Capital Gains Tax (CGT) on ETFs

[grah33]

what do i do now? (over this ...) i can't fill it in so that it makes sense.​

anyone get this? online chat is shut for weekend. maybe a little example from someone (really simple)​

​

Capital gains tax schedule​

As you've advised your total current year capital gain or loss is more than $10,000, you must complete the Capital gains tax schedule. Enter amounts in the relevant fields below.

Capital gains tax schedule​

As you've advised your total current year capital gain or loss is more than $10,000, you must complete the Capital gains tax schedule. Enter amounts in the relevant fields below.

Net capital gain​

Description	Capital gain	Capital loss/discount
Current year capital gains and losses	$0.00	$0.00	Press enter to expand or collapse details Press enter to expand or collapse details
Capital losses applied		$0.00	Press enter to expand or collapse details Press enter to expand or collapse details
Unapplied net capital losses carried forward		$0.00	Press enter to expand or collapse details Press enter to expand or collapse details
CGT discount		$0.00	Press enter to expand or collapse details Press enter to expand or collapse details
CGT concessions for small business		$0.00	https://onlineservices.ato.gov.au/Tax/MyTax/MyTax2021Home.aspx#

 

[qldfrog]

i wouldn't bet on it. they are merciless when it comes to chasing down tax dollars when you have underpaid. many years ago i was hounded for some trivial amount ($63 from memory) because i had accidentally got the franked vs unfranked portions slightly wrong for one of my dividends (this was in the days before pre-fill). though TBF they did classify it as an honest mistake and didn't charge any penalty beyond the $63 i had underpaid.

yet when they get it wrong (in a different year they overcharged me by about $700 when they applied 30% withholding tax to an unfranked dividend, when Singapore has a bilateral tax treaty with Aust which means the withholding tax should be 15%) they filibustered and wasted hours of my time on the phone before finally admitting they were wrong and correcting the bill. even if it had been $7 i still would've hassled them about it and relentlessly complained until they fixed it. not a single cent more for the tax office than they're entitled to.

moral of the story. you can't assume the entire distribution is dividend. it may not be. you have to wait for the tax statement from the ETF to arrive and double check that the numbers (whether you pre-fill or manually enter) match up. if you get it even slightly wrong (in your favour), expect to be pursued about it and they might not be so lenient these days with the budget the way it is, they do have the discretion to apply a penalty in such cases.

With ato, even if you are right, you are wrong..
They went after me as i had put an income in the wrong column and charged me for that but refused to correct the fact that that mistake of me was actually in their favour .so they bulked so much i ended up giving up..was only 13$ or so.
They spend hours of PS salaries to move less than 100 bucks from one column to another then realised their review would end up costing the ato..so forget the eofy bonus...and fough as mad to prevent me from getting my extra 30$ or so extra refund.. they won as i gave up but i made sure i got far more than my 30$ of salary time from them...
I have now the utter disrespect for the ato and their employees.noone is forced to work there or act as the arrogant dicks they were.so i see them in the same way as i see SS and concentration camp guards...to a lesser degree, agent of evil and arrogant human scums...
Sorry if you work/ed for the ATO....

 

[qldfrog]

what do i do now? (over this ...) i can't fill it in so that it makes sense.​

anyone get this? online chat is shut for weekend. maybe a little example from someone (really simple)​

​

Capital gains tax schedule​

As you've advised your total current year capital gain or loss is more than $10,000, you must complete the Capital gains tax schedule. Enter amounts in the relevant fields below.

Capital gains tax schedule​

As you've advised your total current year capital gain or loss is more than $10,000, you must complete the Capital gains tax schedule. Enter amounts in the relevant fields below.

