Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Bedford, Dimitri, McIntyre, etc. Clowns?

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MichaelD said:
Not wanting to rain on anyone's parade, but isn't the market trying to tell you something pretty important here?
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I know, but I refuse to ever give up - the market OWES me and I WILL make it pay.

Thanks Madgodan for the book suggestions :)

Sheldon Natenberg "Option Volatility and Pricing"
• Lawrence McMilan “Options as a Strategic Investment”
• Charles Cottle “Coulda Woulda Shoulda”
• Stuart Johnston "Trading Options To Win"

I have some reading to do...

BTW I'm happy to say that if tax were ever an issue (if I were actually profitable) it wouldn't bother me since I am in another country where income tax is very low!
 
Realist said:
Be carefull what you wish for.

You may not make money by shorting either.

It may just roll along doing sweet f'all for quite a few years.
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As long as there's some volatility. My best results on paper have been between 2001-2003, which were pretty 'meh' years. 58% of my live trades have been short.
 
Hopeful said:
I know, but I refuse to ever give up - the market OWES me and I WILL make it pay.
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I read a quote the other day (can't remember where, may have been these forums)... went something like, if people doubt you and you refuse to give up, then you are already half way there.

Whilst on quotes, I also just read this which reminded me of Realist:

Those who say it cannot be done ought not to interrupt those who are doing it.

Anyway, this time though, make sure you learn from your mistakes. What happened that caused you to lose the last few times? A different instrument will unlikely improve your results.
 
swingstar said:
A different instrument will unlikely improve your results.
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A more direct version of what I was getting at.

Hopeful, the market WILL reveal its workings to you in all instruments, but if unleverage share trading is not working, leveraged instruments will only increase the pain of learning.
 
Hi Hopeful

Bedford, Dimitri, McIntyre, etc all teach you their methods. However, its the mindset or the development of the 'character of a trader' that escapes the attention of most people.

Universities, Tafe, apprenticeships, the military, families, class and cultures etc all reproduce according to their kind by method and full emersion in the role which they do very well. Also most members of any group 'know' their own kind and if something about them or their method is 'not quite right'
However, exceptions are often made for those who look and act like they are willing and able to 'fit in'

For a would be trader this means if you take one of these courses, show respect for your teacher, their method and the role and character of a trader. Otherwise you really will be wasting your time and money as well as eroding your confidence.

Cheers
Happytrader
 
Hopeful said:
Sheldon Natenberg "Option Volatility and Pricing"
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I've just finished reading this and found it very good. It's not hard to read, but has all the maths in the back if you're really interested.

I wish the US would get up-to-date though and use decimal prices rather than those damned fractions. It's a wonder they don't still use shillings and guineas as well! :D

GP
 
Hopeful said:
I know, but I refuse to ever give up - the market OWES me and I WILL make it pay.

Thanks Madgodan for the book suggestions :)

Sheldon Natenberg "Option Volatility and Pricing"
• Lawrence McMilan “Options as a Strategic Investment”
• Charles Cottle “Coulda Woulda Shoulda”
• Stuart Johnston "Trading Options To Win"

I have some reading to do...

BTW I'm happy to say that if tax were ever an issue (if I were actually profitable) it wouldn't bother me since I am in another country where income tax is very low!
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Connichiwa Hopeful,


Good luck with the readings. By the way, if you’re totally new to options, you may find it easier to start with Bower and work through the others – Natenberg is really good on the “Greeks”, option models, and the statistical background underpinning option theory, while McMilan is strong on Strategies as is Cottle (which is very good for morphing approaches).

Just a couple of points to note. Firstly, be very very careful using options in the real market, these are complex leveraged instruments, and while the profits are magnified, so are the losses. Just keep this in mind, won’t you?

