At what point should you not expect Government welfare?

[sydboy007]

Preamble

I'd just like to start out by saying I grew up in a poverty line family. My dad had to leave school at the age of 14 after his dad died and he needed to work on the family farm to keep things running. He's also dyslexic so was never able to hold a steady job for most of life. My mum left school at age 15, once again because her family couldn't afford to support her any further through school, so out she went to work. My brother and I survived on hand me down clothes and cheap clothes from K-mart and Lowes. My dad did odd jobs, mum cleaned middle class families house for money. We scraped by. Luckily they were able to support me through university, reinforcing my belief that education isone of the best ways to escape poverty!

Question

At what point should a person or family not be entitled to Government assistance?

My position

I feel if you can afford to pay the rent, provide 3 home cooked meals a day for the family, buy clothes as requried from K-mart then you don't have the right to any Government money.

Australians seem to have stopped taking responsibility for their actions, and want to blame anyone else but themselves when life gets a bit tough.

Governments have pandered to the desire to blame someone else, or use vote buying transfer payments to make it look like they are doing something beneficial. The nanny state has to stop. People have to relearn how to stand on their own 2 feet, how to budget, how to not spend more than they earn, not tkae on more debt than they can afford.

I pay ~ 30K in tax each year, and I want it spend on more productive things like infrastructure and education (especially primary schools and TAFE), or just cut taxes and stop the churn!

Why do I feel this way

In the last year a record number of:

* Cars were bought;

* record levels of Australians had domestic and International holidays

Yet the media keeps reporting on how tough life is.

Mortgage rates at historically low levels - something like $600 a month less than when Howard lost office (for the avg home loan that's lower than practically any property value in a capital city)

Yet the Australian public is whinging about how hard it is to get by.

There's so much angst about electricity prices, yet a lot families think nothing about how much they're spending on mobile phones and internet access. Nearly half of Australian households have foxtel, yet life is SOOOOO hard.

My last electricity bill for a 3 adult share house was averaging just 7kwh / day - 617Kwh in total. What shocked me on the bill was that a single person avg was supposedly 943, and a 4 person was avg a whopping 1753. What are these households doing to be such energy hogs

Yet family tax benefits, child care rebates, private school funding, keeps on growing and growing.

So it's over to you. Please keep this discussion as fact based

 

[Julia]

You'll get no argument from me on your post, sydboy. We are breeding a nation of incompetent wusses, incapable of taking personal responsibility for anything.

 

[So_Cynical]

I pay ~ 30K in tax each year, and I want it spend on more productive things like infrastructure and education (especially primary schools and TAFE), or just cut taxes and stop the churn!

Why do I feel this way

30K in Tax hey, so you pull 6 figures and yet some how feel the need to whine about how your tax is spent. i got a tax bill for $1580 should i be complaining or feel bad about it? care how it is spent? feel the need to complain about it?

I shouldn't of posted...its just that when i see some wealth person complaining about pretty much anything, i get pissed off.

 

[McLovin]

30K in Tax hey, so you pull 6 figures and yet some how feel the need to whine about how your tax is spent. i got a tax bill for $1580 should i be complaining or feel bad about it? care how it is spent? feel the need to complain about it?

I shouldn't of posted...its just that when i see some wealth person complaining about pretty much anything, i get pissed off.

Why is someone less entitled to comment about how tax money is spent because they pay more tax?

I'm amazed at the middle class welfare dependency that John Howard introduced and how people now seem to take it as given that the government will give them something. More often than not they're holding one hand out waiting for their government handout while scolding "dole bludgers" and the like with the other.

 

[So_Cynical]

Why is someone less entitled to comment about how tax money is spent because they pay more tax?

Entitled? i don't think anyone with wealth is entitled to complain about anything to do with tax...pay it, STFU and be happy that you pay that much.

 

[McLovin]

Entitled? i don't think anyone with wealth is entitled to complain about anything to do with tax...pay it, STFU and be happy that you pay that much.

Well that's an internally hypocritical statement considering the salary and average wealth of parliamentarians.

It's my money and I've got a say in how it's spent, that's called democracy. It's not like either side does a fantastic job.

 

[sydboy007]

so cynical

I'll say we all have a right in deciding what our taxes pay for. I will also say I know what poverty is like as I lived it for the first 25 years of my life. I got out of poverty by studying hard, working 2 jobs thru uni, overcoming the many financial setbacks I've faced in my adult life, and taken responsibility for my actions.

I have no problem with helping people who truly need it. I wouldn't have the life I have if it wasn't for Govt welfare - but i don't see why someone who can afford more than the basics should get money from the Government, which means we all have to pay higher taxes. Stop the churn!

