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Climate change another name for Weather

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explod said:
Yep, sure sign the polar ice cap is breaking up faster and absorbing too much of the warmth.
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ROTFLMAO!!!!!!

Pull up a current sat image of the polar regions. http://igloo.atmos.uiuc.edu/cgi-bin/test/print.sh t's only slightly less than 20 years ago. Compare any period you want

The northern polar ice cap summer minimum was on a declining trend from 1979 until 2007, that's indisputable by anybody. If there was going to be a cold effect, it would have been in the middle of this decade in the summer season.

But the last two seasons have seen a significant INCREASE in polar ice, compared to 2007.

The cold weather CANNOT be caused by melting ice when it is in fact freezing. Look to the Sun!!!!!!

As a matter of fact, look to real science not some zealot nutters talking out of their @ss.

Think what your saying explod, that's just ridiculous. There are no credible scientists talking about anything except solar activity.
 
wayneL said:
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!

Pull up a current sat image of the polar regions. http://igloo.atmos.uiuc.edu/cgi-bin/test/print.sh t's only slightly less than 20 years ago. Compare any period you want
to 2007.
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Explod is correct.
Areal extent is a small part of the equation.
Go to climate scientists specialising in polar regions for more detailed answers.
Arctic sea ice is thinner and "newer" than it has been, and the "freezing" periods are getting shorter.
The satellite image analogy is comparable to one of dining at a fine restaurant with 5 chefs 20 years ago, and today dining at McDonalds with as many short-order cooks, and not being able to tell the difference!
 
rederob said:
Explod is correct.
Areal extent is a small part of the equation.
Go to climate scientists specialising in polar regions for more detailed answers.
Arctic sea ice is thinner and "newer" than it has been, and the "freezing" periods are getting shorter.
The satellite image analogy is comparable to one of dining at a fine restaurant with 5 chefs 20 years ago, and today dining at McDonalds with as many short-order cooks, and not being able to tell the difference!
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Rubbish, show me where this ice is breaking up in excess of the last 20 years of warmer trends.
 
Rob,

All I can find is the most ridiculous propaganda and/or the most preposterously tenuous science linking the breakup of the ice cap (which is actually recovering at this point:eek:) with cold weather.

There is however a preponderance of credible science linking the recent cold with lower solar activity.

Occam's razor would seem to apply here... with some conclusions to be drawn about the whole field of CC "science"/propaganda.
 
wayneL said:
Rob,

All I can find is the most ridiculous propaganda and/or the most preposterously tenuous science linking the breakup of the ice cap (which is actually recovering at this point:eek:) with cold weather.

There is however a preponderance of credible science linking the recent cold with lower solar activity.

Occam's razor would seem to apply here... with some conclusions to be drawn about the whole field of CC "science"/propaganda.
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You could try reading about Arctic sea ice from the most credible source: http://www.nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/
Here's a snippet:
Would 2008 break the 2007 record low summer minimum extent? Would the geographic North Pole be ice free for the first time in the satellite era? From May through July, cooler temperatures and winds less favorable to ice loss slowed the decline in ice extent. Nevertheless, by August the rate of ice loss was much faster than average””even faster than in 2007””as the effects of a warm Arctic Ocean worked against the thin ice cover. The melt season became a race: waning sunlight versus rapid ice loss.

Ultimately, summer 2008 finished with the second-lowest minimum extent in the satellite record, 9% above the 2007 minimum and 34% below average. A more diffuse ice cover and a thinner pack nevertheless suggested a record-low ice volume (ice area multiplied by thickness) at the end of summer.
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We are now into the 2009 season and sea ice coverage is clearly doing well. From a climate change perspective we will see if the tide is indeed turning in another 6 months - when the season is over and we can review the full data and not just areal extent.
 
rederob said:
You could try reading about Arctic sea ice from the most credible source: http://www.nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/
Here's a snippet:

We are now into the 2009 season and sea ice coverage is clearly doing well. From a climate change perspective we will see if the tide is indeed turning in another 6 months - when the season is over and we can review the full data and not just areal extent.
Click to expand...

Clearly then, explod's and your contention that break up of the Arctic ice cap being responsible for the recent very cold weather in the last couple of northern winters, is utter tosh.

Solar activity is where it's at, not CO2.

Now we've got this global warming hoax out of the way, let us start work on real environmental problems.
 
wayneL said:
Clearly then, explod's and your contention that break up of the Arctic ice cap being responsible for the recent very cold weather in the last couple of northern winters, is utter tosh.
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I love the way you choose conclusions.
Arctic sea ice extents are likely to peak in the next month or two.
A principal of global warming is that warmer oceans give rise to greater precipitation.
In northern climates, in winter, it is therefore most likely that snow events become more severe.
We can corroborate this with proven increases in glacial masses in northern Europe.
There are no surprises for climate scientists with what is now happening.
 
rederob said:
I love the way you choose conclusions.
Arctic sea ice extents are likely to peak in the next month or two.
A principal of global warming is that warmer oceans give rise to greater precipitation.
In northern climates, in winter, it is therefore most likely that snow events become more severe.
We can corroborate this with proven increases in glacial masses in northern Europe.
There are no surprises for climate scientists with what is now happening.
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That's nonsense Rob. Pro AGW climate scientists are attempting to run with the hares and hunt with the hounds, with a nifty (though nonsensical) AGW causation argument for any extreme weather event.