Secondly, MichaelD makes a very good point about trading. If you can’t trade effectively with shares, it’s significantly harder using leveraged instruments. You really need to know what you are doing on several levels. If you’re using straight options for directional trades you have to get the “trifecta” of direction, magnitude, and time right sufficiently to make profits. This is actually much harder than it looks. Throw in volatility, theta decay and delta, let alone the other “Greeks”, and you have quite a challenge to contend with.

Your comment “I know, but I refuse to ever give up - the market OWES me and I WILL make it pay” sends off alarm bells. Your comment certainly flags the possibility that you may have some emotional damage from your past trading experience. This is not a good foundation to commence a career in options trading from. In fact, emotions such as this are the enemy of the trader.

Patience is a prerequisite. You need to be able to be almost “Zen” about the whole thing, be “in the moment”, and flexible in your thinking – pretty much dispassionate. I strongly suggest you consider reading Mark Douglas’ books in addition to the options texts, especially “Trading in the Zone”, this will hopefully help you not to impose your emotional view on the market, and help you to just “see” the market.

So, my standard comment for new options traders is firstly study all you can, try to find veteran options traders to learn from, paper trade (honestly, no cheating) to test your theories and strategies, and then graduate slowly with very small positions (suggest single contracts).

This usually requires around 12 months to get a sufficient grounding before starting to trade real capital. Of course this varies, a full timer may do it in 6 under months, but most people need to learn not only the theory, but the practice (how to deal with market makers, how to understand volatility in reality for example).

Options trading really needs to be allied with good analysis (usually technical, but good long term players can profit very well from sound fundamental analysis), as well as a sound grasp of psychological discipline, a solid grounding in strategy approaches, and a robust system.

Core message – do the due diligence in all areas, learn as much as you can, and do not be under any false impression that this is easy. It isn’t. It is probably one of the hardest things you will do in your life.

Good luck!


Regards


Magdoran

P.S. Just wondering, are you an Australian expat, or a Japanese local?
 
Wow, that was boring!!

Now has anyone got some opinions off Louise Bedford? I just bought one of her books which i am finding very informative so far.

Cheers Stink
 
stink said:
Wow, that was boring!!

Now has anyone got some opinions off Louise Bedford? I just bought one of her books which i am finding very informative so far.

Cheers Stink
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Spoken like the true expert that you are... thanks for your learned contribution.
 
Magdoran said:
Spoken like the true expert that you are... thanks for your learned contribution.
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Are you seriously having a go? :eek:

Mate if you go back to what the original poster was asking.??

No, I am not any type of expert on trading or taxation for that matter which is why i didnt contribute to what i see as being your pointless attempt to change someones opinions.

Just wanted an opinion on the author nothing more, so climb back in mate and pull the lid shut ok.

Stink
 
Stink

Now has anyone got some opinions off Louise Bedford? I just bought one of her books which i am finding very informative so far.
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A scrummy looking peanut.

jog on
d998
 
stink said:
Are you seriously having a go? :eek:

Mate if you go back to what the original poster was asking.??

No, I am not any type of expert on trading or taxation for that matter which is why i didnt contribute to what i see as being your pointless attempt to change someones opinions.

Just wanted an opinion on the author nothing more, so climb back in mate and pull the lid shut ok.

Stink
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Stink,


While I might seem pedantic on some issues like investment, taxation, options, etc, it is with good intentions for all the readers that I contribute. Now Stink while I don’t usually get involved in petty exchanges, I’ll make a one time exception for you...

What kind of response do you expect from someone when you traduce their comment by stating “Wow, that was boring!!”. If you insult someone, are you really surprised that they might take exception to it?

How do you think you would feel after replying on topic (read the second post in this thread), and taking the time to respond to the original posters comment in context when someone like you breezes in making a derogatory comment like you?

You then add insult to injury criticising my reluctant clarification of a misleading statement about taxation issues. Granted this was off topic, but I was not the person who sidetracked the comments – I responded to what I see as a serious topic where investors/traders could have been mislead which could have had serious negative financial implications. It seems you do not share my concern for others well being, do you?

