Career advice

[Tyler Durden]

Hello all, just seeking the wisdom of the board here about my situation...

I like my job and most of the people I work with. I find my job interesting and it provides me with constant challenges. It is in a good location that is not too far from home. I am earning $70k and recently applied for a promotion, which would pay me $90k. I found out today that I didn't get it. I found out my colleague got it. From my bias view, I have a wider range of background experience and skills and I am a lot more hard working. However, from a less bias source, other people also shared the same view, saying they thought I would get it and were very surprised that this colleague got it.

Now here is where I'm torn - I have two minds inside me telling different things. One part of me is saying:

- It is hard to find a job that you enjoy and where you like the people
- I am happy with my current salary
- there are people who are struggling to find or keep jobs, so I should be happy I even have a job at all

However, another part of me thinks:

- I got screwed over
- if I stay another year in this job, the opportunity cost is that of a higher salary I could get elsewhere
- I need to send them a message, that if they want to keep me, they should've given me the promotion
- although I am happy with my current salary, it would've been better to get the raise
- this is a good opportunity to try out other industries (I have been thinking lately I should try to work in a field more align to stocks and the economy)

Just wanted to know everyone's take on this and what they would do in my situation.

 

[qldfrog]

I believe you are quite young, the only way to progress is to change:
This would broaden your knowledge/experience and is the only way to get up the $ scale fast enough
So cool down, enjoy a nice week end and start your searches, then handover your resignation..
the way i would do it but do not hurry up for the earliest exit: change for something worth it
Keep up informed

 

[Julia]

Disappointing for you, Tyler.
Have you had any discussion with the person you answer to as to why you missed out?

That's a legitimate question for you to ask and perhaps could lead into more pointed discussion about what you can expect for your future should you stay with the company.

Imo it's a big thing to like the work and your colleagues. If the promotion challenge hadn't come up, and you hadn't missed out on it, would you still be happy working there?
i.e. is it essentially your pride that's hurt?

I've left jobs I liked for what seemed like better opportunities and found to my cost that the culture of the new organisation left a lot to be desired.

Best of luck.

 

[Tyler Durden]

I believe you are quite young, the only way to progress is to change:
This would broaden your knowledge/experience and is the only way to get up the $ scale fast enough
So cool down, enjoy a nice week end and start your searches, then handover your resignation..
the way i would do it but do not hurry up for the earliest exit: change for something worth it
Keep up informed

Thanks qldfrog, yes, I don't wish to state my age, but in professional terms I guess I am young. I feel if I stay for another few years, then I will begin to be 'pigeon-holed' into this area which would narrow my chances at trying out a different area.

Disappointing for you, Tyler.
Have you had any discussion with the person you answer to as to why you missed out?

That's a legitimate question for you to ask and perhaps could lead into more pointed discussion about what you can expect for your future should you stay with the company.

Imo it's a big thing to like the work and your colleagues. If the promotion challenge hadn't come up, and you hadn't missed out on it, would you still be happy working there?
i.e. is it essentially your pride that's hurt?

I've left jobs I liked for what seemed like better opportunities and found to my cost that the culture of the new organisation left a lot to be desired.

Best of luck.

Thanks Julia. It is kinda complicated, let's just say that the person I answer to did not make the decision.

You're right, if the promotion hadn't come up, it'd still be happy days, so yes, my pride is hurt. I'd like to think that if this hadn't of happened then I wouldn't be feeling like this, but the fact is, it has happened.

The other thing is, there is absolutely no guarantee I would get it next year, so I guess even staying is a 'gamble' (in that I'm gambling that I'd get it next year). And if I don't get it next year, then I have just wasted another year.

 

[JTLP]

Disappointing for you, Tyler.
Have you had any discussion with the person you answer to as to why you missed out?

That's a legitimate question for you to ask and perhaps could lead into more pointed discussion about what you can expect for your future should you stay with the company.

Imo it's a big thing to like the work and your colleagues. If the promotion challenge hadn't come up, and you hadn't missed out on it, would you still be happy working there?
i.e. is it essentially your pride that's hurt?