I just don't see any political party have the balls to say enough is enough, take on the special interests and cut deeply into this waste. We could all enjoy lower taxes, or a lot better infrastructure, education etc.

As for earning 6 figures, part of that is because I'm a shift worker. I'd love to get off it, but in my industry there's not too many jobs I'm qualified for that don't involve 24 hour shift work. The higher pay is only a partial offset to the health consequences, but I hope my frugalness will pay off within the next decade and I can get out of IT and work at something I truly enjoy.

To me it seems Australians feel that the luxuries of life are now rights, and all are entitled to a plasma in every room, a playstation / xbox for all, at least an overseas holiday every year and all the rest.

The media panders to this, politicians pander to this. I'm sick of it. If we don't change, soon enough we'll bankrupt ourselves.

 

[sptrawler]

You'll get no argument from me on your post, sydboy. We are breeding a nation of incompetent wusses, incapable of taking personal responsibility for anything.

+1, except for pollies who are taking exceptional responsibility for their welfare.LOL

 

[pixel]

Sydboy,
I'm soooo with you!

We weren't quite as dirt-poor as you when I grew up; it was my father, who paid the price for working hard to put food on the table, pay my medical bills (no private health fund when I was a kid), and put me through High School. His health ruined, he didn't make it past 52. So Mum went back to work, in order to keep me in Uni. Like you, I too worked - luckily I scored jobs that were IT-related, so were not only comparatively well-paid, but gave me a leg-up into the industry I'd be working in after graduating to MSc.

If taxes were spent on true "Common Wealth", I wouldn't mind.
It's the vote-buying, spin-doctoring, pandering to minorities, and rorting parliamentary privileges that I detest.
I detest to see criminals being housed, clothed, and entertained obligation-free; living better than the families, whom they robbed of a bread-winner.
I detest young Australians being sent into unwinnable conflicts, yet their families left with but a token support when they come back in a casket or physically and/or mentally broken. Same with fire brigades, police, health workers, ...
I detest money being wasted on TV commercials, disguised as "education campaigns", to warn people AGAINST the danger of drugs, smoking, drink-driving, gambling... when it would be far more effective to restrict advertising FOR all those dangerous pastimes in the first place.

I reckon we've got our priorities all wrong when kids are told of their rights, yet never face any consequences when they abuse those rights. Why is the teacher sued for assault when he clouts a troublemaker behind the ears? Why are the toys handed to the kids under the "education revolution" used to access "Social Media", gaming, and bullying?

Our taxes pay for all that! No wonder Gina and Clive are so p1$$ed off and would prefer to retain the profits to re-invest in productive enterprises that give more people the opportunity to work for a living!

 

[sptrawler]

Sydboy,
I'm soooo with you!

We weren't quite as dirt-poor as you when I grew up; it was my father, who paid the price for working hard to put food on the table, pay my medical bills (no private health fund when I was a kid), and put me through High School. His health ruined, he didn't make it past 52. So Mum went back to work, in order to keep me in Uni. Like you, I too worked - luckily I scored jobs that were IT-related, so were not only comparatively well-paid, but gave me a leg-up into the industry I'd be working in after graduating to MSc.

If taxes were spent on true "Common Wealth", I wouldn't mind.
It's the vote-buying, spin-doctoring, pandering to minorities, and rorting parliamentary privileges that I detest.
I detest to see criminals being housed, clothed, and entertained obligation-free; living better than the families, whom they robbed of a bread-winner.
I detest young Australians being sent into unwinnable conflicts, yet their families left with but a token support when they come back in a casket or physically and/or mentally broken. Same with fire brigades, police, health workers, ...
I detest money being wasted on TV commercials, disguised as "education campaigns", to warn people AGAINST the danger of drugs, smoking, drink-driving, gambling... when it would be far more effective to restrict advertising FOR all those dangerous pastimes in the first place.

I reckon we've got our priorities all wrong when kids are told of their rights, yet never face any consequences when they abuse those rights. Why is the teacher sued for assault when he clouts a troublemaker behind the ears? Why are the toys handed to the kids under the "education revolution" used to access "Social Media", gaming, and bullying?

Our taxes pay for all that! No wonder Gina and Clive are so p1$$ed off and would prefer to retain the profits to re-invest in productive enterprises that give more people the opportunity to work for a living!

Well said Sails.