Net capital gain​

Description	Capital gain	Capital loss/discount
Current year capital gains and losses	$0.00	$0.00	Press enter to expand or collapse details Press enter to expand or collapse details
Capital losses applied		$0.00	Press enter to expand or collapse details Press enter to expand or collapse details
Unapplied net capital losses carried forward		$0.00	Press enter to expand or collapse details Press enter to expand or collapse details
CGT discount		$0.00	Press enter to expand or collapse details Press enter to expand or collapse details
CGT concessions for small business		$0.00	https://onlineservices.ato.gov.au/Tax/MyTax/MyTax2021Home.aspx#

I really think you need an accountant help..some of your CGT questions indicate you need to ga8n more knowledge.
Cgt is something you should be able to fill accurently if you do proper homework
The ato will force you to fill returns by a time you may not have access to the tax return from trusts but otherwise the rest you should be able to fill yourselves

 

[qldfrog]

Real question is WTF do we even have to fill individual tax returns the ato has full access to dividends ,trust returns and even share trades
every cent moving they control, so is this tax return supposedly to let us have a fake sense of freedom and a pretext to penalties if you fail, plus keeping 10's thousand PS jobs?
A very serious question why do we have to fill tax return considering the fill control they have

 

[Belli]

Because the onus is placed on the tax payer under a self-assessment regime to get it right. Removing that places the onus on a Government organisation. Big no no.

Self-assessment and the taxpayer | Australian Taxation Office

Find out how the self-assessment system works and what to do if you need to correct an error.

www.ato.gov.au

Remember with the Robodebt fiasco it was the claimants who initially had to prove the Government was wrong in raising a debt against them? Extend that concept to the ATO and mull over the possible ramifications if it misses capturing data or the data is erroneous. Nice blame games and High Court ahead.

 

[Sharkman]

I have now the utter disrespect for the ato and their employees.noone is forced to work there or act as the arrogant dicks they were.

i agree, i remember they were quite condescending when i called up to complain about the overcharge. they repeatedly kept telling me, as you are no longer a resident of Australia, a withholding tax is payable on these dividends and that is what this amount is for... yes, *i* know what withholding tax is, do *you* know what a bilateral tax treaty is? spent at least 2 hours on the phone trying to get that message across to them and was forwarded on to about 3 or 4 different people before finally getting put thru to someone who knew what the rules were.

Real question is WTF do we even have to fill individual tax returns the ato has full access to dividends ,trust returns and even share trades
every cent moving they control, so is this tax return supposedly to let us have a fake sense of freedom and a pretext to penalties if you fail, plus keeping 10's thousand PS jobs?
A very serious question why do we have to fill tax return considering the fill control they have

i don't mind it being done this way, i'm ok with them pre-filling without auto-submit, at least i can then scrutinise it line by line in case they get something wrong. i wouldn't put it past them to deliberately get it wrong (in their favour of course) in case the taxpayer is not aware of the rules and overlooks it. i suspect that may well have been the case with my withholding tax episode, as it was only either a year or two after i moved overseas and withholding tax rules are not something a lot of people know about (a few of my colleagues at the time didn't), so maybe they tried to pull that stunt just in case i didn't know the withholding tax rules and let it slide.

 

[rnr]

Real question is WTF do we even have to fill individual tax returns the ato has full access to dividends ,trust returns and even share trades
every cent moving they control, so is this tax return supposedly to let us have a fake sense of freedom and a pretext to penalties if you fail, plus keeping 10's thousand PS jobs?
A very serious question why do we have to fill tax return considering the fill control they have

Hi @qidfrog,

I would certainly agree that the ATO has details of all dividends & trust distributions paid during a financial year, however I would doubt that they would collect data on every share trade that has taken place during a financial year (and happy to be proven wrong), although they could well request, from the ASX, a sample of say 1 or x million trades taken during a financial year.
Without the input from the Taxpayer when completing their Tax Return how would the ATO know whether the Taxpayer is a trader or investor.

Cheers, Rob

 

[qldfrog]

Hi @qidfrog,

I would certainly agree that the ATO has details of all dividends & trust distributions paid during a financial year, however I would doubt that they would collect data on every share trade that has taken place during a financial year (and happy to be proven wrong), although they could well request, from the ASX, a sample of say 1 or x million trades taken during a financial year.
Without the input from the Taxpayer when completing their Tax Return how would the ATO know whether the Taxpayer is a trader or investor.