I've left jobs I liked for what seemed like better opportunities and found to my cost that the culture of the new organisation left a lot to be desired.

Best of luck.

+1 - Julia nailed it.

It's most likely your pride that's been hurt. Have a chat to whom you answer to - see where you can improve and go from there. There is nothing wrong with asking for more $$$ as long as you can justify it - don't go brazenly in and demand it.

Culture is huge - you can chase the $$$ but you could end up working further from home with duds - that wouldn't be the best.

I also wouldn't recommend quitting without another job lined up. You may be out in the cold...:1zhelp:

 

[dutchie]

Hi Tyler
This is a very difficult question for you.
I agree with Julia that it is very important to like the job and be happy with the people you work with. This worth a certain currency.
If you are young and single then moving to another job is easier.
You must consider many factors before you take the plunge to a new job
- will you be happy with the new people and environs
- is the new job interesting and will it keep your interest
- is it as easy to get to and from work (a new job could cost you $5k in extra transport costs, as well as time)
- is the pay so much better
- are the prospects for advancement better
- will you get better/different experiences at the new job that will further your career
- how secure (in this economic climate) is the new job compared to the present one
- will you continue to bare a grudge because you were dudded if you stay
- will you be overlooked next time at your present job
- would you be developing a pattern of only staying a short time at each job

What I suggest you do is consider your options once you have had time to get over your recent disappointment
Talk to someone you trust outside of your workplace as this may show how much it has affected you
Start looking around for other jobs and see how they compare to your current one
Don't leave your current job until you have secured a better one!

If you find something that you think might be better after considering the above - go for it!

Most men work all their adult lives so you need to be happy.

Good luck

 

[sptrawler]

Well Tyler, If you like the job, you like the pay, you like the location.
What don't you like? you missed out on a promotion.

O.K you move jobs, you like the pay, you don't like the location, you don't like the job, you don't get a promotion.
What have you gained?

Unless the move is a definite career advancement stay where you are.IMO

 

[So_Cynical]

You got screwed over for sure Tyler...no one can do that job as good as you can, you are totally indispensable to your workplace, a vital part of the machinery and the company/Dept probably cannot survive without you.

Fix them all up and resign immediately...its the only dignified thing you can do, that ill teach them - the ungrateful bastards.

 

[johenmo]

I've left jobs I liked for what seemed like better opportunities and found to my cost that the culture of the new organisation left a lot to be desired.

Pretty good advice all round for you Tyler but the above is true in so many cases - me too, is all I can say. The grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. And did you want the new role or the $$ or both?

The most competent and/re the most qualified isn't always the winner. The chemistry between the applicant and the decision maker(s) will influence. I used to think attitude/ability and desire were the key points. I added chemistry (how your face fits) to it.

As Julia says - ask what was/were the gap(s). But don't let emotion steer you to a rash decision.

Good luck.

 

[Tyler Durden]

Pretty good advice all round for you Tyler but the above is true in so many cases - me too, is all I can say. The grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. And did you want the new role or the $$ or both?

The most competent and/re the most qualified isn't always the winner. The chemistry between the applicant and the decision maker(s) will influence. I used to think attitude/ability and desire were the key points. I added chemistry (how your face fits) to it.

As Julia says - ask what was/were the gap(s). But don't let emotion steer you to a rash decision.

Good luck.

Thanks mate. I am trying not to make a rash decision (last year, a person resigned as soon as they found out they didn't get it). However, believe it or not, the 'roles' although technically different, involve doing the same things in reality. If I had gotten it, I would not be doing anything different, and that is part of what hurts - that someone will get paid more than me to do the same job when they have less experience/skill.

And you're right, the most competent/qualified isn't always the winner - but it sure sucks to be that competent/qualified person

 

[springhill]

+1 - Julia nailed it.

It's most likely your pride that's been hurt. Have a chat to whom you answer to - see where you can improve and go from there. There is nothing wrong with asking for more $$$ as long as you can justify it - don't go brazenly in and demand it.