 

[Smurf1976]

My last electricity bill for a 3 adult share house was averaging just 7kwh / day - 617Kwh in total. What shocked me on the bill was that a single person avg was supposedly 943, and a 4 person was avg a whopping 1753. What are these households doing to be such energy hogs

I'll take a guess that you are in NSW or SE Qld somewhere near the coast and that you probably have non-electric (gas, solar, whatever) hot water?

Try swapping that for an all-electric (no gas etc) house in harsher climate and see how you go.

My house is empty all day Monday to Friday but I still went through about 10,000 kWh just for heating over the past 12 months. About half that was actual electricity and the rest is wood.

That said, I do agree with your underlying sentiment. Middle class welfare is a ridiculous situation that needs to go and do so promptly. That would, of course, lead to less taking (tax) and less giving (welfare) and is just what we need.

 

[Julia]

Sydboy,
I'm soooo with you!

We weren't quite as dirt-poor as you when I grew up; it was my father, who paid the price for working hard to put food on the table, pay my medical bills (no private health fund when I was a kid), and put me through High School. His health ruined, he didn't make it past 52. So Mum went back to work, in order to keep me in Uni. Like you, I too worked - luckily I scored jobs that were IT-related, so were not only comparatively well-paid, but gave me a leg-up into the industry I'd be working in after graduating to MSc.

If taxes were spent on true "Common Wealth", I wouldn't mind.
It's the vote-buying, spin-doctoring, pandering to minorities, and rorting parliamentary privileges that I detest.
I detest to see criminals being housed, clothed, and entertained obligation-free; living better than the families, whom they robbed of a bread-winner.
I detest young Australians being sent into unwinnable conflicts, yet their families left with but a token support when they come back in a casket or physically and/or mentally broken. Same with fire brigades, police, health workers, ...
I detest money being wasted on TV commercials, disguised as "education campaigns", to warn people AGAINST the danger of drugs, smoking, drink-driving, gambling... when it would be far more effective to restrict advertising FOR all those dangerous pastimes in the first place.

I reckon we've got our priorities all wrong when kids are told of their rights, yet never face any consequences when they abuse those rights. Why is the teacher sued for assault when he clouts a troublemaker behind the ears? Why are the toys handed to the kids under the "education revolution" used to access "Social Media", gaming, and bullying?

Our taxes pay for all that! No wonder Gina and Clive are so p1$$ed off and would prefer to retain the profits to re-invest in productive enterprises that give more people the opportunity to work for a living!

Great post, pixel. So agree with all you say.

Well said Sails.

Um, it was pixel, not sails.

So Cynical, I expect you will never move on from your capacity to only see anyone doing better than yourself as rich and undeserving. Sydboy has given a clear account of the circumstances he came from, and great credit to him if he's now earning well. Maybe try to emulate such people.

 

[sptrawler]

Great post, pixel. So agree with all you say.


Um, it was pixel, not sails.

LOL, reading too many posts.
Sorry Pixel, it was a great post and how come you didn't come up something enlightening sails?

As you say Julia, Sydboy, should be proud of the fact he has achieved a lifestyle his parents would wish for him.
How someone can try and put down people who strive to better themselves is beyond me, and is more a sad reflection of their own failings.

 

[drsmith]

Only those who are unemployed or who have reached retirement age need welfare.

Every other element of tax transfer is churn.

 

[pixel]

Only those who are unemployed or who have reached retirement age need welfare.

Every other element of tax transfer is churn.

Agree totally that retirees should receive a decent pension - ideally, as has been the case some time in the past, from tax revenue. After all, they've paid their share all through their working lives, so they ought to be entitled to receiving it back in old age. Instead, our gov'mint has turned around 180 degrees, even taxing the pensioners along with all welfare recipients 10% GST on all of life's necessities.

I also agree that the unemployed need assistance to get back on their feet; but they shouldn't be mollycoddled either. Not wanting to move to where the jobs are mustn't be an excuse to keep claiming a need.

If a youngster can't earn a living as a professional surfer, why not try picking fruit or trimming grapevines. Tons of fruit are being wasted for lack of pickers and/or prohibitively high "minimum wages" and penalties. Put the Collingwood or Dockers membership on hold while you can't afford it; use the mobile phone for emergencies only and as a means to be contacted if there is a job opening.

Reward effort, not a claimed entitlement.

PS: LOL, sptrawler and Julia; I had been wondering when you'd notice

 

[sptrawler]

Agree totally that retirees should receive a decent pension - ideally, as has been the case some time in the past, from tax revenue. After all, they've paid their share all through their working lives, so they ought to be entitled to receiving it back in old age.

Reward effort, not a claimed entitlement.