Cheers, Rob

well, they actually decide, you pretend to do the choice but they can agree or no at will so...
it would not take long to put a quantitative threshold and stick to it.would be nice not to depend on their wimp actually:
more than xx trades a year you are a trader..and that's it
For the vast amount of people, most do nothing but click ok on prefill, and for people here, sure we are a bit more complex but ATO could do CGT based on your best outcome or even ask:
minimize tax this year or FIFO for CGT, or just stick to a given way...
ATO rulings are just a pretext to screw the small fish and allow the whales not to pay tax thru fiscal experts
ATO can change rules at will, even after the facts
But when most people in Oz agree to see their most basic rights to go down the drain without even a protest, what hope do I have?

Australia 2021 Convict mentality forever, and sorry but
Like it or...unable to leave it..

 

[Sharkman]

Without the input from the Taxpayer when completing their Tax Return how would the ATO know whether the Taxpayer is a trader or investor.

as far as i'm aware everyone starts as an investor by default, if you want to be reclassified as a trader you have to apply for it and provide proof that you are trading as a primary business activity, they will then assess your evidence and process it accordingly, ie. they should already know whether you are a trader or investor without having to ask.

wrote a bit about it here:

[Newbie Question]

Hi Everyone, Hope everyone is doing well. I have a question. If I buy 100 shares of BHP at $30, then I buy another 100 BHP shares for $32. Then I sell 100 shares at $34, how is profit calculated? Which 100 BHP shares have been sold? Thank you

www.aussiestockforums.com

however i don't have first hand experience of this process as i prefer to remain an investor, happy to be corrected if that's wrong - always keen to get a better understanding of the rules to help manage my holdings the right way.

 

[Belli]

Interesting stuff. The ATO, despite a lot of views to the contrary, don't make the taxation laws. It administers them. So with a lot of administration there is going to be various views on the interpretation of the law and administrative stuff can be challenged.

I'd hate to print the actual tax laws now. It would likely extend to a column a kilometer high or more so I am not surprised if the grunts don't know every twist and turn involved. It can get to a stage where the ATO will fund test cases in courts to obtain a legal determination.

A couple of sites just for interest. If someone is bored out of their mind, they can browse through them:

https://www.ato.gov.au/law/#Law

WorldLII - Categories - Countries - Australia - By Subject - Taxation, Revenue & Customs - Courts and Caselaw

Legal directory and search engine - legislation, case-law, journals, law reform, by country and subject.

www.worldlii.org

As for keeping records, despite the ATO having a lot of the data, this applies:

 

[mark_au]

well i don't seem to be seeing any distribution payment in my online tax coming up , so I think i didn't get any for any of my etfs. nor is it showing up on my cmc end of year statement. might just be the usual simple calculation for capital gain/loss for me when doing my etfs.

Sharesight is a very good online portfolio tracking tool , they have recently improved their ETF distribution reporting with a number of entities being automatically reconciled

Australian ETF distribution components now available for FY20/21 | Sharesight Blog

Sharesight now has updated ETF distribution component information for the FY20/21 Australian tax year for the majority of ETFs in Australia.

www.sharesight.com

 

[Belli]

I don't use sharesight but have one observation. As VAS and VGS made the respective annual tax statements available on 2 August, if I did use sharesight, why would I bother waiting an additional month for it to update the data? My personal return and that for the SMSF were done and dusted the same day the annual tax statements were available.

Sharesight is only a tabulator I understand. It isn't an acceptable source document from the perspective of either the ATO or major accounting firms. And merely because the ATO can autofill doesn't mean that data is correct.

The ETF provider isn't putting this at the bottom of the statements just for fun.

It means you hold those annual statements until if or when you sell the ETF due to AMIT cost-base adjustments.

 

[grah33]

feel like my tax agent messing with me. really pushing for me to put cfds under business reporting, so costs more. is there a place to go if i need to, if i'm getting messed around with? will avoid of course if possible

i think it's better to do your own . and for those who have trouble with crypto, use koinly . they get your statement files and compile a crypto report for you or your agent. my calculations were all correct anyway

 

[KevinBB]

@grah33 You could always read this, and make up your own mind what to do.
Link to: ATO Ruling for CFDs.

KH