies towards right wing fascism, with the rabid lunatic TV evangelist, christian zionist, apocalyptic types in control in the US. They are no better than the idiot mullahs.

....and just for the record, I am not a "leftist". I would rather swallow razor blades.

Yeah, Kemal was a Great Statesman, perhaps living ahead of his time. Kemal's political and religious treatment of Islam indicate to us this: Today Islam (Islamic fanaticism that is) has gone even further back in time and anti-progressive backwardness than the time Kemal put it in ït's place"......
Your second sentence re: Christian Right etc, is, to say the least, an unbrdled exaggeration. Why am I saying this?
Well. Imagine this:
A). If the mullahs (and other islamo-fascist terrorists) had the military power, the unparalleled superiority in economic, military, social, infrastructural, and political matters, today there would no be our WEST with its freedoms, human rights and values as we know it.
B). We have yet to see Christian Fundamentalists training some of their fanatic followers on how to blow non-christian infidels and atheists (agnostics are we safe?) in Berlin, London or Rome....Not to mention the Muslims in the Middle East who, with their daily anti-West, anti-Christian and anti-Israel provocations, perhaps would be a justified target for such (Christian-Fundamental) mentality.

No comparison whatsoever my friend between the WEST and Islam. Its like comparing Light with darkness. Progress with barbaric, cruel, backwardness. Freedom with Tyranny.


Cheers))

 

[Bloveld]

Terrorism is the worst EVER problem our planet has been confronted with. You cannot fight islamic fanaticism that worships death and turns human beings into mass murderers in the name of a non-existent deity. The USA should have implemented a ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY in its (our) fight against the scourge, the the worst ever plague that has afflicted humanity. Islamic Terrorism. You cannot -sorry to say it, but it's true- be tolerant and humane with someone whose only ultimate aim is to destroy your civilisation and kill you unless you are prepared to esouse his barbarically savage religious ideology. Sorry mate: Your enemy, my enemy, is NOT G.W Bush, it's NOT the USA, it's NOT the WEST. Islamic fanaticism and the hatred, misanthropy and dangerously anti-Western actions they are involved in, is.
Please re-examine and set your "humane" priorities right. About time, methinks!


Cheers)

The worst problem the planet has ever faced?
Thanks for the warning Chicken Little.