Culture is huge - you can chase the $$$ but you could end up working further from home with duds - that wouldn't be the best.

I also wouldn't recommend quitting without another job lined up. You may be out in the cold...:1zhelp:

That is the best advice of all replies. There is nothing wrong with being pro-active and asking why you were looked over, and what you can do to improve. As long as you enter the conversation in a manner of 'I am here to learn how to improve myself and my skill sets?' not simply 'Why didn't i get the job?'.

As an employer willingness to learn and willingness to adapt would be one of the key characteristics I would look for in a great employee, and if approached in the right way it is something I would keep in the back of my mind for next time.

Sounds like you need a tension release mate, go take it out on a punching bag, fire a gun (safely and in a licenced way of course!), get drunk and shoot some pool with mates or go down the cricket nets and hurl that angry red ball at those stumps for a while (draw the guys face who got the promotion ahead of you on the stumps if you need to!)

 

[StumpyPhantom]

Agree with Julia and JTLP posts, Tyler. Not sure about going off with a gun or getting drunk though.

I'm an employer, so I'm going to try some of that perspective here. The last promotion I gave, this person was head and shoulders above the rest. They're the easy ones to give, and there's no fine distinctions to be made, and the bruised egos don't last long but should be encouraged to emulate No.1.

If the extra money didn't really involve extra or more important work, then that suggests to me a heavily unionised or hierarchical and large organisation (like the public service) where there is an unstated understanding about pecking order/seniority etc. The promotion processes in these places, while they tend to be big on procedure, natural justice etc. are ironically the reverse in that it allows them to play 'favorites'.

Having been in that situation previously as an employee (but never liked it), I now realise there is a 'game' to be played, and it's less to do with how good technically you are at your job or how hard you work. In fact, the better you are at these things, the more the others want to 'peer' with you or 'boss' you because they know how to play the game and how to get credit for these things for themselves.

So if I've picked this right (and I sensed this for myself when I was in this situation 15 years ago), then you might come to the conclusion that you don't have a long-term future in that organisation if you haven't got it in you to play the game. You may be good for 1 or 2 promotions over the next 5-10 years, but take a good look at the boss man - the position you would like to be in the 10 years leading to retirement. If you can't see it in you to be like him, then workplace cultures don't change overnight and probably not much over a decade either, depending on how big it is. If you think GFC2 is going to sweep it aside, then the culture is an ever moving feast.

So have a good long think about the sort of person/worker you (in a long term sense) and try and find an organisational culture that will suit you for the long term. I've read your posts and you're a pretty motivated fellow so find a place where you're not swimming against the tide.

But take your time. I'm guessing your age but I reckon you have at least 3 decades left in the workforce. Have a 'practice run' in your current job at putting on the work personality that you think will get you the promotion (I'm assuming here you won't have to sleep with anybody). After all, the person we are at work is usualy different from the person at home. All the while, understand your long-term personality and keep looking for the best fit organisation, and when you get there you will be mightily surprised how easy it will be to climb the corporate ladder.

All the best!

 

[tech/a]

In general terms

Find ways to become a true asset to your employer.
If your a value adding employee you'll be secure
In your job and you'll be payed well.
Don't be afraid ( once your value add) to ask for and
Secure fair pay. Perhaps with a performance bonus.

But remember
When times get tough for your employer the top is cut before the
Bottom.

 

[Tyler Durden]

Agree with Julia and JTLP posts, Tyler. Not sure about going off with a gun or getting drunk though.

I'm an employer, so I'm going to try some of that perspective here. The last promotion I gave, this person was head and shoulders above the rest. They're the easy ones to give, and there's no fine distinctions to be made, and the bruised egos don't last long but should be encouraged to emulate No.1.

If the extra money didn't really involve extra or more important work, then that suggests to me a heavily unionised or hierarchical and large organisation (like the public service) where there is an unstated understanding about pecking order/seniority etc. The promotion processes in these places, while they tend to be big on procedure, natural justice etc. are ironically the reverse in that it allows them to play 'favorites'.

