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Now if Bolton's actions are found to be fraudulent, and a court rules that reasonable person would have known at the time that his actions would be fraudulent, then you are in fact a knowing party to fraud - and it is no longer arms length.
I do wonder how a judge could determine what a reasonable person would do; and whether Bolton's actions in any way constituted anything illegal. His first purchase was certainly entirely legitimate (although not necessarily wise) Is it illegal to purchase shares in a company to gain a controlling hand to determine its future? Which is really all that Bolton is presumed to have done.
Let's simplify it.
You PAY someone to take a liability off your hands.
Does this sound to a reasonable person to be a normal off-market share transaction?
Let's simplify it.
You PAY someone to take a liability off your hands.
Does this sound to a reasonable person to be a normal off-market share transaction?
Let's simplify it.
You PAY someone to take a liability off your hands.
Does this sound to a reasonable person to be a normal off-market share transaction?
Umm, yes?
I wouldn't pay somebody to take an asset of my hands but a liability I might.
Isn't that the point? The shares were originally valued at $3, now valued at < $2... So what's wrong?
Let's simplify it.
You PAY someone to take a liability off your hands.
Does this sound to a reasonable person to be a normal off-market share transaction?
Yes, given the situation with these securities. If they were able to be traded on the ASX at a negative price (ie pay someone to take shares) they would be. Consider that if after the next payment is made the shares will trade at 60c (for example) then paying someone 40c before the installment is due to take the securities off your hands would be fair.
Wait, so they're worth $2? You just sold an asset then. Can't have it both ways.
Imagine doing this:
Buy a Ferrari, and encumber it with a loan.
Let it depreciate so that the market value of the car is less than the amount owing
Pay your friend to take it off you legally for $1 - make sure you pay your RTA transfer fees legally.
Your friend then makes no payments on the loan.
As the loan was secured against the car, which you no longer own, the loan company has nothing on you. Your friend loses the car, but that's okay, he only paid $1 for it, and even received a payment from you to take the car.
Can you imagine getting up before a judge and swearing on the bible or the Aussie flag, that you thought what you did was both legal and ethical? Man you have a twisted sense of right and wrong.
And let me guess - we're going to get back to "You can't buy a $500,000 loan on a ferrari for $500 and a click of a mouse button" argument. While that is less than ideal, two wrongs still don't make a right in my eyes.
If I sold or paid somebody to take the ferrari then I still owe the finance company. Or if the finance company actually owns the ferrari then I can't sell it without their permission... So I don't think the example is the same.
In the BCSCA case we have something like the following:
Let's says BCSCA shares are now worth $1.50
Person A owns 50,000 shares. They need to come up with $100,000 to keep the shares which they don't have, so the shares are a liability.
They do have $25,000. So they can give Person B $25,000 plus the 50,000 shares.
Person B now has 50,000 shares and owes $100,000. He pays $100,000 and for the price of $75,000 has 50,000 shares worth $75,000.
So what's wrong with that?
...I'm saying yes, other people are saying no.
But Justice Robson said the court "guards jealously" the rights of citizens who come before it to be heard.
"Mr Sifris contends that Wonate seeks to be heard on behalf of mum-and-dad shareholders," he said.
"This court will not deny citizens that right."
There is nothing wrong with that.
But if you knew the other person didn't have $75,000, and had no intention of paying $75,000, and is just going to enjoy your $25,000 and skip the country, are you culpable?
My argument is yes.
Edit: BTW, I believe it is possible to get loans that have no recourse available, if you default.
...But if you knew the other person didn't have $75,000, and had no intention of paying $75,000, and is just going to enjoy your $25,000 and skip the country, are you culpable?...
But now the legal and ethical question comes down to it, that if you're going to do this, and you have, or reasonably should have an idea that the person is intending to default on the liability - even if they claim otherwise - are you responsible for partaking in that transaction?
I'm saying yes, other people are saying no.
Also, Brisconnections/Macquarie would have known the risks of selling partly paid shares to "mum & dad" investors, ie, they may not have the cash to pay the rest...
Gets more & more interesting, Bolton just WON the court case:
http://business.watoday.com.au/business/rebel-bolton-wins-briscon-claim-20090402-9kkn.html
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