Hotter than normal - Global warming.
Colder than normal - Global warming.
Wetter than normal - Global warming.
Drier than normal - Global warming.
More stormy than normal - Global warming.
Calmer than normal - Global warming.
Mmore hurricanes and tornadoes - Global warming.
Less hurricanes and tornadoes - Global warming.
It's just normal - Oh that's global warming too.

All the while completely ignoring natural "forcings" such as solar activity and the El Niño - La Niña cycle.

The genuinely pleasing thing is that people are catching on to the ruse in there millions and only the committed left wing ideologues hell bent on control freakery still believe it, or at least don't have some doubts.

The game, fortunately, is up.

The genuine tragedy is, as I have predicted, that genuine cases of anthropogenic environmental damage is completely ignored and folks now doubt ALL environmental concerns.
 
wayneL said:
That's nonsense Rob.
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You and ducati should get together.
There will continue to be "extreme" weather events, irrespective of global warming.
However, the present northern winter is breaking very few historical records (I'm not aware of any, but I haven't searched deeply yet).
As for "natural forcings" you refer to, they are locked into established data for what they are worth. Unfortunately they are "ephemeral" from a long term climate perspective. Unlike the pent up effects of many man-emitted greenhouse gases which take years to decades before any observable impact is apparent. And then remain in the atmosphere for decades to centuries: Accumulating steadily until action to change the balance is in place.

On the environmental front I am in 100% agreement with you.
Here also we are experiencing the effect of inaction on known impending disasters on dozens of fronts. And here also we have powerful vested interests stamping on "environmentalists" at every opportunity.
Taking the world's oceans as a case in point, find a country that has a government agency out there helping clean them up? Typically it's left to a few NGOs or concerned individuals to spring into action, but to little avail given the scale of the problem and the limit of their resources.
 
wayneL said:
Hotter than normal - Global warming.
Colder than normal - Global warming.
Wetter than normal - Global warming.
Drier than normal - Global warming.
More stormy than normal - Global warming.
Calmer than normal - Global warming.
Mmore hurricanes and tornadoes - Global warming.
Less hurricanes and tornadoes - Global warming.
It's just normal - Oh that's global warming too.

QUOTE]

Yeah thats why its climate change. Not global warming...global warming being the term preferred by big oil and coal because it sounds so nice. Ahhhhhh warming what could be wrong with that!

It still amazes me how many sceptics are out there. People with their head up their arrse with no idea what they are talking about. To think you know more than the 1000s of scientists all over the world who have studied this and tracked the unfolding disaster for decades.

My guess is most of you are conservatives, with the idea of living frugally and ending global growth completley against your fundamentals... so you will dispute the clear reality of climate change as if it is an ideology.

Do scientists believe the planet will react predictably to the massive stimulus of CO2 pumped into the atmosphere and heat up at a steady rate where temperature records are set every year or two? Of course not! The planet could very well be in a holding pattern right now as evaporation has increased and deep ocean currents are still running cold.... it wont and cant last.

Think of it like our western economy. It was broken years ago... too much lending, too much debt, too much greed, but it continued to climb. It was like the living dead, certain to fail but still continuing along as if all was well. The global climate is in exactly the same position right now!
Click to expand...
 
SBH said:
Yeah thats why its climate change. Not global warming...global warming being the term preferred by big oil and coal because it sounds so nice. Ahhhhhh warming what could be wrong with that!

It still amazes me how many sceptics are out there. People with their head up their arrse with no idea what they are talking about. To think you know more than the 1000s of scientists all over the world who have studied this and tracked the unfolding disaster for decades.

My guess is most of you are conservatives, with the idea of living frugally and ending global growth completley against your fundamentals... so you will dispute the clear reality of climate change as if it is an ideology.

Do scientists believe the planet will react predictably to the massive stimulus of CO2 pumped into the atmosphere and heat up at a steady rate where temperature records are set every year or two? Of course not! The planet could very well be in a holding pattern right now as evaporation has increased and deep ocean currents are still running cold.... it wont and cant last.

Think of it like our western economy. It was broken years ago... too much lending, too much debt, too much greed, but it continued to climb. It was like the living dead, certain to fail but still continuing along as if all was well. The global climate is in exactly the same position right now!
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Jesus!

It that the best quality straw man argument + ad hominem slur you can come up with.

Seriously sub-standard both intellectually a argumentatively there SBH.

You will have to lift your game if you want to be regarded as a true GW junk science klaxon.

LOL
 
wayneL said:
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!