Having been in that situation previously as an employee (but never liked it), I now realise there is a 'game' to be played, and it's less to do with how good technically you are at your job or how hard you work. In fact, the better you are at these things, the more the others want to 'peer' with you or 'boss' you because they know how to play the game and how to get credit for these things for themselves.

So if I've picked this right (and I sensed this for myself when I was in this situation 15 years ago), then you might come to the conclusion that you don't have a long-term future in that organisation if you haven't got it in you to play the game. You may be good for 1 or 2 promotions over the next 5-10 years, but take a good look at the boss man - the position you would like to be in the 10 years leading to retirement. If you can't see it in you to be like him, then workplace cultures don't change overnight and probably not much over a decade either, depending on how big it is. If you think GFC2 is going to sweep it aside, then the culture is an ever moving feast.

So have a good long think about the sort of person/worker you (in a long term sense) and try and find an organisational culture that will suit you for the long term. I've read your posts and you're a pretty motivated fellow so find a place where you're not swimming against the tide.

But take your time. I'm guessing your age but I reckon you have at least 3 decades left in the workforce. Have a 'practice run' in your current job at putting on the work personality that you think will get you the promotion (I'm assuming here you won't have to sleep with anybody). After all, the person we are at work is usualy different from the person at home. All the while, understand your long-term personality and keep looking for the best fit organisation, and when you get there you will be mightily surprised how easy it will be to climb the corporate ladder.

All the best!

---------------------------------------

Bingo on the bold! Geez, you don't happen to be a mind reader, do you?

Thanks so much for your advice, it really put a smile on my face to read so much insight. I think you are right, in that I have to look long term to see what suits me.

 

[StumpyPhantom]

Thanks so much for your advice, it really put a smile on my face to read so much insight. I think you are right, in that I have to look long term to see what suits me.

No probs Tyler. You strike me as keen to learn, so you're gonna make it. It's just that learning this 'emotional intelligence' caper is really hard stuff. Google it to get a feel for the concept, but the smartest guys in the room (and I'm not one of them) usually have the lowest emotional intelligence, and don't get very far in life.

 

[Smurf1976]

The promotion processes in these places, while they tend to be big on procedure, natural justice etc. are ironically the reverse in that it allows them to play 'favorites'.

I've spent my entire working life to date working for large organisations, observations as follows.

1. Actual work output is very unevenly distributed amongst employees. In rough terms, it's about a 3:1 ratio between the most productive versus the least.

2. Reason for the above comes down almost entirely to individual attitudes. That is, there is basically nothing to prevent anyone from choosing to be the "1" in terms of output. But some will be a "3" of their own accord, even though there is zero direct reward for doing so.

So far as promotions are concerned, it really comes down to what the objective is? Does the manager want to promote the most effective person so as to get the job done?

Do they want to promote the least effective person to a non-job simply because doing so gets them out of the way (that is, it creates a vacancy in their former (real job) role which can then be filled with someone who actually works)? Even though this approach leaves a dud employee on the payroll, this can often be the path of least resistance in terms of the line manager dealing with senior management.

Do they want someone who makes their own job easier (which doesn't necessarily mean promoting someone who is highly productive)? In that case, the job goes to a "yes man" regardless of actual abilities or knowledge.

Is promotion seen as a reward for something already done? It could be the person who is a "3" or it could be for some other reason. If that's the case, then there's minimal chance of anyone else getting the job.

Once that decision is made, an individual's name usually comes immediately to mind who fits the preferred characteristics. After that, it's just a matter of wording the position description and interview questions to suit the preferred candidate and the rest becomes a formality.

Whenever I've had a slap in the face, be it work or otherwise, I've ultimately concluded that getting angry is pointless. It's more useful to work out why you weren't promoted, even if you have to swallow your pride in the process.