I consider it a civic duty to ensure people are not misled in the market, and make no apology for it.

Stink, if you “Just wanted an opinion on the author nothing more” then why make the derogatory opening comment about my post? How dare you tell me to “climb back in mate and pull the lid shut” when you are the root cause of this little “tete-a-tete”. It is people like you that are a drag on sites like this.

You can either do the honourable thing and recognise that you overstepped the mark, or you can continue to be belligerent. Your choice. Your response will be a measure of your mettle.


Magdoran
 
Magdoran said:
Stink,


While I might seem pedantic on some issues like investment, taxation, options, etc, it is with good intentions for all the readers that I contribute. Now Stink while I don’t usually get involved in petty exchanges, I’ll make a one time exception for you...

What kind of response do you expect from someone when you traduce their comment by stating “Wow, that was boring!!”. If you insult someone, are you really surprised that they might take exception to it?

All i can say is "OH MY GOD", mate if you take offence to that then you have some serious issues. Firstly i respect your obviously well educated view on tax etc but i hate to break this to you "ITS BORING" important yes but its boring. It was not my intention to offend you or anyone else, just a bit of a joke ok relax. I did the same thing and snapped at tech/a, lucky he's a big boy. I dont believe you actually wrote this but anyway, sorry ;)

How do you think you would feel after replying on topic (read the second post in this thread), and taking the time to respond to the original posters comment in context when someone like you breezes in making a derogatory comment like you?
Not worth replying to, as above sorry you took it that way!

You then add insult to injury criticising my reluctant clarification of a misleading statement about taxation issues. Granted this was off topic, but I was not the person who sidetracked the comments – I responded to what I see as a serious topic where investors/traders could have been mislead which could have had serious negative financial implications. It seems you do not share my concern for others well being, do you?

Rubbish, i dont even now what your on about here? I respect the fact that you spoke up about the subject, i applaud you for it.

I consider it a civic duty to ensure people are not misled in the market, and make no apology for it.

As Above!

Stink, if you “Just wanted an opinion on the author nothing more” then why make the derogatory opening comment about my post? How dare you tell me to “climb back in mate and pull the lid shut” when you are the root cause of this little “tete-a-tete”. It is people like you that are a drag on sites like this.

ROFL this is just, you know what it is! Its a what the! Seriously mate. People like me? hmmm what did i do again. Who's offending who here?

You can either do the honourable thing and recognise that you overstepped the mark, or you can continue to be belligerent. Your choice. Your response will be a measure of your mettle.

Measured by Whom? You?


Magdoran
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Lets just say then, if your that upset. You stay out of my posts, unless you want to give me taxation advice and i wont reply to yours at all for fear of offending you. OK!

Again sorry, i hope your not crying.

Now i will do the honourable thing and remove myself from any further "Tete-a-tete" with you.

Shees!!!
 
Thank-you Stink,


Well I’m glad to see you didn’t adopt a belligerent path and responded with a degree of conciliation which is to be commended, so I accept your apology (it is the spirit which counts over the qualifications).

Thank-you for applauding my stance too, much appreciated, I’m glad to see you have a broader perspective.


Regards


Magdoran
 
Good to see you folks kissed and made up.

Yes, tax is extremly boring, yet its the only certainty besides death (confucious say). :D
 
Julia said:
Wow, that was rude!!

Julia
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If you read the conversation that is just above your eyes, you would see that my intention was not to be rude. I have explained myself and Magdoran has accepted that so thats the end of it.

Are you seeking some attention? Whats your point to saying that :confused:

Stink
 
Magdoran said:
Your comment “I know, but I refuse to ever give up - the market OWES me and I WILL make it pay” sends off alarm bells.
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A very good point. On the one hand, much kudos for having perserverence. If you keep doing the right thing in the market, eventually it pays off. Gentle brickbats per Magdoran's comments - the market owes nothing to anybody. The market is ALWAYS right.
 
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