Pull up a current sat image of the polar regions. http://igloo.atmos.uiuc.edu/cgi-bin/test/print.sh t's only slightly less than 20 years ago. Compare any period you want

The northern polar ice cap summer minimum was on a declining trend from 1979 until 2007, that's indisputable by anybody. If there was going to be a cold effect, it would have been in the middle of this decade in the summer season.

But the last two seasons have seen a significant INCREASE in polar ice, compared to 2007.

The cold weather CANNOT be caused by melting ice when it is in fact freezing. Look to the Sun!!!!!!

As a matter of fact, look to real science not some zealot nutters talking out of their @ss.

Think what your saying explod, that's just ridiculous. There are no credible scientists talking about anything except solar activity.
Click to expand...

Satellite images do not show the underlying, only the recent surface snow, as you say "WHAT CAN BE SEEN". And selective shots at stratiegic times can distort the appearence even further.

And the only credible scientists are the ones that agree with your hypothesis. Have a read of "The fifth extinction" the physical evidence from actual ice samples going back millions of years has been well documented and substantiated the effects of the current ice sheet melting since mid 20th century.
 
explod said:
Satellite images do not show the underlying, only the recent surface snow, as you say "WHAT CAN BE SEEN". And selective shots at stratiegic times can distort the appearence even further.

And the only credible scientists are the ones that agree with your hypothesis. Have a read of "The fifth extinction" the physical evidence from actual ice samples going back millions of years has been well documented and substantiated the effects of the current ice sheet melting since mid 20th century.
Click to expand...

There is one thing missing from your hypothesis... THE SCIENCE.

Where's the science linking recent cold weather with melting ice and not solar activity and/or La Niña.

Let's get real eh?
 
Just a brief foray to enter some factual information into this discussion.


Scientists solve enigma of Antarctic 'cooling'
Research 'kills off' climate sceptic argument by showing average temperature across the continent has risen over the last 50 years

* Damian Carrington
* guardian.co.uk, Friday 23 January 2009 18.00 GMT


Scientists have solved the enigma of the Antarctic apparently getting cooler, while the rest of the world heats up.

New research shows that while some parts of the frozen continent have been getting slightly colder over the last few decades, the average temperature across the continent has been rising for at least the last 50 years.

In the remote and inaccessible West Antarctic region the new research, based on ground measurements and satellite data, show that the region has warmed rapidly, by 0.17C each decade since 1957. "We had no idea what was happening there," said Professor Eric Steig, at the University of Washington, Seattle, and who led the research published in Nature.

This outweighs the cooling seen in East Antarctica, so that, overall, the continent has warmed by 0.12C each decade over the same period. This matches the warming of the southern hemisphere as a whole and removes the apparent contradiction.

The issue, which had been highlighted by global warming sceptics, was an annoyance, said Steig, despite the science having been reasonably well understood. "But it has now been killed off," he said.

Gareth Marshall, climatologist at British Antarctic Survey, commented: "This work allows us to look at the continent as a whole, which we have not been able to do before with confidence. It fills a big hole in the data in West Antarctica – it is the final piece in the jigsaw."

The rapid warming now revealed in the west concerns some scientists. The new analysis suggests the West Antarctic ice sheet, like that in Greenland, is precariously balanced, said Professor Barry Brook at the University of Adelaide. "Even losing a fraction of both would cause a few metres of sea level rise this century, with disastrous consequences," he said.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jan/21/global-warming-antarctica
 
Pat said:
And more...
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24946650-401,00.html

The blah blah blah in this thread reinforces the FACT that we just don't know.
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From the article:

Aussie house prices under threat
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I expect this will be shot down in flames once it is analyzed. I already see some gaping holes in logic.
 

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Pat said:
And more...

The blah blah blah in this thread reinforces the FACT that we just don't know.
Click to expand...
Of course we do. :rolleyes:

Here is an story last year from RealClimate.org ... Climate Science from Climate Scientists.

Antarctica is Cold? Yeah, We Knew That

Despite the recent announcement that the discharge from some Antarctic glaciers is accelerating, we often hear people remarking that parts of Antarctica are getting colder, and indeed the ice pack in the Southern Ocean around Antarctica has actually been getting bigger. Doesn’t this contradict the calculations that greenhouse gases are warming the globe? Not at all, because a cold Antarctica is just what calculations predict… and have predicted for the past quarter century.
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http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/02/antarctica-is-cold/

wayneL said:
I expect this will be shot down in flames once it is analyzed. I already see some gaping holes in logic.
Click to expand...

Hockey Team Plays in Antarctica

Some names to conjure with there, including Rutherford and Mann who are part of the ‘Hockey Team’ involved in the infamous ‘Hockey Stick’ graph saga. So who better to call on when much of Antarctica isn’t playing ball with global warming. But wait! There is more fun to be had here - Real Climate, which includes Michael Mann, have previously said, “A cold Antarctica and Southern Ocean do not contradict our models of global warming.” You just can’t lose when playing the ‘consistent with climate models’ game can you!? Presumably, the findings of this new paper don’t contradict climate models either.
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http://climateresearchnews.com/2009/01/hockey-team-plays-in-antarctica/
 
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