 

[StumpyPhantom]

No doubt there are some large organisations with a different culture. But the above has been my observation, and there's not as much difference between private versus public service as you might expect. Once the business reaches a certain size, senior management can't possibly know what everyone is really doing. that's when the games begin...

Agree with everything you've said, Smurf1976 - except for the above. What you've said describes a big public sector organisation down to a tee.

I suppose this may also apply to a big private sector organisation, but when each employee is responsible for bringing in money from a client and making that client happy, there's nowhere to hide.

And even if you're smart and good with clients, but you're such a jerk and a bully that you make life unbearable for the others around you who also have to bring in revenue, then you have to throw someone overboard so that the everyone else on the boat gets to live.

When it's this frantically focused on the bottom line and the clients who give you the top line revenue, no one has time for interviews, job selection, scribes, appeals.

 

[Smurf1976]

Agree with everything you've said, Smurf1976 - except for the above. What you've said describes a big public sector organisation down to a tee.

I suppose this may also apply to a big private sector organisation, but when each employee is responsible for bringing in money from a client and making that client happy, there's nowhere to hide.

I was thinking specifically of manufacturing and similar industries.

There are, or at least were, people who literally did go to sleep on the job and it wasn't uncommon. That plus all sorts of other work avoiding tactics too. How anyone can manage to sleep near a coal conveyor (dusty), paper machine (hot, noisy) etc is beyond me but it's certainly not unknown in practice.

I'm thinking in terms of smelters, paper mills, ship yards and the like where you have people everywhere, and lots of people doing essentially the same task. It's not overly difficult for one person to "look busy" and effectively pass their work onto the rest of the team. It breeds resentment from other workers for obvious reasons, but management then has the difficulty of working out who is the real cause of trouble since it's usually only one or two that actually speak out. Half the time, they end up shooting the messenger.

 

[sptrawler]

I was thinking specifically of manufacturing and similar industries.

There are, or at least were, people who literally did go to sleep on the job and it wasn't uncommon. That plus all sorts of other work avoiding tactics too. How anyone can manage to sleep near a coal conveyor (dusty), paper machine (hot, noisy) etc is beyond me but it's certainly not unknown in practice.

I'm thinking in terms of smelters, paper mills and the like (and especially ship yards) where you have people everywhere, and lots of people doing essentially the same task. It's not overly difficult for one person to "look busy" and effectively pass their work onto the rest of the team. It breeds resentment from other workers for obvious reasons, but management then has the difficulty of working out who is the real cause of trouble since it's usually only one or two that actually speak out. Half the time, they end up shooting the messenger.

Also workers are employed for reasons unbeknown, who have limited ability.
The group tends to be protective and shelter the worker, rather than let the workers incompetence be exposed.

 

[Julia]

. I've read your posts and you're a pretty motivated fellow so find a place where you're not swimming against the tide.

Agree. Tyler you come across on this forum as imaginative and curious, often thinking outside conventional barriers. I'm just wondering if this could make you somewhat of a threat to less capable people in the workplace?

Do they want to promote the least effective person to a non-job simply because doing so gets them out of the way (that is, it creates a vacancy in their former (real job) role which can then be filled with someone who actually works)? Even though this approach leaves a dud employee on the payroll, this can often be the path of least resistance in terms of the line manager dealing with senior management.

Important point and more common than we'd like to imagine.

Whenever I've had a slap in the face, be it work or otherwise, I've ultimately concluded that getting angry is pointless. It's more useful to work out why you weren't promoted, even if you have to swallow your pride in the process.

Yes. Imo this is essential in the process of learning how to negotiate the corporate (or public service/whatever) ladder. There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking your boss to explain the reasons for your not getting the promotion, especially if you phrase the request politely and in terms of wanting to know how you can improve your performance. Sometimes you have to eat a bit of humble pie to learn how you come across to others.

You may be offered what you instinctively know is a fob-off in response. That will be clear even from the attitude, tone and body language of the person you're asking.
But you may also acquire some additional understanding which will considerably aid your career path into the future.

Hope you'll keep us posted.