PS: LOL, sptrawler and Julia; I had been wondering when you'd notice

This is the difference between the British, Canadian and Australian sytem, when they originally were based on the same system.
Australia has gone the the means testing way, whereas U.K, Canada and Germany have maintained the system of, when you have paid in you qualify for a minimum pension.
Here we have been brainwashed into believing if you have money you don't need a pension.

Well how does that encourage participation in the workforce?
If you stay on welfare all your life, you get a pension.
If you spend all your money, you get a pension.
If you travel the world all your working life, you get a pension.
If you blow your money on V8 cars and partying, you get a pension.

If you do without, save your money. You lose or get a reduced pension.
If you forego holidays, fishing trips, buy cheap bunky cars. You lose or get a reduced pension.

In Germany you get a pension commensurate with years in the workforce. To a maximum of 900euros/mth(I believe).

So have we got it right who knows, at the moment you need to have $800,000 in the bank at 4% to get the equivelent of the pension.
To do that a worker has to forego a lot of lifestyle, why bother?

Maybe our system is past its useby date and people should be told if you don't work, you don't get a pension, or a pension comensurate to their years of employment. This really applies currently, when we are importing workers on visas OMG
Obviously there would be exceptions for disabilities etc. However why should able bodied people qualify if they haven't attempted to contribute?

 

[pixel]

T why should able bodied people qualify if they haven't attempted to contribute?

that's the crux of the matter IMHO:
If someone hasn't given a damn where the money comes from,make it quite clear that society won't give a damn about how he/she gets support. And to balance the ledger, should they get caught "helping themselves" to other people's assets, lock them up and make them work for their keep and compensation. If that means they'll weave baskets or cut recycled tyres into thongs - so be it. No TV, gameboys, or nose hair trimmers for them until their debt has been paid off. Society is better off without leeches!

btw in Germany, the pension started out as a "Generation Contract", whereby the current working generation would pay the pensions for the workforce of the previous generation; that has, however, been somewhat eroded since Bismarck introduced it. The working generation's contributions had to cover an average of 5 years as life expectancy ran at around 70 years; based on 50 years' working life, that amounted to about 10% "premium" - or less if the funds were invested and bore interest until needed. Meanwhile, the calculation has been blown out of the water and the premium has increased to more like 50%, seeing that working life has been reduced to an average of 40-45 years, but past065 life expectancy is about 85 years. Hence German pensions are no longer based on what the individual has paid in, but what can be distributed from the kiddie.

 

[Bill M]

I also agree that the unemployed need assistance to get back on their feet; but they shouldn't be mollycoddled either. Not wanting to move to where the jobs are mustn't be an excuse to keep claiming a need.

This point is so true. I live on the Central Coast, about 80 to 110kms north of Sydney (depending on suburb). The trip to Sydney by car is 1 hr or you can use the train which is a good service. There is a lot of youth unemployment here so they say. In Sydney however there are several jobs going unfilled particularly on the Northern Beaches, I know this because I have worked there most of my life and I still here the complaints from friends that certain jobs can't be filled. Some are skilled jobs and some aren't, these are jobs like waitresses, bar staff, taxi drivers, kitchen hands, bus drivers, shop assistants, warehouse workers etc.. Why is it mature aged people are willing to drive from the Central Coast to earn a wage but the younger people roam around the streets doing nothing? They have no excuse for not attempting to get one of these jobs.

Why are we paying younger people to sit around in a 2 br shack on the river drinking beer whilst there are real jobs waiting to be filled only an hour and a half away in Sydney? We are talking about able bodied healthy young normal people here. When I was a lad there was no way my Mum or Dad was ever going to let me sit around doing nothing, how things have changed.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

I am now in the process of spending all my hard earned money.

I see no reason why some slob who has never worked a day in his or her life, should have better care in old age than I.

Anyone who ends up in their 70's or 80's, anything but penniless is a mug.

Neither the ALP nor the Libs have any interest in cutting back on slob freeloaders.

So my answer is soixante neuf, as long as you are not too arthritic.

gg

 

[stewiejp]

Australians seem to have stopped taking responsibility for their actions, and want to blame anyone else but themselves when life gets a bit tough.

Great point syd. As taxpayers, citizens and effectively shareholders in this wonderful country, we all should be concerned how our taxes are spent. It pisses me off to no end hearing people say the "government" should pay for this or that.... it seems they don't realise if the "government" pay for it, it is us (taxpayers) who pick up the bill eventually.

It doesn't matter is you pay $1500 a year in tax, $30k or millions, I think having a healthy interest in where that money goes is a good thing. If this wonderful country (and it is still wonderful), was run efficiently we would have the highest standard of living in the world.

Just my 2c.